When did the last days begin? Is there more than one period of last days?

DavidPT · Jul 8, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
If He came today I would not have known that beforehand, but it doesn't mean it would surprise me since I believe He could come at any time. I am expecting that. How could His return be unexpected to me when I am expecting Him to come at any time even though I don't know when exactly that will be?

IMO, for anyone to take a position like that indicates that that person thinks every single prophecy needing fulfilled before the 2nd coming can occur, have all been fulfilled. You being Amil, that would have to mean you believe the thousand years have already come and gone, and we are presently in satan's little season, both of which that would have to be fulfilled before He can return, unless you want to argue that He doesn't have to come during satan's little season, He can just as well come during the thousand years since you are expecting Him to come at anytime, which means that could even include today or even tomorrow.

Most of the rest of us, maybe other than Pretribbers, think He can't return until all prophecies needing fulfilled are fulfilled first. Most of Ezekiel 38 and 39 still need fulfilled before the 2nd coming can occur. I don't see the land of Israel being surrounded yet.

Ezekiel 38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

If Jesus can return at anytime, today or even tomorrow, should we then chalk these up as false prophecies, since none of this can ever come to pass first if He can return at anytime, which could mean today, tomorrow, so on and so on?

Other than this, I basically agree with pretty much everything else you said in that post. I disagree that He can return at anytime if that could include today, tomorrow, for example.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 9, 2021

keras said:
Yes; and the Bible does tell us when Jesus will Return. Exactly 1260 days after Satan sits in the Temple.
It is the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, that we cannot know when it will strike.

No, it is the day of His return that we don't know the day or hour. That is quite clear from what we can see right here:

Matthew 25:1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ 7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ 9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’ 12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.".

This parable is clearly about the return of Christ, and Jesus very clearly said "keep watch, because you do NOT know the day or the hour". But, here you are trying to say that we can know the day or hour which blatantly contradicts what Jesus taught.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 9, 2021

DavidPT said:
IMO, for anyone to take a position like that indicates that that person thinks every single prophecy needing fulfilled before the 2nd coming can occur, have all been fulfilled.

The only thing that I'm not sure has been fulfilled or not is the falling away from the faith that Paul wrote about in 2 Thessalonians 2. I personally equate that time period with Satan's little season. When you look at the amount of immorality going in more recent years (just look at the mass acceptance and promotion of homosexuality as an example), it's not hard to imagine that we're already in that time.

You being Amil, that would have to mean you believe the thousand years have already come and gone, and we are presently in satan's little season, both of which that would have to be fulfilled before He can return, unless you want to argue that He doesn't have to come during satan's little season, He can just as well come during the thousand years since you are expecting Him to come at anytime, which means that could even include today or even tomorrow.

You know it wouldn't make sense for me to claim that He could come during the thousand years since I, as an Amil, believe that the day He comes is the same day He destroys His enemies, which occurs after the thousand years (Rev 20:9). Of course, I believe He comes when Satan's little season is over and not during the thousand years. His coming is what will end Satan's little season. You already know that Amils believe this, so I'm probably wasting my time explaining this.

Most of the rest of us, maybe other than Pretribbers, think He can't return until all prophecies needing fulfilled are fulfilled first.

I believe that, too. I just don't agree with you on which prophecies are yet unfulfilled, obviously.

Most of Ezekiel 38 and 39 still need fulfilled before the 2nd coming can occur. I don't see the land of Israel being surrounded yet.

We've talked about those chapters extensively in the past. I don't believe it's wise to make such difficult passages the foundation for your doctrine. One's doctrine should be founded on more clear passages than those.

And, it's interesting that, despite your belief that the prophecies regarding Gog and Magog are yet future, you don't see them as being fulfilled in Revelation 20:7-9 which specifically mentions Gog and Magog. That's quite strange to me. If I believed that those prophecies were unfulfilled then I would see Revelation 20:7-9 as describing the fulfillment since it actually specifically mentions Gog and Magog there.

If Jesus can return at anytime, today or even tomorrow, should we then chalk these up as false prophecies, since none of this can ever come to pass first if He can return at anytime, which could mean today, tomorrow, so on and so on?

