Purpose of the sabbath

OldWiseGuy said:

It says what it says.

Click to expand...

Says the expert in Koine Greek

OldWiseGuy said:

Matthew 4:15 is the fulfillment of Isaiah 9. It pertains only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel living in the region of Galilee of the Gentiles.

Also germane is Romans 9:24-26.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles (nations, tribes).

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

This is the fulfillment of the same prophecy, of Osee (Hosea), that the remnant of the house of Israel would be reconciled to God. This was Jesus' commission from God the Father.

Click to expand...

Speaking about those who are not God's people is not referring to those who are god's people, but to those who are not, namely Gentiles.

BobRyan said:

Moses said it was 7 days in Gen 2:1-3, then in Ex 20:11 in the Sabbath commandment legal code we see that the 7 days at Sinai are set equal to the 7 days in Gen 2 in terms of time. "Six days you shall labor..for in six days the Lord made". Same author, same subject, a clear meaning to Moses' readers. In fact Exodus 16 "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" - then emphasized for 40 years that no food would be showing up on Sabbath. this literal fact was well ingrained without any ambiguity.

God says "the seventh day IS the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10

By contrast some people will say "This Sabbath Rest is timeless and has no relation to any calendar event."

So choose which source you wish to follow

Question -- who are those in the Trinity " trying to tie believers down to a particular day"?

Testing/questioning/evaluating doctrinal claims "sola scriptura" goes all the way back to Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

Mark 7:6-13 Jesus shows how this is done "sola scriptura" when it came to the traditions and commandments of men - among the Jewish leadership

Click to expand...

The matter of God Himself resting in the seventh day of creation and inviting us through obedience to enter His Sabbath Rest is quite different than Him appointing a calendar day as a 'shadow' of what was to come in Christ.

Carl Emerson said:

The matter of God Himself resting in the seventh day of creation and inviting us through obedience to enter His Sabbath Rest is quite different than Him appointing a calendar day as a 'shadow' of what was to come in Christ.

Click to expand...

Carl, your contradicting yourself here and the scriptures. You say we enter into Gods rest through obedience so how can we enter into Gods rest by being disobedient to God's law? Secondly it is impossible for God's 4th commandment Sabbath to be a shadow of anything. How can God's 4th commandment be a "shadow law of things to come" (Colossians 2:17) when it points backwards to the finished work of creation and not forward to things to come (see Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11)? Gods Sabbath was made for all mankind before there was sin and any shadow laws under Gods plan of salvation so how can it be a shadow law of things to come when there were no "shadow laws" or a plan of salvation when there was no sin? According to the scriptures God's 4th commandments is a memorial of the finished work of creation, which starts off by saying "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.." *Exodus 20:8. There was no sin, no law when God made the Sabbath for all mankind. According to the scriptures God's 4th commandment "seventh day Sabbath" is a memorial (pointing backwards) to the finished work of creation. Something to pray and think about here.

Danthemailman said:

I did not imply they were all Jews as I pointed out in post #112. Being right or wrong about that is not what’s most important. What is most important is that we don’t make the same fatal mistake the Judaizers made as I also pointed out in post #112.

Click to expand...

Again, WE were not discussing that. WE were discussing if the group in question in our discussion were former pagans or Jews. You clearly said they were Jews when clearly they were former pagans. Paul says they now know God and not to go back to their pagan "elemental" practices. That was all I commented on.

LoveGodsWord said:

You say we enter into Gods rest through obedience so how can we enter into Gods rest by being disobedient to God's law?

Click to expand...

Through the obedience of Christ we have salvation and His rest.

Carl Emerson said:

Through the obedience of Christ we have salvation and His rest.

Click to expand...

