The State Run Sardisean

rockytopva · Jul 14, 2021

I believe the churches were birthed in the ages. As I believe all these churches are Christian churches I do not mind to visit or read into them. I also believe that as these churches are birthed in ages, that changes could occur within a movement. A Baptist church can be Sardisean, Philadelphian, or Laodicean, depending on the leadership. As Christ could see into the future so he gave the last word on what he would see as seven churches.

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

Ephesus - Messianic
Smyna - Martyr - Foxes book of martyrs has the persecutions as ten
Pregamos - Orthodox - Pergos is a tower, needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholic - Took form with Constantine
Sardis - Protestant - Took form with Martin Luther
Philadelphia - Revived - Non-Violent with men like John Bunyan.
Laodicean - Mainly independent churches birthed post 1900

The difference between the Sardisean and the Philadelphian

1. The Sardisean could end up state run
2. The Sardisean could end up very violent

The Religion Act 1592 was an Act of the Parliament of England. The Act imprisoned those over the age of sixteen who failed to attend Anglican Church; persuaded others to do the same; denied Queen Elizabeth's authority in religious matters; and who attended unlawful religious meetings without bail. The Act was cognisable in the Court of High Commission. If, after offending, they did not conform in the next three months, they would be exiled from England forever.

If you read into the life of John Bunyan he would spend a great deal of time in prison for "devilishly and perniciousy abstained from coming to church to hear divine service" and having held "several unlawful meetings and conventicles, to the great disturbance and distraction of the good subjects of this kingdom." And at some points he was afraid for his very life.

The Religious Act - Example of the Sardisean way of thinking
John Bunyan - And his writings - Examples of the Philadelphian way of life.

rockytopva · Jul 14, 2021

Martin Luther could also show signs of being Sardisean. In two of his later works, Luther expressed antagonistic, violent views towards Jews and called for the burnings of their synagogues and their deaths. His rhetoric was not directed at Jews alone but also towards Roman Catholics, Anabaptists, and nontrinitarian Christians.

"That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it. ... Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine ... For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? ... Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches ... and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound ... to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders ... Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then ... we conclude that ... the stubborn sectaries must be put to death." -Martin Luther

"My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it. The rulers must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs." - Martin Luther from the book "On the Jews and their Lies"

rockytopva · Jul 14, 2021

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. - Revelation 3:4

Did John Calvin defile his garments in toasting Michael Servetus?

“Neither God nor his Spirit have counselled such an action. Christ did not treat those who negated him that way.” - Italian poet Camillo Renato on the Servetus execution

“To kill a man is not to protect a doctrine, but it is to kill a man.” - French humanist Sébastien Chateillon on the Servetus execution

“I consider it a serious matter to kill men because they are in error on some question of scriptural interpretation, when we know that even the elect ones may be led astray into error.” - Michael Servetus

In 1908 a monument to Servetus was erected in the French city of Annemasse, some three miles [5 km] from the spot where he died. An inscription reads: “Michel Servetus, . . . geographer, physician, physiologist, contributed to the welfare of humanity by his scientific discoveries, his devotion to the sick and the poor, and the indomitable independence of his intelligence and his conscience. . . . His convictions were invincible. He made a sacrifice of his life for the cause of the truth.”

And to try to bail himself out of hot water Calvin says... "Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory."

It seemed like Calvin himself would pay for such criminal deeds as his health receded in his fifties.

Fatally ill, and with blood flowing from his mouth, the 54 year-old pastor-theologian was carried to Saint Pierre in a chair. He was a man acquainted with pain. He suffered from terrible hemorrhoids, asthma, kidney stones, pulmonary tuberculosis, and gout. Fever was a consistent companion, and now he had ruptured blood vessels in his lungs due to his violent coughing spells. This same month he wrote of his tribulations to the doctors of Montpellier:

"But at that time [20 years ago] I was not attacked by gout, knew nothing of the stone or the gravel, was not tormented with the gripings of colic nor afflicted with piles nor threatened with haemorrhages. At present all these enemies charge me like troops. As soon as I recovered from a quartan fever, I was taken with severe and acute pains in my calves, which, after being partly relieved, returned a second and then third time. At last they turned into a disease of the joints, which spread from my feet to my knees. An ulcer in the haemorrhoid veins long tortured me ..." - John Calvin

I think Calvin messed up big time in having Servetus executed. Possibly even to the extent to his immortal soul.

rockytopva · Jul 14, 2021

And in proceeding to think that the Sardisean church may have been born with John Wycliffe. In reading the man I find good works such as the translations of the bible to English. In reading into the times of Wycliffe I find more war and bloodshed. In reading of the Peasant's revolt of 1381, "Londoners detested John of Gaunt because he was a supporter of the religious reformer John Wycliffe, whom the London public regarded as a heretic."

I believe the Sardius stone as being a red precious stone that may have existed in the garden of Eden....

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. - Ezekiel 28:13

If the Sardisean church favored the precious stone I would think of good qualities as well such as a well dressed people. But, my gosh, what a violent time!

com7fy8 · Jul 14, 2021

rockytopva said:
I think Calvin messed up big time in having Servetus executed. Possibly even to the extent to his immortal soul.

If he did that, I would say that was wrong.

And I would be concerned not only with that one event, but with how any person would need to spend years becoming in order to be able to do that. It would not be how I need to become in order to be qualified to "take care of the church of God" > 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

How did our Apostle Paul handle heretics . . . if, of course, they really were heretics?

"For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you." (1 Corinthians 11:18-19)

He does not say kill those heretics and divisive people. He says, in my opinion, of course

, God can use the wrong people to make the approved leaders look good.