Why would you ask a ridiculous question like this? Do you actually think I would answer by saying "Yes, we can just chalk those up as false prophecies and ignore them". Come on. Don't ask me things like this. I know those prophecies are not false, but they are difficult to reconcile with other scripture in terms of how they fit with the timing of other events. Can you acknowledge that? Are you comfortable with the fact that your doctrine is based only on highly debatable passages like Ezekiel 38 and 39?

Other than this, I basically agree with pretty much everything else you said in that post. I disagree that He can return at anytime if that could include today, tomorrow, for example.

Well, it's too bad that you think so. That means His return could catch you by surprise despite the fact that He said it shouldn't catch believers by surprise. I guess you aren't watching for His return like He (and Paul) said we should do since you don't think it could happen today. So be it. I'm watching for it myself and expecting it at any time. It's exciting. I'm saddened that you don't share in that excitement and anticipation of His return.

DavidPT · Jul 9, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
You know it wouldn't make sense for me to claim that He could come during the thousand years since I, as an Amil, believe that the day He comes is the same day He destroys His enemies, which occurs after the thousand years (Rev 20:9). Of course, I believe He comes when Satan's little season is over and not during the thousand years. His coming is what will end Satan's little season. You already know that Amils believe this, so I'm probably wasting my time explaining this.

You're making my point for me then. You do not actually think Jesus can come at just anytime, so why did you initially say?---If He came today I would not have known that beforehand, but it doesn't mean it would surprise me since I believe He could come at any time. I am expecting that.

How can at any time not mean at any time, which could also mean during when you are thinking we are still in the thousand years, as an example? Why wouldn't at any time cover that time as well since you said you believe He could come at any time, you are expecting that?

Had you instead initially pointed out, thus made it perfectly clear, that you're not meaning just any time. but are meaning any time after certain events are fulfilled first, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, I would have hit the agree or winner button instead since I do tend to agree with your post over all, except for maybe this, which simply might be a misunderstanding on my part then.

DavidPT · Jul 9, 2021

To get somewhat back on topic, I submit the following for consideration.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

How can anyone possibly think this applies to an era of time ages ago, since it would have to mean that the great supper of God that Revelation 19 is referring to, which is also meaning Ezekiel 39:17-20, that it doesn't involve the 2nd coming after all, but is meaning events that already took place ages ago? After all, Ezekiel 39:22 is clearly meaning after or as of Ezekiel 39:17-20, and that Ezekiel 39:17-20 is also meaning Ezekiel 38:22.

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

One is to believe, though there is not one account of it recorded in any ancient history writings, that ages ago, meaning before the first coming in this case, God rained upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone? Why is ancient history writings dead silent about these events if something this profound already took place in the past? Why not instead use Scripture to interpret Scripture?

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

BTW, and I have mentioned this in the past in other threads, Revelation 16:17 appears to be meaning the same thing the following is meaning---Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

In Ezekiel 39:8 the speaker is clearly God, and that God is saying it is done. In Revelation 16:17 the great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, is obviously referring to God as well, and that God is saying it is done.

For some reason though, some prefer not to use Scripture to interpret Scripture at times, but would rather speculate instead, since it is mere speculation to place the events recorded in Ezekiel 38 and 39 during an era of time that not even one single ancient writing ever makes mention of, that these events already happened at a particular time in the past.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 9, 2021

DavidPT said:
You're making my point for me then. You do not actually think Jesus can come at just anytime

Yes, I do, or I wouldn't have said that.

so why did you initially say?---If He came today I would not have known that beforehand, but it doesn't mean it would surprise me since I believe He could come at any time. I am expecting that.

Exactly. I don't say what I don't mean. Why are you trying to tell me that I didn't mean what I said? That's not for you to judge.

How can at any time not mean at any time, which could also mean during when you are thinking we are still in the thousand years, as an example?

I don't believe we are still in the thousand years. I believe we are in Satan's little season now. I said that before. But, that is something that is hard to prove. As I said before, I relate the time of the falling away that Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2 to Satan's little season. I believe many have been falling away from the faith in recent years and have decided to no longer revere God's word and are doing whatever they want instead. I believe things like the increase in acceptance and promotion of homosexuality is evidence for that.

Many people don't like that God's Word teaches that homosexuality is a sin so some of them decide that they no longer believe any of it since they don't agree with that part of it. I have witnessed that firsthand with members of my wife's extended family.

