AntiChrist and Two Witnesses

mindlight · Jul 9, 2021

How will the AntiChrist be in the temple if the Two Witnesses are preaching in or around there?
It says in scripture that at about the same time they start their ministry global antiChrist forces will occupy Jerusalem.

The two witnesses are empowered (Rev 11) and not even the AntiChrist can overpower them until the appointed time. Their powers include:

1) Fire comes out of their mouths to devour God's enemies
2) They can send plagues and turn water into blood
3) They control the weather. No rain for the 42 months of their ministry.

So how can the AntiChrist desecrate the Temple, setting up the abomination that causes desolation, if the witnesses are there? They would simply vaporize his minions if he tried.

Guojing · Jul 9, 2021

mindlight said:
How will the AntiChrist be in the temple if the Two Witnesses are preaching in or around there?
It says in scripture that at about the same time they start their ministry global antiChrist forces will occupy Jerusalem.

The two witnesses are empowered (Rev 11) and not even the AntiChrist can overpower them until the appointed time. Their powers include:

1) Fire comes out of their mouths to devour God's enemies
2) They can send plagues and turn water into blood
3) They control the weather. No rain for the 42 months of their ministry.

So how can the AntiChrist desecrate the Temple, setting up the abomination that causes desolation, if the witnesses are there? They would simply vaporize his minions if he tried.

Rev 11:7 also says they will be killed eventually by the AC.

mindlight · Jul 9, 2021

Guojing said:
Rev 11:7 also says they will be killed eventually by the AC.

Yes at end of 42 months and their bodies will be left in public square 3.5 days before being resurrected.

So are you saying the AC will use this window of opportunity to desecrate the temple?

Guojing · Jul 9, 2021

mindlight said:
Yes at end of 42 months and their bodies will be left in public square 3.5 days before being resurrected.

So are you saying the AC will use this window of opportunity to desecrate the temple?

Possibly, must it happen before the midpoint of the 7 years, or can it be after?

mindlight · Jul 9, 2021

Guojing said:
Possibly, must it happen before the midpoint of the 7 years, or can it be after?

Well this is the Daniel 7 (70th week) = 7 years idea that Dispensationalists use. So the two witnesses prophesy only for the first half of the Tribulation allowing the AC to do as he wishes and desecrate away after they are resurrected and go to be with God.

An answer on this theme is probably the correct one. The AC can desecrate the temple because he is no longer restrained from doing so by the Two Witnesses. In the period in which he does this he has free reign.

Guojing · Jul 9, 2021

mindlight said:
Well this is the Daniel 7 (70th week) = 7 years idea that Dispensationalists use. So the two witnesses prophesy only for the first half of the Tribulation allowing the AC to do as he wishes and desecrate away after they are resurrected and go to be with God.

An answer on this theme is probably the correct one. The AC can desecrate the temple because he is no longer restrained from doing so by the Two Witnesses. In the period in which he does this he has free reign.

Yes, most of the nastier stuff typically happen in the 2nd half of the 7 years. Revelation 13:5, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:11-12

Carl Emerson · Jul 9, 2021

mindlight said:
How will the AntiChrist be in the temple if the Two Witnesses are preaching in or around there?
It says in scripture that at about the same time they start their ministry global antiChrist forces will occupy Jerusalem.

The two witnesses are empowered (Rev 11) and not even the AntiChrist can overpower them until the appointed time. Their powers include:

1) Fire comes out of their mouths to devour God's enemies
2) They can send plagues and turn water into blood
3) They control the weather. No rain for the 42 months of their ministry.

So how can the AntiChrist desecrate the Temple, setting up the abomination that causes desolation, if the witnesses are there? They would simply vaporize his minions if he tried.

They are not vaporising anyone unless the Father says so...

Like Jesus they can only do what they see the Father doing.

Ivan Hlavanda · Jul 9, 2021

I believe the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah as both been taken into Heaven while still alive and not experience physical death.

Guojing · Jul 9, 2021

Ivan Hlavanda said:
I believe the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah as both been taken into Heaven while still alive and not experience physical death.

Didn't Jesus state John 3:13 that no man has ascended into the heaven?

Ivan Hlavanda · Jul 9, 2021

Guojing said:
Didn't Jesus state John 3:13 that no man has ascended into the heaven?

Yes, they did not ascend where God's throne is. But remember, Paul spoke about 3rd Heaven. I believe this is where the paradise is. This is where Jesus went after His death (He told Mary that He still did not ascent to His Heavenly Father yet).

Also the parable of a rich man and Lazarus from Luke 16...I do not believe this is a parable. 1 because Jesus did not say 'I am going to tell you a parable' and 2, He never names anyone in the parable so I believe this to be a true story that happened. Therefore a paradise by the looks of it is in the centre of the Earth, maybe they are there.