Carl there is no scripture that says Jesus kept God's law so that we no longer have to just the same as there is no scripture that says Jesus is a Sabbath. On the other hand the scriptures teach that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath in Mark 2:28 that he made for all mankind in Mark 2:27 and that Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath is the "seventh day" of the week in Exodus 2:10 and that Jesus is our example that we should believe and follow in his steps in *Matthew 16:24; 1 Corinthians 11:1; Matthew 10:38; 1 Peter 2:21. We ought to believe and obey God's Word according to the scriptures (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29. Now was there a reason you did not address the post you are quoting from in post # 184 linked or do you agree that God's 4th commandment cannot be a shadow of anything?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Again, WE were not discussing that. WE were discussing if the group in question in our discussion were former pagans or Jews. You clearly said they were Jews when clearly they were former pagans. Paul says they now know God and not to go back to their pagan "elemental" practices. That was all I commented on.

Click to expand...

What is it you think elemental practices is?
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Apparently Paul himself when he and his contemporaries were under the law, it being their Schoolmaster until Christ were in bondage to these elements.

So you think that the days mentioned are related to their pagan worship and not to the ones subscribed to in the Book of the Law?

Have you noticed Paul's use of the 2nd person and 1st person plural? Do you think all of a sudden he is speaking to a different group of people?


Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?


How is it then that the ones being spoken to are being zealously affected but not good by Judeans or Israelites if the days mentioned are not of the Book of the Law.

Gal 4:17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.

And how is it that they desire to be under the law if the days, months and years are not of the law?
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

LoveGodsWord said:

there is no scripture that says Jesus is a Sabbath.

Click to expand...

When did I say Jesus is a Sabbath ??

LoveGodsWord said:

God's 4th commandment cannot be a shadow of anything.

Click to expand...

Fine, we come back to the same point then - your theology judges the majority of believers today.

He say's...

1. Acts 2:21
   And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
   
   
2. Romans 10:13
   for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

You say...

Believers who do not keep the Seventh Day Sabbath are in rebellion to the Law and are anathema.

Forgive me if I incorrectly summarise your position and feel free to correct me...

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Again, WE were not discussing that. WE were discussing if the group in question in our discussion were former pagans or Jews. You clearly said they were Jews when clearly they were former pagans. Paul says they now know God and not to go back to their pagan "elemental" practices. That was all I commented on.

Click to expand...

I did not clearly say they were "all" Jews and I have even heard certain misguided teachers of the law describe the churches of Galatia as a mixture of Jews, Romans, Greeks and Gauls. There are those who were mixed up in a multiplicity of pagan superstitions and rituals, yet Paul also wrote to the Galatians to counter Judaizing false teachers who were undermining the central theme of justification by faith in Christ and were adding works of the law to the equation, as we see in Galatians chapter 3.

Carl Emerson said:

When did I say Jesus is a Sabbath ?

Click to expand...

I see. So your saying Jesus is not the Sabbath? Sorry I thought that was what you were trying to argue. As shown through the scriptures already it is impossible for the Sabbath to be a shadow law because it points backwards not forwards to things to come.

Carl Emerson said:

Fine, we come back to the same point then - your theology judges the majority of believers today.

Click to expand...

Not at all dear friend what do you think John 12:47-48 means?

Carl Emerson said:

He say's...

1. Acts 2:21
   And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
   
   
2. Romans 10:13
   for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

You say... Believers who do not keep the Seventh Day Sabbath are in rebellion to the Law and are anathema. Forgive me if I incorrectly summarise your position and feel free to correct me...

Click to expand...

Actually I said no such thing. I have only ever posted the scriptures which are Gods' Words not my words and we should believe and follow them according to the scriptures (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29). It is God's Word not my words that says sin is the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4 and God's 4th commandments is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken according to Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and 1 John 3:4. James says if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. God however does not hold us accountable for sin until he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we choose to reject it in order to continue in known unrepentant sin according to James 4:17 and Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31. We are also told in the scriptures in Hebrews 10:26-31 that if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Now all of these are God's Words not my words Carl. Something we should take seriously and pray about don't you think? Now all these are Gods' Word not my words what is it here that you do not believe?

Hope this is helpful.

Danthemailman said:

I did not clearly say they were "all" Jews and I have even heard certain misguided teachers of the law describe the churches of Galatia as a mixture of Jews, Romans, Greeks and Gauls. There are those who were mixed up in a multiplicity of pagan superstitions and rituals, yet Paul also wrote to the Galatians to counter Judaizing false teachers who were undermining the central theme of justification by faith in Christ and were adding works of the law to the equation, as we see in Galatians chapter 3.

