Salvation vs : service.

Ligurian said:

What nonsense, Sidon.

It's a Kingdom Gospel parable. Matthew 13:10-11

Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

skandalizo = from skandalon; to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):--(make to) offend.

skandalon = a trap-stick (bent sapling), i.e. snare (figuratively, cause of displeasure or sin):--occasion to fall (of stumbling), offence, thing that offends, stumblingblock.

In other words, he may be invited, and maybe even gets chosen, but he's not faithful because he doesn't endure to the end. Revelation 17:14

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Before it was if a person believes they can’t stop believing then when I prove that wrong it changes to something completely different. As I said before he has no solid theology, his theology flip flops all over the place contradicting itself because it is not formulated on a solid foundation. His theology is built on sand not rock.

Sidon said:

Jesus said you must be "born again".
This is the only thing that God does for you, that causes a Spiritual Birth.
Without this, you go to hell.

So, what does not achieve the "new birth". ?????

Everything you can name that is something you would do other than "believe".


Legalism, is the theology of deception that tries to both substitute works for Grace and deny the Cross by self effort.

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Why is everything that Jesus said we must do in order to receive salvation except believing considered legalism to you? If repentance is legalism why isn’t believing just as much legalism as repentance?

Sidon said:

You stay saved the same way you were saved.
The same blood of Jesus that saved you, keeps you saved
Once you are born again, you are always born again.

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So you say. Who shall I believe, you or Lord Jesus?

You saw the words, warnings, commands, and admonitions of Lord Jesus to the Churches that I quoted in the very message you responded to; yet, you refuse to believe Lord Jesus' instruction.

So, for me, the decision is easy. I know I am saved by the grace of God through faith in Lord Jesus. As well, I am responsible to my Lord to remain faithful to Him to the end to be counted worthy by my Lord to share in His resurrection onto life that He purchased for us with His own blood.

Titus 2:11-14 (WEB)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works.

No Passage in the entire Bible teaches that God guarantees our faith to the end. Rather, the believers are admonished, commanded, and warned to remain faithful, to stand firm in the faith, to remain saved, and to receive eternal life.

No Passage states that once you are born again, you are born again forever, guaranteed.

If I believed God guarantees my faith and salvation to the end because of a past act of faith, then I would feel little motivation to be very careful to remain faithful to follow and obey Him. After all, if my salvation is guaranteed, and since I would be perfect in Heaven anyway, what purpose would there be to continually deny my passions in this earth, and to live a holy life before Him as the Gospel demands?

The Pauline Gospel warns the Christian that he is responsible for his faithfulness to the end to be eternally saved. But, you, go on your way and continue denying the inspired Words of God.

Galatians 6:9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 (WEB) 4 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB)
20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith.
Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 3:13-15 (WEB)
13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 12:25 (WEB) See that you (the Christians for whom the letter was written) do not refuse him who speaks. For if they (those OT Israelites) did not escape when they refused him who warned on the earth, how much more will we (the Christians for whom the letter was written) not escape who turn away from him who warns from heaven

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his Rest.

2 Corinthians 13:5 (WEB) 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you — unless, of course, you fail the test?

2 Corinthians 11:2 (WEB) For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy. For I married you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3 But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, so your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus, whom we didn’t preach, or if you receive a different spirit, which you didn’t receive, or a different “good news”, which you didn’t accept, you put up with that well enough.

setst777 said:

"Birth" is referring to Paul, not the Christians he is writing to.

However, in the Passage you quoted, notice that Paul offers no guarantees for the Galatians' salvation.

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setst777 said:

The "birth" is referring to Paul.

"until Christ be formed in you" is referring to the Galatians' being conformed to Paul's presentation of Lord Jesus by the Gospel he preached to them.

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Would this make Paul's "new creation" the same thing?

Sidon said:

Here is another one.....>"If i endure to the end"....i get to go to heaven.
See that?
Enduring is your savior, as you BELIEVE IN IT..........

