How to perfectly understand...."born again".

Sidon said:

The verses are fine, its your interpretation that is the problem for you.

Click to expand...

There is nothing to interpret. They mean what they say plainly. Can you explain those verses in how you interpret them beyond their plain meaning?

Sidon said:

If there is no NT< there is always the finished work of : Christ on the Cross.

Click to expand...

I say that the New Testament is a part of the faith because faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

So if this true, then you need to accept the following verses by faith.

For after we are saved by God's grace....

1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
   
   
2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
   
   
3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
   
   
6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
   
   
8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
   
   
10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

There is your salvation offered as a "gift" and found by "as many as Believe".

Click to expand...

And like all good gifts in life, they come with responsibilities.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Here is another example:

If Billy-Bob prayed for a wife for many years and he eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean Billy-Bob can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with him. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

Sidon said:

If there is no NT< there is always the finished work of : Christ on the Cross.

Click to expand...

Also, there is no verse that talks about how our only responsibility in salvation is to believe in the finished work of the cross. No such verse exists. On the contrary, 1 John 1:7 is a verse that you keep ignoring that refutes your belief. It says walk in the light an the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. By the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11, we learn that walking in the light is loving your brother. This is confirmed in the fact that 1 John 3:10 says that he that does not love his brother is not of God. So while we need to believe in the blood for salvation (Romans 3:25), we also need to love our brother in order for the blood to cleanse us from sin, too (See again 1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:9-11, and 1 John 3:10). But you can keep repeating an unbiblical belief to yourself that is not true if you like (Despite what Scripture says).

Bible Highlighter said:

I am sorry. What you preach sounds a lot like Easy Believism.

Click to expand...

Sidon said:

God's Grace is Free.
Its offered as a Gift.
This could not be any easier for a person to believe and receive.

Click to expand...

You were the one who said you don't hold to Easy Believism. If all you do is have to believe in the finished work of the cross for salvation that sounds like Easy Believism to me. Your response here does not explain away your contradictory statements that you have been making. As for God's grace being a gift that is free. I agree that God's grace is free and it is offered as a gift, too. But as life teaches us, gifts come with responsibilities. We see these responsibilities can cause us to lose our gift if we do not take care of our gift (i.e. Jesus Christ who lives inside us). How so?

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:


Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:



And here is a list of potential fallen believers:


Even the Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

So after we receive the gift of salvation, it does not mean we cannot lose it. This is why we have to be faithful unto death.

Sidon said:

5. """But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."""

Find a dictionary and look up. "worketh not".

If you can understand this, then let us know.

Click to expand...

Romans 4:5 is talking about the 1st aspect of salvation in being saved by God's grace. Why was Paul talking this way? Because Christians were being deceived by Jews into thinking they had to be circumcised in order to be initially and or foundationally saved (Instead of initially and foundationally being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ). I call this heresy, “Circumcision Salvationism.” We can see this heresy defined for us at the Jerusalem council here:

1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
   
   
2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
   
   
3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Paul also fought against Circumcision Salvationism:

1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
   
   
2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
   
   
3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
   
   
4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
   
   
5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
   
   
6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
   
   
7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
   
   
8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
   
   
9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

For if a Christian thought they had to be circumcised to be initially saved, they would be making salvation based upon a work or the Old Law (i.e. the 613 Laws of Moses). We are under a New Covenant with New Commands. So Paul was condemning “Law ALONE Salvationism” and he was not condemning in how we need to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance. For we are told that the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Sidon said:

Ask your mother to explain to you the reason, why you can't stop being born.

Now apply that to a person who is born again.

Find your answer there, if you truly care to know.

Click to expand...

To be born into this world means to come into this world and be alive. One can stop being in this world and stop being alive by dying. A Christian can die spiritually if they justify sin.

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD,

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

“If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:” (Psalms 66:18).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication,, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Sidon said:

Those are your words.

Here are mine.

"OSAS" is a deceit that started in the 1st century, as defined by JUDE, that was created by men who are of the devil, who came and began to teach that Paul said.....>"let us sin, so that grace may about".

Click to expand...

You basically condemned Easy Believism.

For you said in post #125, I quote:

You said:

So, what that does, is, it deceives believers into the idea that God's Grace, is a license to sin, when the Gospel of the Grace of God is taught as "the Gift of Salvation, without works", which is indeed the true Gospel.

Click to expand...

Paul was referring to the 1st aspect of salvation and in how we are foundationally saved (Which is by God's grace).

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5).

Paul was referring to Works ALONE Salvationism and not works of faith (Which is a part of the faith) after we are saved by God's grace.

For make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too. Simply click on the following spoiler button to check out the verses.

Sidon said:

You dont stop being born if you die.
You just stop being alive.

Click to expand...

Why would Jesus convince Nicodemus to be born again if it was something that was of out of his power? So analogies like these are not always an exact fit within reality unless you believe Jesus literally has hinges like a door. For Jesus is referred to as a door. We are referred to as sheep by our Lord. Do you have wool?

Sidon said:

Can you explain why all you can do is state lame innuendo, no quotes, no verses, to try to make believe that you know what you are talking about?
Go there first, and solve that, and then get back with me, for an honest discussion, if you can handle that one.

Click to expand...

Well, I only call out things like I see them. First, I am not attacking you as a person or your life, but I am only criticizing your hermeneutics because this gets at the heart of the matter as why we both disagree over what I Bible says. Second, the majority of my posts are with Scripture, dear sir. In this particular post you are quoting: I am asking you to explain the verses that I put forth to you, and your reply is with remarks like this instead of explaining the Bible.

I would like for you to explain these verses in how they work in your view of salvation.

Here are the verses.

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Again, how do these verses work in your belief?

Sidon said:

You answered your own Question.

Jesus would not tell YOU, that "you must be born again", if this was not possible.
And He should know, as its by His sacrifice that we have the Gospel created that offers the "gift of Salvation" to all who "BELIEVE".

Click to expand...

I am not asking you what born again means. I was born again in 1992 when I accepted Christ as my Savior. I was a new person with new desires at that point in my life. But I never had the mindset that I can do evil or be my own Lord and master with the thinking I was saved all because I had a belief alone on Jesus Christ or some imaginary saying that says to believe on the finish work of the cross and I am good to go to Heaven. For just believing in Jesus alone or the finished work of the cross alone for salvation will lead a person to treat God's grace as a license for immorality on some level. A person can just justify one sin and they can be condemned by God. This is why salvation is not as you suggest.

My point is that if being born again is something out of our control as you propose, then Jesus would not have told Nicodemus to be born again. So this tells us that this kind of birth is not a precise parallel of our physical birth. It may be similiar in some ways but it is not exact because we had to do something in order for God to change our heart spiritually. This something we did was receive the Word of God in being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. This is the 1st aspect of salvation. No man can save themselves by their deeds alone without God's grace. A person's past slate of sin needs to be wiped out first in order to walk with the Lord and allow Him to do the good work through Him.