The phenomenon and the explanation

pitabread · Jul 10, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
I suppose that is a useful way to see them, but that fellow goes so far as to say that there is no law of causality.

There is no law of causality in physics.

Ponderous Curmudgeon · Jul 10, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
haha ok. No, although, I hadn't expected to win the day. It's kind of funny to me how often people (not just me) think they 'won the day' when their opponent thinks THEY won!

I speak often in generalities, as doing particulars asks for examples I don't have right off hand. I do wish I knew how to show that the philosophical doesn't always imply metaphysical, or at least, supernatural, in such things. Unfalsifiable things seem hard for some people to think about.

Today I answered one guy who I'm thinking will be surprised to find that laws of physics indeed are governing principles and not simply our descriptions of how things work, no matter how poorly or incompletely we describe or understand them. No doubt from one POV it is just begging the question to say they govern. I suppose that is a useful way to see them, but that fellow goes so far as to say that there is no law of causality. I would be curious how well all cosmologists agree if they were all put together to answer some of the statements I've heard over the last few years —I'm curious how fast the conversation would turn philosophical.

One fellow I've talked with quite a bit says that the law of conservation of energy, being just as pervasive as the law of causality, shows that an eternal universe is just as reasonable as first cause. He seems to think that the words, "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed", of themselves mean that Creation cannot have happened.

Ah, yes another non-scientist telling us what laws mean in science.

Subduction Zone · Jul 10, 2021

pitabread said:
There is no law of causality in physics.

I have been worried to death that he might find the super secret Wikipedia article on The Law of Causality. I guess I can relax, That law will remain secret from creationists.

What I want to know is who blabbed? Who told creationists about The Law of Causality in the first place?

Mark Quayle · Jul 10, 2021

pitabread said:
There is no law of causality in physics.

Ooookay. Let me put it another way. Is there causality in physics? Does it follow certain rul... er generalities? Am I safe to say there is causality even in quantum physics?

pitabread · Jul 10, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Ooookay. Let me put it another way. Is there causality in physics? Does it follow certain rul... er generalities? Am I safe to say there is causality even in quantum physics?

There is the concept of causality in physics, but it doesn't always follow consistent rules: In the quantum realm, cause doesn’t necessarily come before effect | New Scientist

(This is one reason I don't find First Cause arguments particularly compelling.)

AV1611VET · Jul 10, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Who told creationists about The Law of Causality in the first place?

The first Noel did.

Subduction Zone · Jul 10, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Ooookay. Let me put it another way. Is there causality in physics? Does it follow certain rul... er generalities? Am I safe to say there is causality even in quantum physics?

For some reactions yes. For all reactions no. And no, there does not appear to be causality in quantum physics. That is a realm of probabilities.

Subduction Zone · Jul 10, 2021

AV1611VET said:
The first Noel did.

Noel who? Noel Coward is an actor. He is the only one that I can think of off the top of my head.

Mark Quayle · Jul 10, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
For some reactions yes. For all reactions no. And no, there does not appear to be causality in quantum physics. That is a realm of probabilities.

Yet, only one thing ever happens.... probabilities is guessing, no? So, only one thing CAN ever happen. There are laws of logic there, I hope.

AV1611VET · Jul 10, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Noel who? Noel Coward is an actor. He is the only one that I can think of off the top of my head.

Who came first? Noel Coward or his parents?

Mark Quayle · Jul 10, 2021

pitabread said:
(This is one reason I don't find First Cause arguments particularly compelling.)

That cause doesn't always come before effect, is the reason you don't find First Cause arguments particularly compelling?

Subduction Zone · Jul 10, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Yet, only one thing ever happens.... probabilities is guessing, no? So, only one thing CAN ever happen. There are laws of logic there, I hope.

No, probabilities is not guessing. You may guess. Probabilities are statistical outcomes. And no, quite often something can happen or something will not happen. A simple example is that of radioactive decay. It can happen at any time. When and if it happens is a matter of statistics.

Laws of logic are man made laws. They are tools that we invented to help us to understand the universe that we live in better. I don't think that you are applying those correctly either.

Subduction Zone · Jul 10, 2021

AV1611VET said:
Who came first? Noel Coward or his parents?

Sorry, you said that it was Noel that did it. Not his parents.

Mark Quayle · Jul 10, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
No, probabilities is not guessing. You may guess. Probabilities are statistical outcomes. And no, quite often something can happen or something will not happen. A simple example is that of radioactive decay. It can happen at any time. When and if it happens is a matter of statistics.

Laws of logic are man made laws. They are tools that we invented to help us to understand the universe that we live in better. I don't think that you are applying those correctly either.

I hope I feel properly put in my place.

Mark Quayle · Jul 10, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Sorry, you said that it was Noel that did it. Not his parents.

Hint. That's not the first Noel.

Subduction Zone · Jul 10, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Hint. That's not the first Noel.

I had a feeling that was not the case. For some reason I don't think that he first Noel could have done what AV accused him of. AV does have a terrible track record when it comes to such accusations.

Ponderous Curmudgeon · Jul 10, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Hint. That's not the first Noel.

so who was, father, mother, grandfather etc?

Mark Quayle · Jul 10, 2021

Ponderous Curmudgeon said:
so who was, father, mother, grandfather etc?

I have no idea. Don't remember ever hearing of the rascal. I knew Alfred, though.

Subduction Zone · Jul 10, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
I hope I feel properly put in my place.

It would be nice if you did not accuse others of doing what you appear to do. Statistics is not guessing. Guessing would be saying "this event will happen . . . " and then name a specific time frame. That would be guessing. To say that half of a specific element will decay in a specified time frame can be an accurate statistical description of what will happen.

Mark Quayle · Jul 10, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
It would be nice if you did not accuse others of doing what you appear to do. Statistics is not guessing. Guessing would be saying "this event will happen . . . " and then name a specific time frame. That would be guessing. To say that half of a specific element will decay in a specified time frame can be an accurate statistical description of what will happen.

Ok, I guess....

The phenomenon and the explanation

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SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

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