How to perfectly understand...."born again".

Sidon said:

God's Grace is God sending Christ to the Cross for your sin, so that by this sacrifice you can be reconciled to God.

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And I agree with being saved by God's grace, but I am not sure we agree on the different aspects of being saved by God's grace.

God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

You said:

commandments cant do that for you.

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Then forget about God's grace saving you because 1 John 3:23 says that believing in Jesus is a commandment.

You said:

law cant do that for you.

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Then forget about being saved by God's grace through faith because there is a thing called the Law of Faith (Romans 3:27). For we cannot be saved without faith because without it is impossible to please Him (God) (See: Hebrews 11:6).

You said:

water baptism can't do that for you.

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I believe water baptism was a part of the Old Covenant and it ended after Christ's death. The New baptism is by the Spirit.

See this thread here to learn more with Scripture (if you are interested):

What is the “one baptism” mentioned in Ephesians 4:5? (Note: I am not asking because I don't know).

You said:

mary can't do that for you

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*Sigh* I am not Catholic. I believe praying to Mary and or the saints is wrong because it is making them out to be like gods (When only God has the power to be able to receive prayer alone). Just look at my profile and it says non-denom (i.e. non denominational). In fact, I am strongly against Catholicism. I am Sola Scriptura or Bible alone. But you are not because you have to cut out certain parts of the Bible to believe what you do.

You said:

sacraments and the eucharist can't do that for you.

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Again, I am not a Catholic. I just read and believe my Bible. I am against man made traditions by the Catholic church or any kind of church for that matter. So I reject the sacraments that are exclusive to the Catholic church and their version of the Lord's supper.

You said:

what can do that for you?

Jesus said...>"you must. be born again".

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Right, if you are born again you will be a new creation in Christ. This new creation in Christ cannot justify sin on any level. Yet, you say that you are saved solely by believing in the finished work of the cross or the blood of Jesus. If that is the case, then sin and or living holy has no part in your salvation and thus as a result, it would be turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

Sidon said:

Not at all.

I would never teach that faith is the savior.

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No offense, but this has got to be at the top ten list of some of the most ridiculous things I have heard from another believer. First, you make claims of things that I never said.
Second, the statement you made is utter non-sense or an ad homninem that does not exist.
Most Christians know faith is in God and His Word.
I never heard of any Christian ever claiming to have faith in faith without God if that is indeed what you are were suggesting.

Jesus says, “Have faith in God.” (Mark 11:22).
If we trust in Jesus and His grace for salvation, we are having faith in God.
If we are doing what God commands of us according to His Word, we are having faith in God.

For other readers who want to actual know more about faith according to the Bible, check out this thread here:

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith

You said:

We are not saved by "faith".
We are saved by God, through faith.

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While I am not advocating your silly false claim against me that suggests that faith is not in God, your average student of God's Word (KJB) knows that the words “by faith” appear in a good number of places in the Bible.

Here is just a sampling from the Bible.

1. sanctified by faith that is in me.
2. The just shall live by faith.
3. justified by faith
4. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace
5. Because they sought it not by faith,
6. and thou standest by faith.
7. For we walk by faith, not by sight
8. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain,
9. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
10. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Source:
Key word search on “by faith” at: BlueLetterBible

Thats not faith doing it,..... that's God doing it, because we gave Him what He requires to give us "the gift of righteousness", and the "gift of Salvation".

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I have already stated in this thread to you before that God does the good work in the believer (See: Philippians 2:13, and John 15:5). So you are simply not reading what I wrote and you are making false claims of things I do not believe. But God does not force us to do His will, though. We have to cooperate with God. We can refuse in doing God's will even after being born again. Our lack of aligning with God's will or failing to do what He says should only show whether or not we truly know the Lord Jesus (See again: 1 John 2:3-4).

You said:

See, there is a unique type of legalism that teaches this..

"If i hold unto my faith, then i go to heaven"...."if i lose my faith, i go to hell".

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It's not legalism to obey God according to His Word.
Anyways, how do you interpret the following verse using the Bible?

“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.” (1 Timothy 6:12).

Note: I am not really expecting a good answer from you on this because that is not how you have operated thus far. I only ask the question to show our readers the bankrupcy of your belief.

You said:

God says...>"if you are born again, you are already "ONE WITH GOD">.

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No. That is actually what you say and not what God's Word (the Bible) says unless you have a butchered paraphrased Modern Translation of the Bible. Please quote the exact verse that says what you just said.