Had you instead initially pointed out, thus made it perfectly clear, that you're not meaning just any time. but are meaning any time after certain events are fulfilled first, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, I would have hit the agree or winner button instead since I do tend to agree with your post over all, except for maybe this, which simply might be a misunderstanding on my part then.

When did I ever say that He could come before the falling away Paul mentioned occurs first or before Satan's little season was over? I didn't. I maybe didn't make it clear that I believe we're in Satan's little season now, but I do believe that. As I said earlier, it's just hard to prove that.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 9, 2021

DavidPT said:
To get somewhat back on topic, I submit the following for consideration.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

How can anyone possibly think this applies to an era of time ages ago, since it would have to mean that the great supper of God that Revelation 19 is referring to, which is also meaning Ezekiel 39:17-20, that it doesn't involve the 2nd coming after all, but is meaning events that already took place ages ago? After all, Ezekiel 39:22 is clearly meaning after or as of Ezekiel 39:17-20, and that Ezekiel 39:17-20 is also meaning Ezekiel 38:22.

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

One is to believe, though there is not one account of it recorded in any ancient history writings, that ages ago, meaning before the first coming in this case, God rained upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone? Why is ancient history writings dead silent about these events if something this profound already took place in the past? Why not instead use Scripture to interpret Scripture?

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

BTW, and I have mentioned this in the past in other threads, Revelation 16:17 appears to be meaning the same thing the following is meaning---Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

In Ezekiel 39:8 the speaker is clearly God, and that God is saying it is done. In Revelation 16:17 the great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, is obviously referring to God as well, and that God is saying it is done.

What exactly will be done at that time according to your understanding? Since you still see the thousand years as following that, I'm not sure what it would mean to say "It is done" from your premil perspective.

For some reason though, some prefer not to use Scripture to interpret Scripture at times, but would rather speculate instead, since it is mere speculation to place the events recorded in Ezekiel 38 and 39 during an era of time that not even one single ancient writing ever makes mention of, that these events already happened at a particular time in the past.

Considering that you are a futurist and see Ezekiel 38 and 39 as not yet being fulfilled, are you using scripture to interpret scripture by basically ignoring Revelation 20:7-9 when determining what the references to Gog and Magog are about and when will they be fulfilled? If a prophecy about Gog and Magog is not yet fulfilled, why would a futurist not use the following passage to aid in determining the timing of its fulfillment?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

DavidPT · Jul 9, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Yes, I do, or I wouldn't have said that.

Exactly. I don't say what I don't mean. Why are you trying to tell me that I didn't mean what I said? That's not for you to judge.

I don't believe we are still in the thousand years. I believe we are in Satan's little season now. I said that before. But, that is something that is hard to prove. As I said before, I relate the time of the falling away that Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2 to Satan's little season. I believe many have been falling away from the faith in recent years and have decided to no longer revere God's word and are doing whatever they want instead. I believe things like the increase in acceptance and promotion of homosexuality is evidence for that.

Many people don't like that God's Word teaches that homosexuality is a sin so some of them decide that they no longer believe any of it since they don't agree with that part of it. I have witnessed that firsthand with members of my wife's extended family.

When did I ever say that He could come before the falling away Paul mentioned occurs first or before Satan's little season was over? I didn't. I maybe didn't make it clear that I believe we're in Satan's little season now, but I do believe that. As I said earlier, it's just hard to prove that.

Let's try and get on the same page then. Just because you no longer believe we might still be in the thousand years, what about when you believed we were still in that era? Or, since becoming Amil have you instead thought we have been in the little season the entire time, and that the thousand years preceded you becoming Amil? The point I'm trying to make, and surely you can follow what I'm getting at, if there ever was a time since you became Amil that you concluded we were still in the thousand years, and that you also concluded that Jesus could come at any time, even that very day, meaning when you were concluding that we are still in the thousand years, how does that not add up to, that in your view, Jesus could even come during the thousand years? Seriously.

