WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

klutedavid · Jul 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Well for example you say you studied your way into it and studied your way out of it. That to me sounds confusing. How are the following scriptures not applicable in regards to those who depart the faith? (e.g. 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 6:4-8; James 1:8 etc). I mean how do you know you did not study your way out of the truth of Gods' Word?

Each person must examine the evidence themselves and then make that decision on the basis of that evidence.

He was obviously attracted by the SDA teaching but saw through it.

That is not confusing. People change churches all the time.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 9, 2021

klutedavid said:
Each person must examine the evidence themselves and then make that decision on the basis of that evidence.

According to you here as posted earlier you posted that you examined the evidence of the bible and became an SDA then examined it again and became a non-SDA. This sounds like confusion to me. As posted earlier why are the following scriptures not applicable in regards to those who depart the faith? (e.g. 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 6:4-8; James 1:8 etc). I mean how do you know you did not study your way out of the truth of Gods' Word?

klutedavid · Jul 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
According to you here you examined the evidence of the bible became an SDA then examined it again and became a non-SDA. This sounds like confusion to me. As posted earlier how are the following scriptures not applicable in regards to those who depart the faith? (e.g. 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 6:4-8; James 1:8 etc). I mean how do you know you did not study your way out of the truth of Gods' Word?

As I have said on a number of occasions. The SDA follows a traditional interpretation of the scripture. That is why you place such emphasis on the ten commandments.

Other interpretations of the scripture especially non-traditional interpretations; don't see the ten commandments transferring into the new covenant.

So someone could come from a traditional church background and transfer into the SDA without too much trouble. You would need to ask this fellow what church he came from, to understand how he could join the SDA.

In the end, it is not the church that you attend that matters. It is ultimately what you believe and the life that you live that is far more important.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 9, 2021

klutedavid said:
As I have said on a number of occasions. The SDA follows a traditional interpretation of the scripture. That is why you place such emphasis on the ten commandments.

Other interpretations of the scripture especially non-traditional interpretations; don't see the ten commandments transferring into the new covenant.

So someone could come from a traditional church background and transfer into the SDA without too much trouble. You would need to ask this fellow what church he came from, to understand how he could join the SDA.

In the end, it is not the church that you attend that matters. It is ultimately what you believe and the life that you live that is far more important.

I am sorry David I do not see any truth in what you have posted here as they are simply your words and opinion in opposition to the scriptures that are Gods' Word. So we will have to agree to disagree here. We should be careful to believe and follow. According to the scriptures only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them in Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29. You did not answer my question that I asked you earlier in the post you are quoting from. You said earlier that you examined the evidence of the bible then became an SDA then examined it again and became a non-SDA. As posted earlier how are the following scriptures not applicable in regards to those who depart the faith? (e.g. 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 6:4-8; James 1:8 etc). I mean how do you know you did not study your way out of the truth of Gods' Word? Anyhow you do not have to answer these questions if you do not want to I will leave that between you and God. That was the reason why I said earlier that your post sounded confusing to me.

klutedavid · Jul 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I am sorry David I do not see any truth in what you have posted here as they are simply your words and opinion in opposition to the scriptures that are Gods' Word. So we will have to agree to disagree here. We should be careful to believe and follow. According to the scriptures only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them in Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29. You did not answer my question that I asked you earlier in the post you are quoting from. You said earlier that you examined the evidence of the bible then became an SDA then examined it again and became a non-SDA. As posted earlier how are the following scriptures not applicable in regards to those who depart the faith? (e.g. 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 6:4-8; James 1:8 etc). I mean how do you know you did not study your way out of the truth of Gods' Word? Anyhow you do not have to answer these questions if you do not want to I will leave that between you and God. That was the reason why I said earlier that your post sounded confusing to me.

For me it's simple.

Paul stated that we are not under the law. Even if I commit sin as a Christian, I am still not under the law. Committing a sin that is transgressing the law, does not mean that you are under the law.

A Christian only needs to ask for forgiveness for their sin according to James.

