Creationists: How does creation explain the existence of parasites?

Freth · Jul 10, 2021

From what I'm reading, flatworms in general have a very short life span outside of a host body. This brings into question, at least in my own mind, how flatworms could live long enough to develop such a complex two-host life cycle. Given time, the flatworms should have died out. This then brings up another "paradoxical" problem. In order for the flatworm to have a life cycle, snails and birds must exist ahead of time.

The ultimate end of this questioning, to me, is when did snails come into existence, when did birds come into existence and when did flatworms come into existence. Here you have a trifecta of requirements and near impossible odds for said flatworms to develop such a complex life cycle, let alone survive at all, given their short life span outside of host bodies.

To me, it seems like insurmountable odds have to be met for all of these things to occur. The theory of evolution would have us believe that, given enough time, such a life cycle can develop.

Why do these flatworms exist in the first place in a creation scenario? To help birds find food, so they can survive. According to what I've read, the adult parasites have no impact on the birds they inhabit.
Why do snails exist? To clean up waste. Rotting vegetation and animal waste. Then they present themselves as food for birds, thanks to the parasites.

This is the multi-faceted approach of creation, to clean up waste while at the same time providing food for birds. The birds eat the snails, which completes the cleanup cycle, while at the same time feeding the birds. The flatworms simply complete the circle. I'm no expert, I'm just expressing an opinion based on what I've read so far.

I don't think we can discount Romans 1:20, which says that the evidence of God is in His creation. This would be a perfect example of an "ecosystem" that didn't evolve, but was created with obvious purpose.

pitabread · Jul 10, 2021

Freth said:
To me, it seems like insurmountable odds have to be met for all of these things to occur. The theory of evolution would have us believe that, given enough time, such a life cycle can develop.

The main thing to understand with evolution when it comes to things like symbiosis or parasitism is that organisms evolve in parallel, not necessarily in sequence.

But that's a separate discussion, since this thread isn't about evolution at all. It's about the creationist explanation for the existence of this organism.

This is the multi-faceted approach of creation, to clean up waste while at the same time providing food for birds. The birds eat the snails, which completes the cleanup cycle, while at the same time feeding the birds. The flatworms simply complete the circle. I'm no expert, I'm just expressing an opinion based on what I've read so far.

This isn't an accurate description of what is going on though.

The parasite feeds on waste matter inside the bird and lays it eggs in the birds cloaca. The bird excretes fecal matter containing those eggs which are then consumed by the snails. The eggs hatch inside the snail giving rise to an intermediate form of the parasite which then uses a form of mind control and mimicry to get its broodsacs eaten by the birds. The birds aren't necessarily eating the snails themselves. Rather they are ripping the broodsacs out of the snail and consuming it, which potentially leaves the snail alive but maimed.

The parasites do not appear to be contributing to a waste clean up process nor contributing to the necessary death of the snails (since the snails can potentially recover and continue to live).

pitabread · Jul 10, 2021

coffee4u said:
So basically you want to know exactly how life cycles worked on a world no one has seen or tested?

Yes. If people are going to claim that such a world existed, then we should be able to try to understand how such a world worked.

There are plenty of creatures that actively help other creatures while feeding off them like cleaner fish. Perhaps the creature cleaned the shell of the snail or ate the mucous it produced but it is likely it was in some way beneficial to the snail.

This isn't a cleaner fish though. The intermediary form can't survive for very long outside of the snail's body. In that stage it actually absorbs nutrients from within the snail, not foraging on external matter.

This is a picture of what we're dealing with. This is what lives inside the snail:

229px-Leucochloridium_paradoxum_sporocyst_from_Heckert_1889_plate1_fig1.png

Again, these are really questions without answers only speculations, since none of this is in place anymore.

That's the issue though. There doesn't seem to be any explanations for how such an organism existed prior the fall of man, and how the fall of man specifically changed the biology of such an organism.

AV1611VET · Jul 10, 2021

pitabread said:
That's the issue though. There doesn't seem to be any explanations for how such an organism existed prior the fall of man, and how the fall of man specifically changed the biology of such an organism.

As I said before, perhaps God created this thing as a pestilence?

Exodus 16:20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it [manna] until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.

pitabread · Jul 10, 2021

AV1611VET said:
As I said before, perhaps God created this thing as a pestilence?

Against what though? Why would god create a parasite that seems to exist specifically to maim snails?

AV1611VET · Jul 10, 2021

pitabread said:
Against what though? Why would god create a parasite that seems to exist specifically to maim snails?

I don't know.

Why did roses suddenly start breeding thorns?

Keep in mind that God cursed all of creation, not just mankind.

pitabread · Jul 10, 2021

AV1611VET said:
Keep in mind that God cursed all of creation, not just mankind.

Why?

What does god have against those poor snails?

AV1611VET · Jul 10, 2021

AV1611VET said:
I don't know.

Why did roses suddenly start breeding thorns?

Keep in mind that God cursed all of creation, not just mankind.

pitabread said:
Why?

What does god have against those poor snails?

What does God have against those poor roses?

pitabread · Jul 10, 2021

AV1611VET said:
What does God have against those poor roses?

Answering a question with a question is not an answer.