Yet, you seem to be suggesting I'm twisting what you said and meant, when it's only logical that if there ever was a time when you thought we were still in the thousand years, and that you also thought Jesus could come at anytime, that means He could also come during the thousand years, then, otherwise you are contradicting yourself by insisting He could come at anytime, but that He can't come during the thousand years, yet He could still come this very day, meaning when you were thinking we were still in the thousand years, assuming there was a time you thought we were still in that era. The point is not, that He did not come during the thousand years, thus a moot point on my part, this assuming the thousand years are meaning in this age, the point is that by you believing that He could come at anytime, even when you were thinking we are still in the thousand years, this indicates that He could have come during the thousand years also, otherwise it doesn't make sense to insist He can come at anytime, even that very day, meaning when you still thought we were in the thousand years. It has to be like I said then. You don't actually believe that Jesus can return at just anytime, because surely you didn't think He could return during the thousand years.

Though I doubt that I and others are wrong about Ezekiel 38:14-21 being a future event still needing fulfilled, but let's assume we are wrong. What about 2 Thessalonians 2 then, for example? Doesn't that chapter teach that Jesus can't return until numerous events have come to pass first? Did Paul think Jesus could return at anytime, which might include the same day he wrote those things involving that chapter? Would he not be contradicting what he wrote by thinking that Jesus could return even that same day he wrote these things, even though what he wrote indicated that Jesus can't even return until there come a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed? Obviously then, Paul never believed Jesus could return at anytime imaginable, which might even include that very same day, but he did believe that Jesus could return at anytime after certain conditions are met first, meaning all prophecies needing to be fulfilled before He returns, are fulfilled.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 9, 2021

DavidPT said:
Let's try and get on the same page then. Just because you no longer believe we might still be in the thousand years, what about when you believed we were still in that era?

Why do you want to talk about what I believed in the past? That's a complete waste of time.

Or, since becoming Amil have you instead thought we have been in the little season the entire time, and that the thousand years preceded you becoming Amil?

I have thought that we might be in the little season the entire time, but wasn't sure. I feel more certain now that we probably are in that time because of what I've seen going on in the world from an immorality standpoint. Since I believe the little season is the time Paul talked about in 2 Thess 2 that means I believe the little season is marked by a falling away from the faith and an increase in wickedness due to it not being restrained any longer.

The point I'm trying to make, and surely you can follow what I'm getting at, if there ever was a time since you became Amil that you concluded we were still in the thousand years, and that you also concluded that Jesus could come at any time, even that very day, meaning when you were concluding that we are still in the thousand years, how does that not add up to, that in your view, Jesus could even come during the thousand years? Seriously.

Do you think I'm stupid? Do you think it's not obvious that it would make no sense to think that He could come at any time if we were in the midst of the thousand years right now? No one would think that since that would mean He would come even before Satan's little season occurred, which is not what I or any other Amils believe. Why are you talking to me as if I'm an idiot who can't discern something as obvious as that?

Yet, you seem to be suggesting I'm twisting what you said and meant

I'm doing no such thing. Show me where I said that He could come at any time if we were still in the thousand years. I don't recall ever saying that. If I did it would've been by mistake.

when it's only logical that if there ever was a time when you thought we were still in the thousand years, and that you also thought Jesus could come at anytime, that means He could also come during the thousand years, then, otherwise you are contradicting yourself by insisting He could come at anytime, but that He can't come during the thousand years, yet He could still come this very day, meaning when you were thinking we were still in the thousand years, assuming there was a time you thought we were still in that era. The point is not, that He did not come during the thousand years, thus a moot point on my part, this assuming the thousand years are meaning in this age, the point is that by you believing that He could come at anytime, even when you were thinking we are still in the thousand years, this indicates that He could have come during the thousand years also, otherwise it doesn't make sense to insist He can come at anytime, even that very day, meaning when you still thought we were in the thousand years. It has to be like I said then. You don't actually believe that Jesus can return at just anytime, because surely you didn't think He could return during the thousand years.

Do you know that you can't get the time back that you wasted saying all of that? Stop talking to me as if I'm a moron who doesn't already know all of that.

Though I doubt that I and others are wrong about Ezekiel 38:14-21 being a future event still needing fulfilled, but let's assume we are wrong. What about 2 Thessalonians 2 then, for example? Doesn't that chapter teach that Jesus can't return until numerous events have come to pass first?

Yes, I've said so myself! Are you sure you're reading what I'm saying? I just happen to think that the falling away has already begun and that wickedness has been increasing for awhile already. But, I've never claimed that He could return before the falling away and the increase in wickedness occurred. Why are you acting as if I am claiming that or that I ever claimed that when I never have? Why would I claim that when it would clearly contradict my belief in Amil?