We are forgiven of all our sin, past, present, and future.

The atonement offered by the perfect sacrifice of the Christ is a perfect atonement.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 9, 2021

klutedavid said:
For me it's simple.

Paul stated that we are not under the law. Even if I commit sin as a Christian, I am still not under the law. Committing a sin that is transgressing the law, does not mean that you are under the law.

A Christian only needs to ask for forgiveness for their sin according to James.

We are forgiven of all our sin, past, present, and future.

The atonement offered by the perfect sacrifice of the Christ is a perfect atonement.

Still does not answer anything from the posts you are quoting from. According to Romans 3:19 no one is "under the law" if they have received Gods' forgiveness for breaking the law. We are only "under the law" here according to the scriptures if we stand before God guilty of breaking the law. So to have an interpretation of scripture that says we are now free to break the law because we are not under the law is not biblical (see Romans 6:1-23).

klutedavid · Jul 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Still does not answer anything from the posts you are quoting from. According to Romans 3:19 no one is "under the law" if they have received Gods' forgiveness for breaking the law. We are only "under the law" here according to the scriptures if we stand before God guilty of breaking the law. So to have an interpretation of scripture that says we are now free to break the law because we are not under the law is not biblical (see Romans 6:1-23).

Well that is not what the scripture declares.

The Gentiles never had the law.

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves.

We are only "under the law" here according to the scriptures if we stand before God guilty of breaking the law.

Not a word of truth here.

You cannot break a law that you were never given.

Your trying to say that Gentiles are under the law and were always under the law. That is just plainly wrong. Gentiles never had sacrifices, food laws, or honored a Sabbath day. Gentiles were never circumcised or even knew the God of the Old Testament.

There is not a whisker of truth in your posts.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 10, 2021

klutedavid said:
Well that is not what the scripture declares

I am sorry dear friend that it is exactly what the scriptures say. Here they all are verbatim including the supporting context so there is no confusion...

Romans 3:9-20
[9], What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before PROVED BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN;
[10, As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE:
[11], There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
[12], THEY ARE ALL GONE OUT OF THE WAY, THEY ARE TOGETHER BECOME UNPROFITABLE; THERE IS NONE THAT DOES GOOD, NO, NOT ONE.
[13], Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14], Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15], Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16], Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17], And the way of peace have they not known:
[18], There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHAT THINGS SOEVER THE LAW SAID, IT SAID TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW: THAT EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED, AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.
[20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

klutedavid said:
The Gentiles never had the law.

As shown above, "through the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20). Anyone (both Jews and gentiles) who sin regardless if they know the law or not are under the laws condemnation and guilt according to Romans 3:9 to Romans 3:19. For example Romans 3:9 says [9], "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jew and Gentiles that they are all under sin" and again in Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. The above scriptures show all the world stands under the law's condemnation because all have sinned.

klutedavid said:
Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves.Not a word of truth here.

Here let's add back the context you left out as v14 does not delete Romans 2:12-13. Once again the context of Romans 2 is Jew and Gentiles are all under sin as shown above already in Romans 3:9-20.
Romans 2:12-13 [12], FOR AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED WITHOUT LAW SHALL ALSO PERISH WITHOUT LAW: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;[13], FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST BEFORE GOD, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

klutedavid said:
You cannot break a law that you were never given. Your trying to say that Gentiles are under the law and were always under the law. That is just plainly wrong. Gentiles never had sacrifices, food laws, or honored a Sabbath day. Gentiles were never circumcised or even knew the God of the Old Testament.

No. I said no such thing. As posted earlier Gods' Word (not my words) says that anyone who sins which is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments or not believing and following Gods' Word is "under the law" standing guilty before God of breaking the law (see Romans 3:9-20 posted above verbatim). They are God's Word posted verbatim not my words that you argue against here with your words that are not Gods Word. So who should I believe you or God? I know who I believe and it is not you dear friend. No one ever said Gentile unbelievers ever had God's laws this is a strawman argument no one has ever made so I will leave you to argue that one with yourself. All that was posted to you was that all, both believers and unbelievers according to Romans 3:9-19 are "under the law" guilty before God of breaking the law according to Romans 3:19 which are Gods' Words not my words. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. That would be between you and God.