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Enduring is my savior? That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of. No, my Lord and Savior told me that I must endure to the end to be saved. If your saying I don’t then your preaching a different gospel than Christ did. All I keep hearing from you is “SURELY YOU WILL NOT DIE”. If you reject Christ, surely you will not die. If you don’t endure to the end, surely you will not die. If you win against God, surely you will not die. If you are killed in the middle of a wild killing spree, surely you will not die. I’m starting to see a definite pattern here. Hopefully everyone else does to.

“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Sidon said:

Jesus told you that He is THE WAY, and He is not kidding. John 14:6
If you think there is another way, then you are in for a shock, as God has offered no other pardon for your sin, other than , Christ's Cross.
Believe it.

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Yes and what did He say after that in the very same conversation?

““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Yes Jesus is the Way so that means you must remain in Him to remain in the Way.

Sidon said:

God's Grace is Christ on the Cross.
When you have Jesus in you, based on being born again, then this is God's Grace.
Salvation, is God's Grace.
Its offered to all but its only applied to those who are born again, which is THE PROOF it has occurred.
To become born again, is to Trust in Christ, or..>"All that call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved".

"be saved"..... this it to become born again, by God giving you the "new birth".

All of this, is God's Grace.

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We must act in cooperation with His grace not act against it.

Sidon said:

You stay saved the same way you were saved.
The same blood of Jesus that saved you, keeps you saved
Once you are born again, you are always born again.

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So there is no new creation then. The old self remains the old self. Our manner of life remains the same without change then.

Sidon said:

Well, i do understand what you are thinking.

Paul did say that if you are trying to be righteousness, by law and commandment keeping, = you are a slave to both, and that doing this is "dung",..... and what is worse, is that the slavery,= : "the power of sin is the law".
This is the "curse of the Law".

The curse of the Law is that when you try to keep Law and Commandments to be righteous, you find that you are under a curse.
The curse is that, the law is the power of sin.

So, can you imagine the confusion of living in a place in your spirituality, of broken faith, when what is holy and true, if you try to do it to be RIGHTEOUS, it causes you to sin more.
"the LAW is THE POWER OF SIN".

Yes, i know that is logically "backwards", and......that is because these are spiritual principles, and when we try to comprehend them with our logic and analytical mind, we can't see them.
The natural mind or "the FLESH">... """""is blind to the things of God as the things of God, and cannot know them as they are Spiritually Discerned.""""

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From the Kingdom Gospel Perspective

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in My word, [then] are ye My Disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered Him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Sidon said:

The Law and commandments are holy.
But, they can't produce holiness.

All they can do, is spotlight your unrighteousness.
See that "curse"?
Jesus died to free you from that "curse......of the law"

So, the more you try to keep them to try to be RIGHTEOUS by doing that, then the more the Law and The commandments become a curse to you, ...because all they do is spotlight your unrighteousness.
See that "curse".

"Christ came to redeem us from the Curse of the Law".

How?

He did it by keeping them all, and then dies sinless.
God then takes this actual holy life He lived, this "righteousness of Christ", and Spiritually gives it to you, as "the gift of salvation", and "the gift of Righteousness"..... and takes all your sin and this becomes Christ's judgement for your sin, in your place.

Welcome to SALVATiON.

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From the Kingdom Gospel Perspective

Matthew 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it].

John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Sidon said:

There is a verse that says....>"you are crucified with Christ".
See that?
That is your "old man of sin'".
Paul says that he is gone.....to "reckon the old man DEAD"., and He is, as he is "crucified with Christ".
Christ took care of this when Jesus "became SIN"... and died, as judgement for it. And when you are born again, Christ the righteousness, JOINS your spirit, and you become "the righteousness of God, in Christ"....."Justified by faith"......possessing "Eternal Life".

How to see all this? Its like this.
Who is Salvation.
Who is Righteousness?

Its JESUS and when we have HIM IN US, then we have what He IS, as us becoming a "new creation, IN Christ".

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From the Kingdom Gospel Perspective

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Sidon said:

And a person says....."that is a lot to understand".
And a teacher says..... you are to BELIEVE IT, and in the believing God will show the revelation.