Did Paul think Jesus could return at anytime, which might include the same day he wrote those things involving that chapter?

Obviously not. This whole post is offensive. You're asking me questions as if I was a complete idiot who has no ability to understand even obvious things like what you're saying in your post.

Would he not be contradicting what he wrote by thinking that Jesus could return even that same day he wrote these things, even though what he wrote indicated that Jesus can't even return until there come a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed?

Obviously. Why are you asking me this? Again, do you think I'm stupid?

Obviously then, Paul never believed Jesus could return at anytime imaginable, which might even include that very same day, but he did believe that Jesus could return at anytime after certain conditions are met first, meaning all prophecies needing to be fulfilled before He returns, are fulfilled.

Obviously. I never said otherwise. Congratulations on completely wasting your time with this post.

Matt5 · Jul 9, 2021

What You Don't Want To Hear About The Return Of Jesus

DavidPT said:
Most of us tend to conclude they began in the first century with the first coming. Yet, there are also prophecies in the OT that speak of last days, such as the following.

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last('achariyth) days(yowm), that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Ezekiel 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter('achariyth) days(yowm), and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Daniel 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter('achariyth) days(yowm): for yet the vision is for many days.

There are some that argue, and maybe even rightfully so, that the last day of the last days that began in the first century with Christ's first coming, there are no more days after the last day.

While at the same time, some of these same ones argue that there is more than one period of last days, last days before the first coming, and last days after the first coming, and that the last day of the last days before the first coming, there are still more days after that last day. IOW, totally contradicting what they are arguing, that last means last and that nothing follows last, otherwise it is not last.

The main focus of this thread is Ezekiel 38-39 and the timing of those events. The above verse indicates it is in the latter days when this is fulfilled. Common sense says that anything involving latter days has to have an end eventually, IOW, has to have a last day, which presents a problem if the last days don't even begin until the first coming, and that some are insisting the last days in Ezekiel 38:16 are meaning maybe thousands of years before the first coming.

There are some that also do the same with Daniel 10:14. They insist that was already fulfilled before the first century, thus making more than one period of last days, one prior to the first coming, one after the first coming. Are they going to argue that the last days actually began maybe thousands of years before the first coming, thus continue unto the first coming, and then argue that the last days don't even begin until the first coming?

No matter how you look at it, they are contradicting themselves no matter what by insisting that the last days involving Ezekiel 38:16 are not involving any of the last days the NT are involving, and that neither is Daniel 10:14 according to some of these interpreters. Yet, the majority of these same interpreters argue that the last days meant in Isaiah 2:2 though, these do involve the same last days the NT involves. So, why aren't they interpreting the last days recorded in Ezekiel 38:16 and Daniel 10:14 in the same manner?

From The Rules of Bible Prophecy - code 90210: Thou shall not interpret prophecy in such a way as to be helpful.

Why don't the last days represent the time period shortly before the 2nd return of Jesus?

keras · Jul 9, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
No, it is the day of His return that we don't know the day or hour. That is quite clear from what we can see right here:

The Parable of the ten virgins doesn't set the timing of the Return.
Those with a Bible during the end times will know that when the Temple id desecrated, 2 Thess 2:4, then exactly 1260 days later Jesus will Return.

Many prophesies make it clear that the sudden and shocking Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal world wide disaster, is the event that we cannot know the Day. But we are told to wait for that Day, to look forward to its coming and to hasten it on. 2 Peter 3:12

Timtofly · Jul 10, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Yes, I do, or I wouldn't have said that.

Exactly. I don't say what I don't mean. Why are you trying to tell me that I didn't mean what I said? That's not for you to judge.

I don't believe we are still in the thousand years. I believe we are in Satan's little season now. I said that before. But, that is something that is hard to prove. As I said before, I relate the time of the falling away that Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2 to Satan's little season. I believe many have been falling away from the faith in recent years and have decided to no longer revere God's word and are doing whatever they want instead. I believe things like the increase in acceptance and promotion of homosexuality is evidence for that.

Many people don't like that God's Word teaches that homosexuality is a sin so some of them decide that they no longer believe any of it since they don't agree with that part of it. I have witnessed that firsthand with members of my wife's extended family.