You said:

It really simple.
Whatever it is that you believe keeps you out of hell, is your savior.
For most people, this legalism is a list of "if i dont do that, and if i always do that'.... = NO JESUS FOUND THERE.

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Well, then you are against Jesus because our Lord clearly taught “thou shalt not commands” in Matthew 19:16-19, and our Lord agreed with a lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-28).

Paul basically says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

So, this other type of legalism, is "Faith in Faith", vs Faith in Christ.
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This is your false claim of which I never stated.
What Christian on earth even believes having...


I have never heard of any Christian believing this way. For nowhere did I ever state such a thing. So this is merely a false accusation on your part.

Let say I asked a real believer this........"if you know you are to die in 4 seconds, what are you trusting in to get you to heaven".????
The real believer says....>"only Jesus".

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Believing in Jesus is more than just believing in the person of Jesus for salvation but it is believing in everything He taught, said, and did, too. For Jesus says why do you call me, Lord, Lord if you do not what I say? (See: Luke 6:46).

Jesus basically says in Matthew 7:26-27 that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

One part of John 12:48 basically says that if anyone does not receive the words of Jesus, those words will judge them on the last day. Which words of Jesus can judge a person on the last day? See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28.

The heretic, the "fallen from Grace".... the deceived, .......what comes to their mind is......"sacraments". "water baptism"..."Mary"......"did i keep all the commandments".... "Have i endured to the end">....
See all that?

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This only shows that you are not reading my posts. Again, I am not a Catholic, and or Orthodox. I am strongly against adding traditions to the Bible.

As for commandment keeping and eternal life:

Please read 1 John 3:23, 1 John 2:3-4, John 14:5, 1 Corinthians 16:22, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, etc.

That is not faith is Jesus, that is faith in SELF EFFORT. (legalism) (fallen from Grace)
That is SELF Righteousness.....or trying to be right with God, by SELF.

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No doubt you believe this way because of verses like Romans 11:6. For Romans 11:6 says, “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

But Paul is referring to “Works ALONE Salvationism” and he is not referring to how we need to enter the Sanctification Process after we are saved by God's grace. For the apostle Paul also teaches us in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 that the call of the gospel is that God has chosen us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief of the truth, too. Paul also teaches us that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

You said:

Here is something that most "christians" and all unbelievers do not understand.
Its not sin that damns you, its self righteousness.
Its trying to get to God by SELF, when Jesus told you that "I AM THE WAY".

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You have not offered any Scripture verses to prove your case. When I read Jesus, I see Him describing to us how certain sins can condemn us in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, etc.

So it simply appears you do not agree with the words of Jesus in the Bible.

The apostle Paul says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

The apostle Paul says: “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

Also see: 1 John 2:3-4.

Many today fail to understand that those in the kingdom can be cast out because of their sin.

We see this truth expressed in Matthew 13:41-42.


To put it to you another way, Matthew 13:41-42 is saying that the Son of man (i.e. Jesus) will one day send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that “offend” (i.e. anything that makes others to sin - see Matthew 18:6 in the KJV and Darby Translation), and those people who do iniquity (i.e. sin or wrongdoing), and they will be thrown (cast) into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire) where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Note: Gnashing of teeth is what wolves do when they growl sometimes).

In other words, the angels of Jesus are going to gather out of HIS kingdom all those who justify sin in some way and they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. So a person can be in the kingdom and later they are cast out.

Holding to any form of Belief Alone-ism leads to some kind of level of justifying sin in some way or turning God's grace into a license for immorality. A self professing Christian does not have to be a raging drunk, prostitute, axe murderer in order to be condemned by God. Remember, it only took one sin for Adam to fall spiritually and to lead to the fall of all of mankind from God. Ananias and Sapphira were condemned by God for their sin of lying to the Spirit because a great fear came upon the church and all who heard of what happened to them.

If a person just tells a child that they are saved by believing in the finished work of the cross or in the blood of Jesus to be saved alone and it is nothing that they do and you never see them again, they could potentially grow up to think they can live an excessively sinful lifestyle while under God's grace by this kind of message.

So this is why Sanctification (holy living by the Spirit) plays a part in God's plan of salvation after we are saved by God's grace. In fact, this is what the Bible teaches (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Romans 8:13, Hebrews 12:14).

Dear @Sidon

You are not heeding at least a few of the verses in the Word of God I have posted to you said.
You are instead repeating your own words as if they are the word of God, when they are not.