AV1611VET · Jul 10, 2021

pitabread said:
Answering a question with a question is not an answer.

I already said I don't know.

If you're truly needing to know, why don't you get saved and ask Him yourself later?

Or, as I suspect, are you using the question mark as a form of ridicule against Him?

pitabread · Jul 10, 2021

AV1611VET said:
I already said I don't know.

Fair. Although you are continuing to engage in the thread, so I will continue to press accordingly.

If you're truly needing to know, why don't you get saved and ask Him yourself later?

Or, as I suspect, are you using the question mark as a form of ridicule against Him?

Neither of these are applicable. This is simply about the fact that creationism (as a belief system) lacks the utility to explain anything in creation.

Ironic, isn't it?

Ophiolite · Jul 10, 2021

AV1611VET said:
Keep in mind that God cursed all of creation, not just mankind.

It's difficult to see that as anything other than immature spite. Is there a better explanation that does not involve "God works in mysterious ways"?

eleos1954 · Jul 10, 2021

Bungle_Bear said:
Sorry, but you don't get to change argument at this stage. I said God brought death to the world, you said sin brought death. Your words in the post I am responding to confirm what I said - God put death into the world as a consequence of a choice. Death was already there, ready to be imposed.

It's not my fault you contradict yourself, so perhaps you need to look to your own claims rather than pointing fingers at others.

you don't get it ..... God didn't "put death" in the world .... man made the choice to sin and there are consequences to sin (transgression of God's law)

God has laws ... because without law there is lawlessness. When the law is kept perfectly (only Christ did this) they produce perfect love.

Death did not exist before sin .... God did not create death .... it was a choice. He created all His intelligent beings with choice.

It is about Love .... one can not MAKE someone love another .... choice has to be involved.

If God hadn't given choice .... True love would not exist .... we would be nothing more than a bunch of "puppets" .

and even so .... we are given eternal life through Jesus.

God is about life .... eternal life.

pitabread · Jul 10, 2021

eleos1954 said:
Death did not exist before sin .... God did not create death .... it was a choice.

Where did "death" come from then?

If God didn't create it (insofar as cellular death in biology) then how does it otherwise exist?

Ophiolite · Jul 10, 2021

eleos1954 said:
you don't get it ..... God didn't "put death" in the world .... man made the choice to sin and there are consequences to sin (transgression of God's law)

God has laws ... because without law there is lawlessness. When the law is kept perfectly (only Christ did this) they produce perfect love.

Death did not exist before sin .... God did not create death .... it was a choice. He created all His intelligent beings with choice.

It is about Love .... one can not MAKE someone love another .... choice has to be involved.

If God hadn't given choice .... True love would not exist .... we would be nothing more than a bunch of "puppets" .

and even so .... we are given eternal life through Jesus.

God is about life .... eternal life.

So if God did not create death, where did it come from? How did it sneak into his creation?

Edit: cross- posted with @pitabread

Subduction Zone · Jul 10, 2021

eleos1954 said:
you don't get it ..... God didn't "put death" in the world .... man made the choice to sin and there are consequences to sin (transgression of God's law)

God has laws ... because without law there is lawlessness. When the law is kept perfectly (only Christ did this) they produce perfect love.

Death did not exist before sin .... God did not create death .... it was a choice. He created all His intelligent beings with choice.

It is about Love .... one can not MAKE someone love another .... choice has to be involved.

If God hadn't given choice .... True love would not exist .... we would be nothing more than a bunch of "puppets" .

and even so .... we are given eternal life through Jesus.

God is about life .... eternal life.

If God is omniscient and omnipotent then he is ultimately the one that "put death into the world". In the creation myth Adam and Eve do not have the knowledge of "Good and evil" at least not until after they eat the fruit. Where God had to know how and why his creation would fail. If I set up a row of dominoes and knock the first one over I do not get to blame the second to the last domino for knocking over the last one.

AV1611VET · Jul 10, 2021

pitabread said:
Neither of these are applicable.

And I'm Genghis Khan.

pitabread said:
This is simply about the fact that creationism (as a belief system) lacks the utility to explain anything in creation.

Creationism is not obligated to explain anything beyond Genesis 1.

Else the conversation will descend into side issues that will end up edifying nobody.

AV1611VET · Jul 10, 2021

Ophiolite said:
It's difficult to see that as anything other than immature spite.

I have a feeling there's a LOT of things that's difficult for academians to see.

Ophiolite said:
Is there a better explanation that does not involve "God works in mysterious ways"?

I'd say that's about as good as it gets.

Deuteronomy 29:29a The secret things belong unto the LORD our God:

Subduction Zone · Jul 10, 2021

AV1611VET said:
And I'm Genghis Khan.

We know that you think that you are Genghis Kahn. How does that help you?

Creationism is not obligated to explain anything beyond Genesis 1. Else the conversation will descend into side issues that will end up edifying nobody.

It does not even explain that. Claims are not explanations.

pitabread · Jul 10, 2021

AV1611VET said:
Creationism is not obligated to explain anything beyond Genesis 1.

Yet creationists continue to take exception to scientific explanations without being able to provide any of their own.

Do you not see the contradiction?

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