Hope this is helpful.

PS. I did also notice you did not answer my original question to you (see post # 67 linked).

Neogaia777 · Jul 10, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
WHY IS UNIVERSALISM NOT BIBLICAL?

Very simply the bible tells us so because there is no more second chances at the second coming for all the unrepentant wicked when Jesus returns. For example...

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE WICKED AT THE SECOND COMING?

WICKED SHALL BE DESTROYED
Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him, but all the wicked He shall destroy
Psalm 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land, that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord
Psalms 37:9-11 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait on the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yes, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Proverbs 14:11, The house of the wicked shall be destroyed: but the tabernacle of the upright shall flourish.
Psalm 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off
Psalm 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish, it is that they shall be destroyed forever
Psalms 94:23 He has brought back their wickedness upon them And will destroy them in their evil
The Lord our God will destroy them.
Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed; but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded
Proverbs 10:29 The way of the Lord is strength to the upright, but destruction shall be the workers of iniquity.
Hosea 7:13 Woe to them, for they have strayed from Me! Destruction is theirs, for they have rebelled against Me! I would redeem them, but they speak lies against Me
Philippians 1:28 in no way alarmed by your opponents—which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.
Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things
2 Peter 2:3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2 Peter 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed
2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
Jude 1:10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

THEY SHALL PERISH
Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away
Psalms 1:4 The wicked are not so,But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.
Palms 1:6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish.
Proverbs 19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish
Luke 13:3 Nay, but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever should believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received no the love of the truth that they might be saved

THE WICKED SHALL BE BURNT UP
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in His hand, and he will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them. But gather the wheat into my barn
Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Malachi 4:1,3 For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble and th day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts. It shall leave them neither root nor branch...And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works therein shall be burnt up

THE WICKED SHALL BE CONSUMED
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away
Psalms 104:35a Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth and let the wicked be no more

THE WICKED SHALL BE DEVOURED
Psalm 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on th ebreadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indigination, which shall devour the adversaries

THE WICKED SHALL BE CUT OFF FROM THE EARTH
Psalms 37:2,9,22,28,34,38 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb...For evildoers shall be cut off, but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth...For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off...For the Lord loveth judgment and forsaketh not his saints; the are preserved for ever. But the seed of the wicked shall be cut off...Wait on the Lord and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it...But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off
Isaiah 33:12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime. As thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire
Proverbs 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it

THE WICKED WILL GO INTO PERDITION AND UTTER RUIN
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and periditon of ungodly men

THE WICKED ARE COMPARED TO COMBUSTIBLE MATERIALS TO BE BURNED
Matthew 3:12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaffwith unquenchable fire.
Nahum 1:9-10 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.
Matthew 13:40. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
John 15:6. "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

THE WICKED SHALL DIE
Ezekiel 18:4-9, 20 [4], Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.
James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
John 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
Proverbs 15:10 Correction is grievous to him that forsakes the way: and he that hates reproof shall die.
Proverbs 19:16 He that keeps the commandment keeps his own soul; but he that despises his ways shall die.
Ezekiel 3:18-20 When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand. Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. Again, When a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at your hand.
Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All his righteousness that he has done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.
Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done shall he die.
Ezekiel 18:28 Because he considers, and turns away from all his transgressions that he has committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby you have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Ezeliel 33:8-9 When I say to the wicked, O wicked man, you shall surely die; if you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand. Nevertheless, if you warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
Ezekiel 33:11, 13, 14, 15, 18 Say to them, As I live, said the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

THE WICKED SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionists, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and whoever loves and makes a lie.
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, jealousies, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Contentions, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous that is, an idolater, has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death

.................