See, all things with God are Trust, Faith, Spirit, Love, Righteousness, and they all are GIFTS.

The Bible says at as high as Heaven is from earth is how far God's WAYS are above our ability to comprehend them.

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From the Kingdom Gospel Perspective

Esaias 55:3 Give heed with your ears, and follow My ways: hearken to Me, and your soul shall live in prosperity; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, the sure mercies of David. 4 Behold I have made him a testimony among the Gentiles, a prince and commander to the Gentiles. 5 Nations which know thee not, shall call upon thee, and peoples which are not acquainted with thee, shall flee to thee for refuge, for the sake of the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel; for He has glorified thee. 6 Seek ye the Lord, and when ye find Him, call upon Him; and when He shall draw nigh to you, 7 let the ungodly leave his ways, and the transgressor his counsels: and let him return to the Lord, and he shall find mercy; for He shall abundantly pardon your sins. 8 For My counsels are not as your counsels, nor are My ways as your ways, saith the Lord. 9 But as the heaven is distant from the earth, so is My way distant from your ways, and your thoughts from My mind. 10 For as rain shall come down, or snow, from heaven, and shall not return until it have saturated the earth, and it bring forth, and bud, and give seed to the sower, and bread for food: 11 so shall My word be, whatever shall proceed out of My mouth, it shall by no means turn back, until all the things which I willed shall have been accomplished; and I will make thy ways prosperous, and will effect My commands. 12 For ye shall go forth with joy, and shall be taught with gladness: for the mountains and the hills shall exult to welcome you with joy, and all the trees of the field shall applaud with their branches. 13 And instead of the bramble shall come up the cypress, and instead of the nettle shall come up the myrtle: and the Lord shall be for a name, and for an everlasting sign, and shall not fail.LXX

Ligurian said:

Would this make Paul's "new creation" the same thing?

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I am not quite sure what you mean, but let me respond to the "new creation."

The New Creation in Christ Jesus is ours by a repentant faith demonstrated by denying self, and living to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life – walking in the light as He is in the light.

2 Corinthians 5:15-17 (WEB)
15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again. . . 17 Therefore (for this reason) IF anyone is in Christ (by faith - denying self and living for Jesus vs 15), he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

So, those who have denied themselves, and now live to HIM - to follow Lord Jesus (Verse 15) - they become a new creation (verse 17 "Therefore")

We are “in Christ” by this Gospel faith, a faith by which we commit to deny self and follow Lord Jesus.

When we are “in Christ” in this way, we are now living a New Life in the Spirit –a new creation. All things are now become new.

Therefore, IF a person repented before God and believes in Lord Jesus, demonstrated in a commitment to deny yourself and then commit to obey Lord Jesus (vs 15), only then the Spirit wills to indwell you and lead the believer. This is sanctification, and the new life in Christ, and is the only faith by which God saves us, becoming a new creation.

If the believer continues denying self and following and obeying Lord Jesus, then the believer is in the faith, and he is a new creation. This is called walking in His Spirit, showing that your new life in this world is to live for Him who saves you.

Not everyone will remain faithful to follow Lord Jesus, but those who do continue in the faith are a new creation. Faith is sanctification onto God, and is the new life in Christ Jesus.

So, as the believer commits to deny self and then follow Lord Jesus he is a new creation. To be a new creation in Christ by faithful obedience, the believer is a good tree bearing good fruit - this is regeneration of the Spirit and Word. In this way, the believer remain in His love.

John 15:8-10 (WEB)
8 “In this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

As the believer sanctifies himself to God by faith, following Lord Jesus, only then will God forgive him of his sins, and accredit righteousness to him, indwelling Him by His Spirit to free him from sins power, and guide the believer to live out his faith - but only as the believer remains committed to live out his faith demonstrated by walking in the Spirit that now indwells him.

Ligurian said:

"add to the Cross their gospel of works" is putting the cart before the horse, since the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven came before the gospel of grace to the gentiles. You seem to be saying that Paul really was talking about the Apostles of Galilee in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.