This is a basic of Christianity . . . how we enjoy how God turns evil for our good, and uses even evil people to bring about His good. This is a basic of how ones understand the crucifixion of Jesus. God used that for such good so opposite to all the Satanic ones were trying to do.

So, did John Calvin ever say anything like this? In any case, in case he was a wrong person, this does not mean that every one of his teachings was totally wrong.

After all . . . in my opinion . . . our Apostle Paul does reveal that God has predestined people, that God is in all-control . . . maybe more than a number of predestination people claim. People can so argue only about who is in control, because control is an idol of ego. But Paul talks about how we are destined to be conformed to the image of Jesus > Romans 8:29 > not only that God is in control. Plus, he says he focuses on this which is God's objective of predestination >

"Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily." (Colossians 1:28-29)

So, how much does John Calvin talk about how to be perfected in Jesus? Or, does he give attention mainly to other things and punishing people who disagree with him? Meanwhile, ones can be so busy with disagreeing with John, and this can distract them from giving attention to how to be perfected in Jesus. Both "sides" of an argument can be wrong, then, decoying attention away from God's focus and rightful meaning of His word.

Hammster · Jul 14, 2021

The seven churches in Revelation are just literal churches at the time of John’s writing. There’s no exegetical way to conclude that they represent some sort of church age.

Pioneer3mm · Jul 14, 2021

rockytopva said:
I believe the churches were birthed in the ages. As I believe all these churches are Christian churches I do not mind to visit or read into them. I also believe that as these churches are birthed in ages, that changes could occur within a movement. A Baptist church can be Sardisean, Philadelphian, or Laodicean, depending on the leadership. As Christ could see into the future so he gave the last word on what he would see as seven churches.

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

Ephesus - Messianic
Smyna - Martyr - Foxes book of martyrs has the persecutions as ten
Pregamos - Orthodox - Pergos is a tower, needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholic - Took form with Constantine
Sardis - Protestant - Took form with Martin Luther
Philadelphia - Revived - Non-Violent with men like John Bunyan.
Laodicean - Mainly independent churches birthed post 1900

The difference between the Sardisean and the Philadelphian

1. The Sardisean could end up state run
2. The Sardisean could end up very violent

The Religion Act 1592 was an Act of the Parliament of England. The Act imprisoned those over the age of sixteen who failed to attend Anglican Church; persuaded others to do the same; denied Queen Elizabeth's authority in religious matters; and who attended unlawful religious meetings without bail. The Act was cognisable in the Court of High Commission. If, after offending, they did not conform in the next three months, they would be exiled from England forever.

If you read into the life of John Bunyan he would spend a great deal of time in prison for "devilishly and perniciousy abstained from coming to church to hear divine service" and having held "several unlawful meetings and conventicles, to the great disturbance and distraction of the good subjects of this kingdom." And at some points he was afraid for his very life.

The Religious Act - Example of the Sardisean way of thinking
John Bunyan - And his writings - Examples of the Philadelphian way of life.

Interesting topic.
----
"The Religion Act 1592 was an Act of.."
Maybe we need to be reminded..that part of
history again.
----
Note:
Many of early settlers in North America came..
- From England and Continent..
- To escape persecution from the 'State & Church Establishments'.

rockytopva · Jul 14, 2021

Pioneer3mm said:
Interesting topic.
----
"The Religion Act 1592 was an Act of.."
Maybe we need to be reminded..that part of
history again.
----
Note:
Many of early settlers in North America came..
- From England and Continent..
- To escape persecution from the 'State & Church Establishments'.

Many of early settlers in North America came..
- From England and Continent..
- To escape persecution from the 'State & Church Establishments'.

Wow! I did not think of that! Good point! Thank you!

com7fy8 · Jul 14, 2021

Hammster said:
The seven churches in Revelation are just literal churches at the time of John’s writing. There’s no exegetical way to conclude that they represent some sort of church age.

Whether they were all at the time of Jesus, or have been at different times along history . . . or both . . . I see how any of them could somehow be wrong in ways that I could be wrong. So, I need to watch my own self for any of these things.

Also, I notice another thing. For each church, Jesus seems to have the same basic things to say about all the people in each church. So, even if they might be wrong, they might have unity!! Possibly, this is a message and warning of how everyone in a same church could just go along with everyone else and all be wrong together in some same way.

So, I see we need to evaluate our own selves in a church, and not just self-congratulatingly check everyone else out. And evaluate if we are following the right example and leadership.

Our Apostle Paul does say >

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

And humble people, then, will welcome us to evaluate them and things they say and do.

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

Humble leaders take the lead in how to be humble and to welcome prayerful and honest evaluation.

But a church can become a culture of conforming to what others expect to see and hear.

So, not only did churches need to stop what was wrong, but they needed to find out how to do what is right instead of only conforming to each other in some different way.

The Liturgist · Aug 1, 2021

Hammster said:
The seven churches in Revelation are just literal churches at the time of John’s writing. There’s no exegetical way to conclude that they represent some sort of church age.

I agree entirely. The problem with Revelations is people tend to read too much into it. For example, recall the moral panic in the 80s about magnetic strip cards like room keys and credit cards, or microchips (not even RFID tags, no, just “microchips” because they were new, powerful and scary-sounding.

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The State Run Sardisean

rockytopva

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rockytopva

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rockytopva

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rockytopva

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com7fy8

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Hammster

Psalm 144:1

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Pioneer3mm

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rockytopva

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com7fy8

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The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian

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