John 3:16-17 what does it tell us?

Brightfame52

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I answered that in my previous post.



... or that Christ doesn't love every person.

The classic answer is. Did Christ only love Paul?

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
— Galatians 2:20

Does the word "world" (kosmos) refer to the Church elsewhere?
Still havent answered.
 
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World often refers to the bad things of the world.

And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
— John 8:23

Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
— John 12:31

Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
— 1 John 2:15


So I believe the world in John 3:16 is the fallen world, all sinners in the world.

I never said otherwise. I am not suggesting that the word “world” does not have various different meanings. Many words are like that in the Bible.

Even the meaning you have given for the word “world” in 1 John 2:15 is backed up in the 1913 Webster's Dictionary.

World | Definition of World by Webster's Online Dictionary

Sons of God in the Old Testament generally referred to angels (Job 2:1) (Job 38:7), yet in the New Testament, we find it refers to believers (Philippians 2:15) (1 John 3:2). They are called homonyms in English. They are words that look and sound the same, but they have different meanings based on the use of the context. My point is that the word “world” has never referred to a select group of believers in the Bible or even within the dictionary in the English language. So the Calvinist is changing the word “world” beyond the context and beyond what that word means to fit a belief they want to be true.

Obviously John 3:16 is referring to the majority of almost all sinners in the world throughout history (With the exception of those who worship the beast whose names were not in the book of life since the foundation of the world - Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8).
 
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zoidar

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Still havent answered.

I have, you just don't like my answer.

Eph 5:25 says Jesus loves his Church.

Scripture says Jesus loves every single person in this world.

Before we are saved there is a general love. When we are saved there is an intimate love.

Are you happy with that answer?
 
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Brightfame52

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I have, you just don't like my answer.

Eph 5:25 says Jesus loves his Church.

Scripture says Jesus loves every single person in this world.

Before we are saved there is a general love. When we are saved there is an intimate love.

Are you happy with that answer?
You still havent answered the question according to Eph 5:25 !
 
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zoidar

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You still havent answered the question according to Eph 5:25 !

Eph 5:25 doesn't say who in the world Christ loves. That's been my point all along. That's why I believe your question is a logical fallacy. And I did answer it. Jesus loved and died for his Church as Eph 5:25 states. What Eph 5:25 doesn't state is that Jesus loved and died for those that is not yet part of the Church.
 
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zoidar

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zoidar

This is a false statement, never found in scripture !

If Jesus died as an antoning sacrifice for every person in the world, then that's the only statement I need for God loving every single person.

So the real question is whom Jesus was an atoning sacrifice for. I say it was for everyone, you say the elect.
 
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Brightfame52

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Eph 5:25 doesn't say who in the world Christ loves. That's been my point all along. That's why I believe your question is a logical fallacy. And I did answer it. Jesus loved and died for his Church as Eph 5:25 states. What it doesn't state is that Jesus loved and died for those that is not yet part of the Church.

So its specific as to who Christ Loved and died for in Eph 5:25, His Church ! Thats the God so Loved !
 
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Brightfame52

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If Jesus died as an antoning sacrifice for every person in the world, then that's the only statement I need for God loving every single person.

So the real question is whom Jesus was an atoning sacrifice for. I say it was for everyone, you say the elect.
Again, you made a false statement, nowhere does it specifically say "Scripture says Jesus loves every single person in this world."
 
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zoidar

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Again, you made a false statement, nowhere does it specifically say "Scripture says Jesus loves every single person in this world."

No, it's not said in that way. Do you find the scripture specifically say God is a triune God?

What scripture says is what it communicates (don't know if I use the word correct), not what it "says" in letters. Also I said "if" and I meant "if".
 
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zoidar

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So its specific as to who Christ Loved and died for in Eph 5:25, His Church ! Thats the God so Loved !

I asked you a question you didn't answer:
"Does the word "world" (kosmos) refer to the Church elsewhere?"
 
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zoidar

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I never said otherwise. I am not suggesting that the word “world” does not have various different meanings. Many words are like that in the Bible.

Even the meaning you have given for the word “world” in 1 John 2:15 is backed up in the 1913 Webster's Dictionary.

World | Definition of World by Webster's Online Dictionary

Sons of God in the Old Testament generally referred to angels (Job 2:1) (Job 38:7), yet in the New Testament, we find it refers to believers (Philippians 2:15) (1 John 3:2). They are called homonyms in English. They are words that look and sound the same, but they have different meanings based on the use of the context. My point is that the word “world” has never referred to a select group of believers in the Bible or even within the dictionary in the English language. So the Calvinist is changing the word “world” beyond the context and beyond what that word means to fit a belief they want to be true.

Obviously John 3:16 is referring to the majority of almost all sinners in the world throughout history (With the exception of those who worship the beast whose names were not in the book of life since the foundation of the world - Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8).