There is no second chances for the unrepentant wicked at the second coming as the scriptures teach us in Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Universalism is a man-made teaching that makes a mockery of the cross and Gods' justice and judgement for sin and is a false teaching designed to lead all those who follow it away from God and His Word.

What are your thoughts (friendly discussion please).

God bless

You forgot one, "And the torment of the wicked (lake of fire) is/always will be forever"

Revelation 14:11- "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night" (eternal suffering/torment)...

Revelation 20:10- "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (eternal suffering/torment)...

Revelation 20:14- "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." (that lasts forever, etc)...

Revelation 20:15- "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (second death, that lasts forever, etc)...

Revelation 21:8- "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." (lake of fire, that lasts forever, etc)...

Matthew 25:41- "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (lake of fire, second death, etc, that lasts forever, etc)...

Matthew 25:46- "And these will go away into eternal punishment (lake of fire, second death, that lats forever, etc), but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Thessalonians 1:9- "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction (lake of fire, second death, that lasts forever, etc), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."

Mark 9:48- "where their worm (torment/decay/suffering) does not die and the fire is not quenched." (or is ever put out or ever goes out at all ever, etc)...

Isaiah 66:24- (part of a future prophecy about a future place and time) "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For (where/when) their worm shall not die, their fire shall not (ever) be quenched (or put out, but will burn forever, etc), and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Matthew 18:8-9 "And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire." (lake of fire, gehenna, second death, that lasts forever, etc)...

Matthew 3:12- "His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." (a fire that cannot go out and will not ever be put out or go out or ever die, etc)...

Daniel 12:12- "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (or shame, pain, evil, regret, suffering and/or destruction, etc) ("everlasting", etc)...

Matthew 8:12- "While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness (forever). In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (forever).

Jude 1:13- "Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever. (utter/outer darkness that is forever, etc)...

It might only be "few" who are saved...?

Matthew 7:13-14- "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

About over-coming and not being harmed by the fire/judgment, etc...

Revelation 2:11- "The one who conquers will not be hurt (harmed, burned, tormented) by the second death (final resurrection/judgment)."

God Bless!

Saint Steven · Jul 10, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
Matthew 25:46- "And these will go away into eternal punishment (lake of fire, second death, that lats forever, etc), but the righteous into eternal life."

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

SabbathBlessings · Jul 10, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
You forgot one, "And the torment of the wicked (lake of fire) is/always will be forever"

Revelation 14:11- "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night" (eternal suffering/torment)...

Revelation 20:10- "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (eternal suffering/torment)...

Revelation 20:14- "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." (that lasts forever, etc)...

Revelation 20:15- "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (second death, that lasts forever, etc)...

Revelation 21:8- "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." (lake of fire, that lasts forever, etc)...

Matthew 25:41- "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (lake of fire, second death, etc, that lasts forever, etc)...

Matthew 25:46- "And these will go away into eternal punishment (lake of fire, second death, that lats forever, etc), but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Thessalonians 1:9- "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction (lake of fire, second death, that lasts forever, etc), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."

Mark 9:48- "where their worm (torment/decay/suffering) does not die and the fire is not quenched." (or is ever put out or ever goes out at all ever, etc)...

Isaiah 66:24- (part of a future prophecy about a future place and time) "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For (where/when) their worm shall not die, their fire shall not (ever) be quenched (or put out, but will burn forever, etc), and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Matthew 18:8-9 "And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire." (lake of fire, gehenna, second death, that lasts forever, etc)...

Matthew 3:12- "His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." (a fire that cannot go out and will not ever be put out or go out or ever die, etc)...

Daniel 12:12- "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (or shame, pain, evil, regret, suffering and/or destruction, etc) ("everlasting", etc)...

Matthew 8:12- "While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness (forever). In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (forever).

Jude 1:13- "Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever. (utter/outer darkness that is forever, etc)...

It might only be "few" who are saved...?

Matthew 7:13-14- "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

About over-coming and not being harmed by the fire/judgment, etc...