So do you plan on answering my question about your "enemies of the cross" statement? Or would you just like to agree with your apostle, and admit that Galatians 2:7-9 really does teach two different gospels?

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Sidon said:

Here is what you can believe.
If you are not born again, you are not going to heaven.
And the "gospel" that you have to believe, is "Jesus on the Cross".

Jesus told you that He is THE WAY, and He is not kidding. John 14:6
If you think there is another way, then you are in for a shock, as God has offered no other pardon for your sin, other than , Christ's Cross.
Believe it.

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From the Kingdom Gospel Perspective

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto Him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. 7 If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.

Sidon said:

Also, i did answer your "enemies of the Cross" Question.
Want me to do it again?
NP.

An enemy of the Cross is anyone who adds to the Cross their gospel of self effort or commandment keeping.
Its a person who teaches that the Cross is a part of Salvation, but the commandments and their self effort is the completion.
See that?
This is denying the finished work of Jesus ON the Cross.
This is denying that "Jesus is THE WAY"
This is denying that the blood and death of Christ is the only thing that God accepts to accept you.
This theology is the subverting of the Gospel of the Grace of God.

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Matthew 24:13-14 And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth Me no more; but ye see Me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.KJV

Ligurian said:

In other words, Paul doesn't say the words "born again", or you'd've quoted it.

Now, Romans 10:13 and Acts 2:21 both quote from Joel:

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. 29 And on My servants and on My handmaids in those days will I pour out of My Spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in heaven, and upon the earth, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved: for in mount Sion and in Jerusalem shall the saved one be as the Lord has said, and they that have glad tidings preached to them, whom the Lord has called.LXX

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Two very different gospels...
Galatians 2:7-9 Galatians 1:6 Galatians 3:2 John 14:15-17

Was there another gospel where the Holy Spirit is given by the works of law?

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Sidon said:

What are you saying now..

Listen...

"call on the name" and "believing in Jesus".......are the same Things.

Who is the NAME of the Lord that you call on as found in Joel's prophecy of JESUS the coming Messiah.??

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Joel doesn't say, because Joel doesn't know... at that time and place, the Name of the Lord is new. But thank you, thank you so much for making me do the research. Because Joel completes the Revelation question I've had.

setst777 said:

As the believer sanctifies himself to God by faith, following Lord Jesus, only then will God forgive him of his sins, and accredit righteousness to him, indwelling Him by His Spirit to free him from sins power, and guide the believer to live out his faith - but only as the believer remains committed to live out his faith demonstrated by walking in the Spirit that now indwells him.

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The only problem I have with this explanation is the first sentence. I wouldn’t say we sanctify ourself but rather thru our cooperation with the Holy Spirit He sanctifies us. The sanctification is His work thru our cooperation. So in my opinion sanctification is a synergetic work both of us and the Holy Spirit.

BNR32FAN said:

Jesus said some will believe for a while then they will fall away.

“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So stop trying to save yourself by believing. Lol

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BNR32FAN quotes a parable... I don't read the context, so I don't know why.

Sidon said:

yes.
they had not "root".
This is the "root of jesse". Isaiah 11
This is the Root Himself, who is Jesus The Christ.

So, if you have no "root", you have no "Christ in you".

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A grace-gospel-believer tries his best to interpret the parable.

Ligurian said:

What nonsense, Sidon.

It's a Kingdom Gospel parable. Matthew 13:10-11

Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

skandalizo = from skandalon; to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):--(make to) offend.

skandalon = a trap-stick (bent sapling), i.e. snare (figuratively, cause of displeasure or sin):--occasion to fall (of stumbling), offence, thing that offends, stumblingblock.

In other words, he may be invited, and maybe even gets chosen, but he's not faithful because he doesn't endure to the end. Revelation 17:14

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I toss my pearls of wisdom in...

Sidon said:

The root of Jesse is Christ.
That's not a parable.
Isaiah, says that the spirit of God shall rest upon Him.
It did, and does.

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And grace-gospel-believer guy sticks to his guns, adds the oddity of "that's not a parable," and doesn't care who's qualified to understand parables.