Seeing this is the case, I am going to move on in talking to you directly so as to prevent any heated feelings, and to keep the peace in a Bible discussion. Instead I will address any content within your post (if I feel I need to) as if I was speaking generally to a crowd. I say this because you are making up things about what I believe and that leads to you repeating yourself in what you said already. But let the Word of God stand above what you and even I say.

God's Word stands.

May you be well in the Lord Jesus (even if we disagree strongly on what God's Word actually says).

Bible Highlighter said:

Dear @Sidon

You are not heeding at least a few of the verses in the Word of God I have posted to you said.
You are instead repeating your own words as if they are the word of God, when they are not.

Seeing this is the case, I am going to move on in talking to you directly so as to prevent any heated feelings, and to keep the peace in a Bible discussion. Instead I will address any content within your post (if I feel I need to) as if I was speaking generally to a crowd. I say this because you are making up things about what I believe and that leads to you repeating yourself in what you said already. But let the Word of God stand above what you and even I say.

God's Word stands.

May you be well in the Lord Jesus (even if we disagree strongly on what God's Word actually says).

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Let me bring some fresh, I hope, thoughts into this discussion)) What if nobody is born again yet because to be born again means to be risen up by the Holy Spirit? What do you think about this?

Nux said:

Let me bring some fresh, I hope, thoughts into this discussion)) What if nobody is born again yet because to be born again means to be risen up by the Holy Spirit? What do you think about this?

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If you are suggesting in being taken home to be with God, I would have to disagree, my friend.

For John 2:29 says,
“If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.” (1 John 2:29).

So we can identify the one who is born of God (past tense) in the fact that they do righteousness.

Bible Highlighter said:

So we can identify the one who is born of God (past tense) in the fact that they do righteousness.

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Lets not dive to deep into all that tenses for now. I just want to say that it is our fleshy body that was born from the flesh for the first time, so, logically, it must be our body which needs to be born again not from the flash but from the Holy Spirit in order that we may become able to enter into the Kingdom of God. Hmmm?

Nux said:

Lets not dive to deep into all that tenses for now. I just want to say that it is our fleshy body that was born from the flesh for the first time, so, logically, it must be our body which needs to be born again not from the flash but from the Holy Spirit in order that we may become able to enter into the Kingdom of God. Hmmm?

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1 John 2:29 refers to a person who does righteousness as being born of God already. How do you interpret that verse? Surely it is not referring to them being born again in some future point in their life because they do righteousness. If that was the case, then 1 John 2:29 would say, “...you know that everyone who practices righteousness will be born of Him.” But 1 John 2:29 does not say that. It says:


This sentence is talking about a present reality of a born again person, and not some future one.

Bible Highlighter said:

1 John 2:29 refers to a person who does righteousness as being born of God already. How do you interpret that verse? Surely it is not referring to them being born again in some future point in their life because they do righteousness. If that was the case, then 1 John 2:29 would say, “...you know that everyone who practices righteousness will be born of Him.” But 1 John 2:29 does not say that. It says:

“If you know that He is righteous, you know that
everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.”
(1 John 2:29).​

This sentence is talking about a present reality of a born again person, and not some future one.

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Yep, there are some difficulties. I know because I've already discussed these matters with a friend of mine. And I've found although not very short and simple but quite reasonable explanations, or at least partial explanations, for the controversy you've mentioned. But now I'm about the internal logic of Jesus' words. The figure of speech Jesus used is quite self-explanatory. That's why Nicodemus immediately asked him whether it is possible to enter the second time into his mother’s womb to be born again. And Jesus didn't correct him except that he must be born not of the flesh but of the Holy Spirit. So I believe he was talking about the complete transformation of our body, of the hole our self , resurrection, when by the work of the Holy Spirit we will be made completely new, free of the sinful flesh, and so, been made perfect enter the Kingdom of God. God's intention I believe is to make us into spiritual beings like he is. And then Jesus describes these spiritual beings in John 3:8, and summarizes: "So is everyone who is born of the Spirit". The one who is born of the Spirit, spirit is. Not the human's spirit inside of us but completely new spiritual form of being like both God and Jesus are. Seams like Paule teaches the same in 1Co. 15:50-56, 1Co. 15:42-46

Bible Highlighter said:

1 John 2:29 refers to a person who does righteousness as being born of God already. How do you interpret that verse? Surely it is not referring to them being born again in some future point in their life because they do righteousness.

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Telling briefly. There are several... entities, (I'm not English speaking so sorry for somewhat unnatural language) for example "salvation", "eternal life", "second birth" which Jesus and apostles used to spoke about in present tense as if we already possess them, although we actually aren't yet. It was a figure of speech expressing firm and unbreakable promise or certainty. We'll certainly get all that things in their fullness at Jesus' second coming. Google "already but not yet" for more info. That is not where I've derived my understanding from but seems like the meaning is quite similar.