A case came be also made, and some believe that, that Enoch and Elijah were only transferred to a different part of Earth and died later. Some people think the two witnesses will be Moses and Elijah as they were the two at the mount of transfiguration.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2021

mindlight said:
How will the AntiChrist be in the temple if the Two Witnesses are preaching in or around there?
It says in scripture that at about the same time they start their ministry global antiChrist forces will occupy Jerusalem.

The two witnesses are empowered (Rev 11) and not even the AntiChrist can overpower them until the appointed time. Their powers include:

1) Fire comes out of their mouths to devour God's enemies
2) They can send plagues and turn water into blood
3) They control the weather. No rain for the 42 months of their ministry.

So how can the AntiChrist desecrate the Temple, setting up the abomination that causes desolation, if the witnesses are there? They would simply vaporize his minions if he tried.

mindlight,the two witnesses are in Revelation 11.

The person is no longer the Antichrist (phony King of Israel), but the beast in that chapter, when he has them killed.

I will explain in words you can understand, what is going on.

The 7 years begin when little horn person, following the Gog/Magog event, is perceived by the Jews to the long awaited messiah. He will be anointed the King of Israel. That is what actually makes him the "Antichrist".

He will either read the law of Moses himself, or oversee it being read, from the temple mount. That begins the confirms the covenant for 7 years, a requirement that Moses made back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 of all future leaders of Israel.

It is not a peace treaty that is so often said.

At the time, the two witnesses will be at the temple mount - likely in the current western wall setting of today, warning the people not to trust him and that Jesus is the real messiah.

That will go on for about three years, all in the first half, no doubt an irritant to the Antichrist, but he will not have turned to violent mode because he is not the beast during that time.

He will be on the temple mount grounds, inner courtyard, as the animal sacrifices will be taking place there. The brazen altar will be outside of the temple sanctuary building - that the inside of has restricted entry except by the priests.

At around the three years mark (because we don't have enough infomation to know exactly to the day when) the Antichrist will stop the daily sacrifice, go into the temple sanctuary, showing everyone that he is God, sitting in the Holy of Holies chamber, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

No doubt he will have a TV broadcast crew with him to televise the whole thing as no one can actually go into the sanctuary building under prior conditions, to see it happen.

The act will reveal that he is the man of sin, and not the thought to be messiah after all. The Jews will mortified, and will refuse him to continue as their King of Israel. Ending his stint as the Antichrist.

That's what you have to get clear. The person is the Antichrist only for the time he is the King of Israel, instead of and against the rightful King of Israel Jesus.

So as the revealed man of sin, he starts trying to get rid of the two witnesses. His enforcement police cannot harm them, because they send the fire out of their mouths.

Shortly after his audacious act of claiming to be God, God has strangers come against the revealed man of sin and they kill him - likely an assassination. Ezekiel 28:1-10 documents the whole thing.

There is a big funeral for the person, televised, while his soul is in hell. God in disdain for the person brings him back to life, before his body is ever put in a tomb. Isaiah 14:15-20.

With the whole world watching, he sits up in his casket, back to life.

It is then that he begins his time as the beast, having the beast nature.

And the false prophet has an statue image made of him, and placed on the temple mount grounds - where everyone can see it and be forced to come and bow to it - and not inside the sanctuary building.

The abomination of desolation.

That will be the signal for the Jews to flee to the mountains. As the two witnesses will have been telling them during their 1260 days.

The beast makes war on the two witnesses, with them causing the plagues on the world, showing that he is not God he claims to be.

The Jews are fleeing to the mountains the whole time.

For 75 days, they flee into the mountains, aided by the two witnesses. (between day 1185 and day 1260).

The beast finally overcomes the two witnesses and has them killed on day 1260. Reinforcing to the world his claim of having achieved God-hood. They will say who is like unto the beast, who can make war against him - from Revelation 13.

On day 1263.5, the two witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven. Leaving the beast to rule the world with 42 months left in the 7 years, unhampered by their presence.

Guojing · Jul 9, 2021

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Yes, they did not ascend where God's throne is. But remember, Paul spoke about 3rd Heaven. I believe this is where the paradise is. This is where Jesus went after His death (He told Mary that He still did not ascent to His Heavenly Father yet).

Also the parable of a rich man and Lazarus from Luke 16...I do not believe this is a parable. 1 because Jesus did not say 'I am going to tell you a parable' and 2, He never names anyone in the parable so I believe this to be a true story that happened. Therefore a paradise by the looks of it is in the centre of the Earth, maybe they are there.

A case came be also made, and some believe that, that Enoch and Elijah were only transferred to a different part of Earth and died later. Some people think the two witnesses will be Moses and Elijah as they were the two at the mount of transfiguration.