Click to expand...

Cmon, Dan you got caught out trying to claim that Galatians 4 was talking about God's "seventh day Sabbath" applying it to Jewish believers when the scriptures were talking about gentile believers returning to gentile pagan practices. Well that is the way I read your post and it seems others read it that way as well and tried to challenge you on your mistake here. Correct me if I am wrong? You were trying to argue that Galatians 4 is about the Sabbath when it has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

Here lets look at the scriptures and what it is referring to from the old and new testament scriptures and context added back in...

GALATIANS 4:4-11
[4], But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
[5], To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
[6], And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
[7], Therefore you are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
[8], BUT THEN, WHEN YOU KNEW NOT GOD, YOU DID SERVICE UNTO THEM WHICH BY NATURE ARE NO GODS.
[9], BUT NOW, AFTER YOU HAVE KNOWN GOD, OR RATHER ARE KNOWN OF GOD, HOW TURN YOU AGAIN TO THE WEAK AND BEGGARLY ELEMENTS, TO WHICH YOU DESIRE AGAIN TO BE IN BONDAGE?
[10], YOU OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS.
[11], I AM AFRAID FOR YOU, LEST I HAVE BESTOWED UPON YOU LABOR IN VAIN.

Note v8-9 Paul is stating that these Galatians are returning back from following God to when they knew not God to serve those things that are not God to which they were previously in bondage to before they came to know God (important context). Galatians 4 says nothing about sabbaths. Its speaking of gentile believers returning back the pagan practices of observing days, months years and times. If the Galatians are mainly a gentile audience v8-11 cannot be talking about them returning to the Jewish law but as the Jews who followed the law for salvation to be bondage of sin and not the righteousness which is by faith. v9 talking to Gentiles cannot mean they are returning to the law again as they did not know the law. It is to the bondage of sin that they are returning to by seeking their righteousness through trying to obey the law outside of faith that is the problem here.

Let's look at what pagan practices Paul is referring to from the Old covenant forbidden by old testament law...

DEUTERONOMY 18:9-11 [9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, OR AN OBSERVER OF TIMES, or an enchanter, or a witch,[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Note: The same thing goes on to this very day. Its speaking of the occult. Those who observe certain days by use of horoscopes?

2 CHRONICLES 33:3-6 [3] For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.[4] Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.[5] And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: ALSO HE OBSERVED TIMES, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger

Note: Enchantments, witchcraft, familiar spirits, and wizards. Its speaking of the occult. Not following sabbath days.

LEVITICUS 19:26-30 [26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, NOR OBSERVE TIMES.[27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.[29] Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.[30] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

I guess this scripture says it all. You shall not observe times BUT you will keep my sabbaths. Galatians 4 has nothing to do with God's 4th commandment Sabbath. Its talking about gentile believers returning to paganism observing times and seeking to get their righteousness from the law and not through faith in Christ.

Hope this is helpful.

Carl Emerson said:

Believers who do not keep the Seventh Day Sabbath are in rebellion to the Law and are anathema.

Forgive me if I incorrectly summarise your position and feel free to correct me...

Click to expand...

How could that not be his position since the SDA church teaches that the 7th day sabbath is the seal of God and that those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday will receive the mark of the beast.

Sabbath as Seal of God
Mark of the Beast

I've heard multiple former Adventists tell me that for an Adventist to give up the 7th day sabbath, is essentially giving up salvation unless they should return to the 7th day sabbath, which explains a lot.

Danthemailman said:

How could that not be his position since the SDA church teaches that the 7th day sabbath is the seal of God and that those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday will receive the mark of the beast.

Sabbath as Seal of God
Mark of the Beast

I've heard multiple former Adventists tell me that for an Adventist to give up the 7th day sabbath, is essentially giving up salvation unless they should return to the 7th day sabbath, which explains a lot.

Click to expand...