Nux said:

Telling briefly. There are several... entities, (I'm not English speaking so sorry for somewhat unnatural language) for example "salvation", "eternal life", "second birth" which Jesus and apostles used to spoke about in present tense as if we already possess them, although we actually aren't yet. It was a figure of speech expressing firm and unbreakable promise or certainty. We'll certainly get all that things in their fullness at Jesus' second coming. Google "already but not yet" for more info. That is not where I've derived my understanding from but seems like the meaning is quite similar.

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When I read 1 John 2:29, it does not sound metaphorical or like a figure of speech. It refers to a person already born again and we can tell that by the fact that they do righteousness. You want to interpret it some other way for your own reasons. But we have to believe the whole counsel of God's Word.

Bible Highlighter said:

When I read 1 John 2:29, it does not sound metaphorical or like a figure of speech. It refers to a person already born again and we can tell that by the fact that they do righteousness. You want to interpret it some other way for your own reasons. But we have to believe the whole counsel of God's Word.

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You haven't even tried to compare 1Cor 15 and John 3. Ok

Nux said:

You haven't even tried to compare 1Cor 15 and John 3. Ok

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And you have not dealt with what 1 John 2:29 plainly says. It's not figurative. It means what it says.

Nux said:

Yep, there are some difficulties. I know because I've already discussed these matters with a friend of mine. And I've found although not very short and simple but quite reasonable explanations, or at least partial explanations, for the controversy you've mentioned. But now I'm about the internal logic of Jesus' words. The figure of speech Jesus used is quite self-explanatory. That's why Nicodemus immediately asked him whether it is possible to enter the second time into his mother’s womb to be born again. And Jesus didn't correct him except that he must be born not of the flesh but of the Holy Spirit. So I believe he was talking about the complete transformation of our body, of the hole our self , resurrection, when by the work of the Holy Spirit we will be made completely new, free of the sinful flesh, and so, been made perfect enter the Kingdom of God. God's intention I believe is to make us into spiritual beings like he is. And then Jesus describes these spiritual beings in John 3:8, and summarizes: "So is everyone who is born of the Spirit". The one who is born of the Spirit, spirit is. Not the human's spirit inside of us but completely new spiritual form of being like both God and Jesus are. Seams like Paule teaches the same in 1Co. 15:50-56, 1Co. 15:42-46

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Paul is talking about the resurrection of given us believers a new spiritual immortal body (like that of angels) in the Rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:42-56. Nothing is said here in reference to being born again spiritually. It's a spiritual resurrection and not a spiritual birth.

Bible Highlighter said:

Paul is talking about the resurrection of given us believers a new spiritual immortal body (like that of angels) in the Rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:42-56. Nothing is said here in reference to being born again spiritually. It's a spiritual resurrection and not a spiritual birth.

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I read it once again yesterday and both John 3 and 1 Cor 15 say the same things using the same words. The reason why you are talking about some "born again spiritually" is a general modern tendency to "spiritualise" things which are literal in the gospel. This is why "spiritual" eternal life, Kingdom of God, resurrection, salvation, second birth and so on are currently taught instead of the real once. It is so desirable for many to have God's gifts right now in this temporary life even if those real things been "spiritualised" turn into fake. Jesus constantly taught about resurrection and eternal life and never about some "spiritual second birth" as it is understood nowadays. Paul using the same words plainly taught about resurrection. The source of his teaching is obvious and it is enough for me. Yes, I haven't dealt with 1 John 2:29 yet

Nux said:

I read it once again yesterday and both John 3 and 1 Cor 15 say the same things using the same words. The reason why you are talking about some "born again spiritually" is a general modern tendency to "spiritualise" things which are literal in the gospel. This is why "spiritual" eternal life, Kingdom of God, resurrection, salvation, second birth and so on are currently taught instead of the real once. It is so desirable for many to have God's gifts right now in this temporary life even if those real things been "spiritualised" turn into fake. Jesus constantly taught about resurrection and eternal life and never about some "spiritual second birth" as it is understood nowadays. Paul using the same words plainly taught about resurrection. The source of his teaching is obvious and it is enough for me.

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So you tell other believers that you are not born again?
If so, that does not sound right.

You said:

Yes, I haven't dealt with 1 John 2:29 yet

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I think you need to deal with it because it does not agree with your way of thinking here.