Revelation 2:11- "The one who conquers will not be hurt (harmed, burned, tormented) by the second death (final resurrection/judgment)."

God Bless!

We have a God of love. God takes no pleasure when we sin. God sent His son to die so we could be forgiven of our sins that's how much He loves each one of us. What kind of God would we have if He tortured people day and night and everlasting?

We are told this:

Revelations 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I agree, not everyone is going to be saved and according to the scriptures it is a minority over the majority. How much pain for God's saved saints to see their loved ones being tormented forever.

We are told, the sinners will be ashes meaning, their existence will cease to continue in the New Heaven and New Earth

"Behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. … And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts" (Malachi 4:1, 3).

The promises in the Bible are true. Jesus wants to save everyone and asks so little from us. We should all pray that God's will is our will.

God bless.

Saint Steven · Jul 10, 2021

Michael Collum said:
Annihilationism is a heresy too.

All three views are biblical and contradictory. Not fair to claim any of them are a heresy. IMHO

Or, if we want to blame anyone, blame those who gave us a Bible translation with a Damnationist bias.

All three views (Damnationism, Annihilationism and Universalism) were common doctrines in the early church. In fact, Universalism was the leading view. Four of the six theology schools preferred it.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Saint Steven · Jul 10, 2021

Michael Collum said: ↑
Annihilationism is a heresy too.

The Liturgist said:
And for the same reason - its not scriptural.

I disagree.
All three views are biblical and contradictory. Not fair to claim any of them are a heresy. IMHO

Here is an unbiased (remarkably) biblical view of all three.

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

Neogaia777 · Jul 10, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
We have a God of love. God takes no pleasure when we sin. God sent His son to die so we could be forgiven of our sins that's how much He loves each one of us. What kind of God would we have if He tortured people day and night and everlasting?

We are told this:

Revelations 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I agree, not everyone is going to be saved and according to the scriptures it is a minority over the majority. How much pain for God's saved saints to see their loved ones being tormented forever.

We are told, the sinners will be ashes meaning, their existence will cease to continue in the New Heaven and New Earth

"Behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. … And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts" (Malachi 4:1, 3).

The promises in the Bible are true. Jesus wants to save everyone and asks so little from us. We should all pray that God's will is our will.

God bless.

I working in two threads about this here, see this post in this thread please if you want to talk with me more or further about it, etc: Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

God Bless!

Saint Steven · Jul 10, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
We have a God of love.

Is it loving to incinerate your enemies? What did Jesus teach us was godly behavior toward our enemies?

Matthew 5:4348
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Neogaia777 · Jul 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

You are completely ignoring all the other verses I posted and are just focusing on only just one, etc...

The Bible is pretty clear that their is an everlasting place of eternal suffering/evil/pain/torment that some people go to, and/or stay in, and stay in and/or go to eternally, and that lasts and maybe has already lasted eternally, etc...

Do you know the difference between Hades and Gehenna...?

Or the first or second resurrection(s)/judgments, etc...?

God Bless!

Saint Steven · Jul 10, 2021

public hermit said:
It is significant, I think, that so many passages speak in terms of destruction. Is that justification for embracing annihilation? I'm not sure.

From the view of UR, it is what is being destroyed that is the question. The wood, hay and stubble? Or the person? WWJD?

SabbathBlessings · Jul 10, 2021

Here is a short 10 minute video talking how hell does not burn forever.

Saint Steven · Jul 10, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
You are completely ignoring all the other verses I posted and are just focusing on only just one, etc...

That was the one I wanted to comment on.
Did you want me to blast you with everything I have?

If we are playing Bible versus Bible, who will win? Please explain the rules of this game. Thanks.

Saint Steven · Jul 10, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
The Bible is pretty clear that their is an everlasting place of eternal suffering/evil/pain/torment that some people go to, and/or stay in, and stay in and/or go to eternally, etc...

Sounds like a Damnationist bias in the translation. Who should we blame that on?
This one is found in the Bible too. (lots more where that came from - the Bible)

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

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