Matthew 13:10 And the Disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
19 When any one heareth the word of the Kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

Ligurian said:

BNR32FAN quotes a parable... I don't read the context, so I don't know why.



A grace-gospel-believer tries his best to interpret the parable.



I toss my pearls of wisdom in...



And grace-gospel-believer guy sticks to his guns, adds the oddity of "that's not a parable," and doesn't care who's qualified to understand parables.

Matthew 13:10 And the Disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
19 When any one heareth the word of the Kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

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Some have ears to hear and some don’t. I’m guessing it’s the ones that say parables can’t be used to formulate doctrine that don’t.

Ligurian said:

Matthew 13:10 And the Disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
19 When any one heareth the word of the Kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

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BNR32FAN said:

Some have ears to hear and some don’t. I’m guessing it’s the ones that say parables can’t be used to formulate doctrine that don’t.

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Thank you so much for making me do the research.

These without ears have even their calling removed by the enemy... why don't they have ears?
Those who do have ears seem to've had John 15 fruits... for a while.
So it's Jesus' Disciples who got purged by the Father.

John 15:2 Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me.

purgeth = καθαίρει
Cognate: 2508 kathaírō – make clean by purging (removing undesirable elements); hence, "pruned (purged)"; eliminating what is fruitless by purifying (making unmixed). See 2513 (katharos).
Strong's Greek: 2508. καθαίρω (kathairó) -- to cleanse

BNR32FAN said:

Some have ears to hear and some don’t. I’m guessing it’s the ones that say parables can’t be used to formulate doctrine that don’t.

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Parables had an element of judgment in them for unbelieving Israel:

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."—Matthew 3

Knowing this, why would the Body of Christ be looking at parables for doctrine? We are insiders and have THIS:

"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"—Ephesians 3

BNR32FAN said:

The only problem I have with this explanation is the first sentence. I wouldn’t say we sanctify ourself but rather thru our cooperation with the Holy Spirit He sanctifies us. The sanctification is His work thru our cooperation. So in my opinion sanctification is a synergetic work both of us and the Holy Spirit.

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From the Kingdom Gospel Perspective

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
katharos = clean, clear, pure.

Here, it's a process involving works: Abide, stay, continue, persevere, be faithful.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
hagiazo = to make holy, purify or consecrate, sanctify.

It's entirely different in the grace gospel, isn't it?

BNR32FAN said:

The only problem I have with this explanation is the first sentence. I wouldn’t say we sanctify ourself but rather thru our cooperation with the Holy Spirit He sanctifies us. The sanctification is His work thru our cooperation. So in my opinion sanctification is a synergetic work both of us and the Holy Spirit.

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Yes, I understand your concern. And you are right, we are sanctified through cooperation with the Holy Spirit. The power to live a sanctified life is by the Holy Spirit, but it all happens because of faith (a continuous faith) in Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:17-18 (WEB) 17 delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom I send you, 18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Through the Gospel Message, when we believe, we are turned from darkness to light (John 8:12; John 12:46), from the power of Satan to God – sanctified by faith in Lord Jesus.

But only as the believer continues in the faith demonstrated by living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit who indwells them by faith (Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:24-25):

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

So, by means of the Spirit, we (those who believe) are responsible to sanctify ourselves to God:

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB)
3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who do not know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

Blessings

GOD Shines Forth! said:

Parables had an element of judgment in them for unbelieving Israel:

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."—Matthew 3

Knowing this, why would the Body of Christ be looking at parables for doctrine?

"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"—Ephesians 3

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Galatians 2:7-9 because not everyone's a gentile

What Gospel was Jesus teaching?

Matthew 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, He departed into Galilee; 4:13 And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 4:15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. 4:19 And He saith unto them, Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men. 4:20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed Him. 4:21 And going on from thence, He saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and He called them. 4:22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed Him. 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

What Gospel did the Twelve Apostles teach?

Matthew 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

What Gospel did the Eleven Disciples teach?

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 28:17 And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him: but some doubted. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.