When did I ever say that He could come before the falling away Paul mentioned occurs first or before Satan's little season was over? I didn't. I maybe didn't make it clear that I believe we're in Satan's little season now, but I do believe that. As I said earlier, it's just hard to prove that.

If the Millennium is over and we are in the little season, would that not make you a post mill instead of amil? How can there be a little season if there never was a Millennium?

DavidPT · Jul 10, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Why do you want to talk about what I believed in the past? That's a complete waste of time.

I have thought that we might be in the little season the entire time, but wasn't sure. I feel more certain now that we probably are in that time because of what I've seen going on in the world from an immorality standpoint. Since I believe the little season is the time Paul talked about in 2 Thess 2 that means I believe the little season is marked by a falling away from the faith and an increase in wickedness due to it not being restrained any longer.

Do you think I'm stupid? Do you think it's not obvious that it would make no sense to think that He could come at any time if we were in the midst of the thousand years right now? No one would think that since that would mean He would come even before Satan's little season occurred, which is not what I or any other Amils believe. Why are you talking to me as if I'm an idiot who can't discern something as obvious as that?

I'm doing no such thing. Show me where I said that He could come at any time if we were still in the thousand years. I don't recall ever saying that. If I did it would've been by mistake.

Do you know that you can't get the time back that you wasted saying all of that? Stop talking to me as if I'm a moron who doesn't already know all of that.

Yes, I've said so myself! Are you sure you're reading what I'm saying? I just happen to think that the falling away has already begun and that wickedness has been increasing for awhile already. But, I've never claimed that He could return before the falling away and the increase in wickedness occurred. Why are you acting as if I am claiming that or that I ever claimed that when I never have? Why would I claim that when it would clearly contradict my belief in Amil?

Obviously not. This whole post is offensive. You're asking me questions as if I was a complete idiot who has no ability to understand even obvious things like what you're saying in your post.

Obviously. Why are you asking me this? Again, do you think I'm stupid?

Obviously. I never said otherwise. Congratulations on completely wasting your time with this post.

I decided to not let pride get in my way, so I deleted what I initially said in this post and decided to repent of what I had decided might be best between you and I. Maybe you already read it before I decided to delete it, or maybe not.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 10, 2021

DavidPT said:
I decided to not let pride get in my way, so I deleted what I initially said in this post and decided to repent of what I had decided might be best between you and I. Maybe you already read it before I decided to delete it, or maybe not.

No, I didn't. Did you not like what I had to say? If so, I'm sorry for that, but you talked to me like I was stupid and I don't appreciate that. Do you understand that you were talking to me that way? You were saying obvious things that anyone would know, but questioning whether I knew them or not.

Think about how you would feel if I talked to you that way. For example, imagine me asking you how it could be that Jesus would return before the tribulation was over as if I thought you might believe that. That would be ridiculous for me to ask you that question when I know that you believe in the post-trib return of Christ, right?

Me asking you something like that is similar to you asking me, an Amil, how Jesus could return during the thousand years when you already know I don't believe that can happen since I obviously believe He will return after Satan's little season, not before.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 10, 2021

Timtofly said:
If the Millennium is over and we are in the little season, would that not make you a post mill instead of amil? How can there be a little season if there never was a Millennium?

Do you ever do any research on any other doctrines besides your own? It would be helpful for you so that you can avoid misunderstanding and misrepresenting what other people believe, as you often do.

Amil does not teach that there is no "Millennium" at all in any sense, as you seem to believe we do. While amils believe that the thousand years are not a literal thousand years, we do believe that it figuratively represents an actual time period with a beginning and an end (basically, the New Testament time period except for Satan's little season which follows it).

We believe the thousand years began with the resurrection of Christ because His death and resurrection is what defeated Satan and brought the hope of eternal life to the world which they did not previously have. And that is because Satan previously "had the power of death" (Heb 2:14) and made people "subject to bondage" through the "fear of death" (Heb 2:15). But, Christ's death and resurrection changed all that. Because of the death and resurrection of Christ, Satan was bound/restrained from keeping the world in spiritual darkness and in bondage to the fear of death any longer. Christ's death and resurrection brought the hope of eternal life to the world which it did not previously have.