I know you didn't say anything else. Just wanted to share my view. :)
 
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Don Maurer

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zoidar, I am not sure how I got here or what thread this is. I saw you sent an Email and clicked on it.
Also, I should mention to others, that I do not intend to engage anyone that comes along. I am reformed or so called Calvinistic in doctrine and I am aware how negatively that can be viewed.

zoidar, you asked how I see the term "world" in John 3:16. Let me begin with the choices. Reformed people generally begin with a wide understanding of the term as having a lot of different possibilities. Calvinism and John 3:16? <-- This article gives 11 different possible uses. The most extensive article on this is in John Owen's book, "the death of death in the death of Christ." He lists about 20 or 30 if I remember right.

There are uses of the term "world" that speak only of non-elect. Look at texts like John 17:9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world,
There are 3 more uses in John 3:17. Would you require each of those uses to mean all men everywhere at all times?
How about John 1:10. The term world appears there. Do you require that use of the term to mean all men everywhere? Christ made all men everywhere? No man anywhere ever knew Christ? On the other hand, you would have to say Christ is in all men everywhere!!
How about John 13:1-2? Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.

So then, if the term world always means each and every man that ever lived, then Christ departed out of each and every man that every lived.

Once you agree that it is within the possible range of meaning to understand the term "world" in other ways, then you are going to have to ask what in the context of John 3:16 determines the meaning of the term "world."

I would think that the term "world" in verse 17 should be understood the same as the term "world" in verse 16 when Christ says... "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world but that the world might be saved through Him."

This world in verse 17 cannot be judged. That is not why God sent Christ. No judgement must ever come upon the world in verse 17. Rather, the world is to be saved.

I do not see any possible middle ground in John 3:16. If the term "world" means each and every person that every lived, then you have a universal salvation doctrine where each and every person who ever lived goes to heaven. The Gospel and faith then have no meaning.

What in the context do you think forces anyone to believe that the term "world" must mean all those who ever lived?
 
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zoidar

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zoidar, I am not sure how I got here or what thread this is. I saw you sent an Email and clicked on it.
Also, I should mention to others, that I do not intend to engage anyone that comes along. I am reformed or so called Calvinistic in doctrine and I am aware how negatively that can be viewed.

zoidar, you asked how I see the term "world" in John 3:16. Let me begin with the choices. Reformed people generally begin with a wide understanding of the term as having a lot of different possibilities. Calvinism and John 3:16? <-- This article gives 11 different possible uses. The most extensive article on this is in John Owen's book, "the death of death in the death of Christ." He lists about 20 or 30 if I remember right.

There are uses of the term "world" that speak only of non-elect. Look at texts like John 17:9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world,
There are 3 more uses in John 3:17. Would you require each of those uses to mean all men everywhere at all times?
How about John 1:10. The term world appears there. Do you require that use of the term to mean all men everywhere? Christ made all men everywhere? No man anywhere ever knew Christ? On the other hand, you would have to say Christ is in all men everywhere!!
How about John 13:1-2? Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.

So then, if the term world always means each and every man that ever lived, then Christ departed out of each and every man that every lived.

Once you agree that it is within the possible range of meaning to understand the term "world" in other ways, then you are going to have to ask what in the context of John 3:16 determines the meaning of the term "world."

I would think that the term "world" in verse 17 should be understood the same as the term "world" in verse 16 when Christ says... "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world but that the world might be saved through Him."

This world in verse 17 cannot be judged. That is not why God sent Christ. No judgement must ever come upon the world in verse 17. Rather, the world is to be saved.

I do not see any possible middle ground in John 3:16. If the term "world" means each and every person that every lived, then you have a universal salvation doctrine where each and every person who ever lived goes to heaven. The Gospel and faith then have no meaning.

What in the context do you think forces anyone to believe that the term "world" must mean all those who ever lived?

Hi brother,

Glad to see you. I will respond when I have a little more time. Can we take it over PM (and coffee ^_^)? Figured that would be better.
 
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Brightfame52

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No, it's not said in that way. Do you find the scripture specifically say God is a triune God?

What scripture says is what it communicates (don't know if I use the word correct), not what it "says" in letters. Also I said "if" and I meant "if".
I know its not said that way, because its not true !
 
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Brightfame52

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I asked you a question you didn't answer:
"Does the word "world" (kosmos) refer to the Church elsewhere?"
Yes whenever its used in the context of Salvation ! The Church is the World Christ Loved and died to save ! For instance Jn 3:17

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
 
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zoidar

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Yes whenever its used in the context of Salvation ! The Church is the World Christ Loved and died to save ! For instance Jn 3:17

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Thanks for responding to that! I don't remember where we started. Is there anything more to add?

Look, just as you know, I didn't start this thread to "debunk" Reformed faith. I wanted to see possible ways to understand John 3:16. I was not really planning to debate a Christian of Reformed faith, but I know it often leads to that when questions on God's love and atonement are raised.
 
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Brightfame52

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Thanks for responding to that! I don't remember where we started. Is there anything more to add?

Look, just as you know, I didn't start this thread to "debunk" Reformed faith. It wanted to see possible ways to understand John 3:16. I was not really planning to debate a Reformer, but I know it often leads to that when questions on God's love and atonement are raised.
Okay !
 
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