Not really Dan your spreading misinformation again from the word of website right after I provided a post for clarification. What do you think James 4:17 and Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and Hebrews 10:26-31 mean? I will leave that between you and God to work through you do not have to answer the question if you do not want to.

Soyeong said:

Speaking about those who are not God's people is not referring to those who are god's people, but to those who are not, namely Gentiles.

Click to expand...

I guess we differ in our understanding of the subject.

OldWiseGuy said:

I guess we differ in our understanding of the subject.

Click to expand...

Why do You think God chose Israel if not to be a light to all of the nations? When God promised to Abraham that through his seed all of the nations of the earth would be blessed, then what sense does it make to think only his physical descendants will be blessed?

LoveGodsWord said:

As shown through the scriptures already it is impossible for the Sabbath to be a shadow law because it points backwards not forwards to things to come.

Click to expand...

So you don't believe in eternal rest for the souls of the saved?

Sadly we will go round and round because you believe your interpretation of scripture is God's Word and pretend to present scripture only.

Your interpretation is condemning the vast majority of believers and as such there are serious consequences for dividing the Body of Christ. (1 Cor 11:29)

I will leave it there...

Maybe it is your turn to think and pray seriously about it as you encourage others to do.

Carl Emerson said:

So you don't believe in eternal rest for the souls of the saved?

Click to expand...

And where did I ever say I do not believe in eternal rest for the souls that are saved and what has this got to do with what you are quoting from?

Carl Emerson said:

Sadly we will go round and round because you believe your interpretation of scripture is God's Word and pretend to present scripture only.

Click to expand...

For me, he must increase and I must decrease. I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure but many do not hear when they close their eyes to see and their ears to hear.

Carl Emerson said:

Your interpretation is condemning the vast majority of believers and as such there are serious consequences for dividing the Body of Christ. (1 Cor 11:29) I will leave it there... Maybe it is your turn to think and pray seriously about it as you encourage others to do.

Click to expand...

According to the scriptures, whosoever commits sin is a servant of sin. If the son shall make you free you shall be free indeed. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. We are sinners indeed but we have a Saviour for those that our Heavenly father have given ears to hear and eyes to see.

If our eyes are not open we cannot see the Garden of Eden or the paradise of God. Sin closes our eyes and makes us blind but seeking Jesus can open the blind eyes to see and the deaf to hear. Truly, truly, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. I say unto you, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not says Jesus, that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind blows where it wants, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell where it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

Do you know these scriptures Carl? I left the references out this time. Are they my words or God's Word? If they are God's Word should we believe them? Funny how people cry interpretation, interpretation when they do not want to hear the Word of God as written in Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:15-16 and Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27. I will leave it between you and God to work through as I do not judge you and of course you are free to believe as you wish as we all answer only to God come judgement day for the Words of God we accept or reject according to John 12:47-48.

Take care.

Soyeong said:

Why do You think God chose Israel if not to be a light to all of the nations? When God promised to Abraham that through his seed all of the nations of the earth would be blessed, then what sense does it make to think only his physical descendants will be blessed?

Click to expand...

In general the gospel was presented to the Jews first (who rejected it),
then to 'lost' Israel, who accepted it with gladness,
then to the Gentile world.

HIM said:

What is it you think elemental practices is?
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Apparently Paul himself when he and his contemporaries were under the law, it being their Schoolmaster until Christ were in bondage to these elements.

So you think that the days mentioned are related to their pagan worship and not to the ones subscribed to in the Book of the Law?

Have you noticed Paul's use of the 2nd person and 1st person plural? Do you think all of a sudden he is speaking to a different group of people?


Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

How is it then that the ones being spoken to are being zealously affected but not good by Judeans or Israelites if the days mentioned are not of the Book of the Law.

Gal 4:17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.

And how is it that they desire to be under the law if the days, months and years are not of the law?
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Click to expand...

Those Galatians, who Paul was speaking to, were former pagans. THAT is the context of the text in our discussions. You are conflating 2 different issues. Pagans did not know God, Jews did. Paul would have NEVER said that if they were Jews.