When Satan is no longer bound/restrained then that is when the thousand years ends and Satan's little season begins. Amils are no different than premils in that sense. We just don't agree on the actual length of the thousand years or in our understanding of what it means for Satan to be bound.

imsaneru · Jul 10, 2021

Jesus said this generation will not pass away untill all that all i have told you happens. And so they believed him. Nothing wrong with that , you and i would have believed him too had we been there.

And so we need to be careful of what is past and what is future.

Timtofly · Jul 10, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Do you ever do any research on any other doctrines besides your own? It would be helpful for you so that you can avoid misunderstanding and misrepresenting what other people believe, as you often do.

Amil does not teach that there is no "Millennium" at all in any sense, as you seem to believe we do. While amils believe that the thousand years are not a literal thousand years, we do believe that it figuratively represents an actual time period with a beginning and an end (basically, the New Testament time period except for Satan's little season which follows it).

We believe the thousand years began with the resurrection of Christ because His death and resurrection is what defeated Satan and brought the hope of eternal life to the world which they did not previously have. And that is because Satan previously "had the power of death" (Heb 2:14) and made people "subject to bondage" through the "fear of death" (Heb 2:15). But, Christ's death and resurrection changed all that. Because of the death and resurrection of Christ, Satan was bound/restrained from keeping the world in spiritual darkness and in bondage to the fear of death any longer. Christ's death and resurrection brought the hope of eternal life to the world which it did not previously have.

When Satan is no longer bound/restrained then that is when the thousand years ends and Satan's little season begins. Amils are no different than premils in that sense. We just don't agree on the actual length of the thousand years or in our understanding of what it means for Satan to be bound.

If you were post mill, your answer would still question my ability to understand the difference. There has not been a Millennium either way. What is future is what is non-existent to either views.

You take the little season as a literal time, but not the 1000 years as literal time. I get it.

Calling something spiritual makes it literally non-existent. We are literally not in the little season. It literally comes at the end of a literal Millennium. We may be in a spiritual season as the church has allowed Satan more freedom spiritually to decieve.

parousia70 · Jul 14, 2021

The Last Days Began with Jesus' earthly ministry.
Hebrews 1:1-2

DavidPT · Jul 14, 2021

parousia70 said:
The Last Days Began with Jesus' earthly ministry.
Hebrews 1:1-2

Ezekiel 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

If those last days have a starting point, meaning what you brought up in Hebrews 1:2, and that they didn't even begin until after the first coming happened first, that means the latter(last) days in verse 16 above, they also involve these same last days that began after the first coming, or we have to conclude there is more than one period of last days. One prior to the first coming, one as of the first coming. The former of course is ludicrous since it would have to mean those last days also had a last day the same way the last days since the first coming obviously have a last day, otherwise it would have to mean those last days are never ending rather than they having an end eventually, or that they don't even end until the last day of the last days involving Hebrews 1:2 end. Who could or would argue that the last days involving Ezekiel 38:16 are never ending? No one would or could, yet some argue that those last days are not even involving any of the last days that began after the first coming are involving. Where is the logic in that, that those last days don't even have a last day eventually?

it shall be in the latter(last) days(Ezekiel 38:16)---according to some interpretations, though none of these holding to these interpretations would actually argue they are never ending, they are still never ending, nonetheless, that would have to be the logic if these last days don't also have a last day.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

These last days, according to all interpretations, are not never ending, they have an end eventually, that being brought about by the last day of the last days.

Should we really be interpreting Scriptures in a such a way that it involves throwing logic out the window altogether if our interpretation is supposed to be correct? How can one not be throwing logic out the window altogether by insisting that the latter(days) involving Ezekiel 38:16 don't involve any of those last days Hebrews 1:2 are involving? And since the last day of the last days meant in Hebrews 1:2 never happened during Jesus' time on earth, that obviously means we are still in these same last days and will continue to be in them until the last day of these last days. The same has to be true of the latter(last) days meant in Ezekiel 38:16, that once that starts coming to pass, we are still in those same last days until the last day of those last days.

parousia70 · Jul 15, 2021

DavidPT said:
And since the last day of the last days meant in Hebrews 1:2 never happened during Jesus' time on earth, that obviously means we are still in these same last days

Circular Reasoning.
Because your Believe (X) hasn't happened, its therefore obvious - to you - (X) hasn't happened?

Again, Circular Reasoning.
Your belief itself is not "obvious" proof your belief is true.

When did the last days begin? Is there more than one period of last days?

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