Yes, I believe they only went up to the 1st heaven, but they later came down and died again. This comes also from Hebrews 11:13, after Enoch was described in vs 5, so we can vs 13 applies to him as well.

I believe the 2 witnesses with be Moses and Elijah. Since the Tribulation is where God is dealing with the nation Israel, Enoch is way too early to have any impact on the nation Israel. And for Israel, Moses and Elijah are their 2 important figureheads.

mindlight · Jul 9, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
They are not vaporising anyone unless the Father says so...

Like Jesus they can only do what they see the Father doing.

The verse in rev 11:5 reads like this:

If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.

This sounds more like a reflex action than something resulting from an intense prayer session. These witnesses are open to and listening to God but I would assume they were gifted to know who was a true enemy and who not. Just as Jesus only performed miracles as his Father led Him so also they have the same kind of guidance built in when it came to enemies.

mindlight · Jul 9, 2021

Ivan Hlavanda said:
I believe the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah as both been taken into Heaven while still alive and not experience physical death.

The only rationale for that being in practice that both have not died yet. In this way they come back to be given the opportunity to prove their credentials even unto death.

But this is all speculative in practice we do not know.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2021

mindlight said:
But this is all speculative in practice we do not know.

I agree.

mindlight · Jul 9, 2021

Douggg said:
mindlight,the two witnesses are in Revelation 11.

The person is no longer the Antichrist (phony King of Israel), but the beast in that chapter, when he has them killed.

I will explain in words you can understand, what is going on.

The 7 years begin when little horn person, following the Gog/Magog event, is perceived by the Jews to the long awaited messiah. He will be anointed the King of Israel. That is what actually makes him the "Antichrist".

He will either read the law of Moses himself, or oversee it being read, from the temple mount. That begins the confirms the covenant for 7 years, a requirement that Moses made back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 of all future leaders of Israel.

It is not a peace treaty that is so often said.

At the time, the two witnesses will be at the temple mount - likely in the current western wall setting of today, warning the people not to trust him and that Jesus is the real messiah.

That will go on for about three years, all in the first half, no doubt an irritant to the Antichrist, but he will not have turned to violent mode because he is not the beast during that time.

He will be on the temple mount grounds, inner courtyard, as the animal sacrifices will be taking place there. The brazen altar will be outside of the temple sanctuary building - that the inside of has restricted entry except by the priests.

At around the three years mark (because we don't have enough infomation to know exactly to the day when) the Antichrist will stop the daily sacrifice, go into the temple sanctuary, showing everyone that he is God, sitting in the Holy of Holies chamber, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

No doubt he will have a TV broadcast crew with him to televise the whole thing as no one can actually go into the sanctuary building under prior conditions, to see it happen.

The act will reveal that he is the man of sin, and not the thought to be messiah after all. The Jews will mortified, and will refuse him to continue as their King of Israel. Ending his stint as the Antichrist.

That's what you have to get clear. The person is the Antichrist only for the time he is the King of Israel, instead of and against the rightful King of Israel Jesus.

So as the revealed man of sin, he starts trying to get rid of the two witnesses. His enforcement police cannot harm them, because they send the fire out of their mouths.

Shortly after his audacious act of claiming to be God, God has strangers come against the revealed man of sin and they kill him - likely an assassination. Ezekiel 28:1-10 documents the whole thing.

There is a big funeral for the person, televised, while his soul is in hell. God in disdain for the person brings him back to life, before his body is ever put in a tomb. Isaiah 14:15-20.

With the whole world watching, he sits up in his casket, back to life.

It is then that he begins his time as the beast, having the beast nature.

And the false prophet has an statue image made of him, and placed on the temple mount grounds - where everyone can see it and be forced to come and bow to it - and not inside the sanctuary building.

The abomination of desolation.

That will be the signal for the Jews to flee to the mountains. As the two witnesses will have been telling them during their 1260 days.

The beast makes war on the two witnesses, with them causing the plagues on the world, showing that he is not God he claims to be.

The Jews are fleeing to the mountains the whole time.

For 75 days, they flee into the mountains, aided by the two witnesses. (between day 1185 and day 1260).

The beast finally overcomes the two witnesses and has them killed on day 1260. Reinforcing to the world his claim of having achieved God-hood. They will say who is like unto the beast, who can make war against him - from Revelation 13.

On day 1263.5, the two witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven. Leaving the beast to rule the world with 42 months left in the 7 years, unhampered by their presence.

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You have way too much detail there for me as i do not believe that anyone can be so specific. We can weave narratives around what we know but they are just models and we should hang loose on the details of these because we do not know.

But from what you said:

There is no case to separate AC from Beast. The horn that looked liked he had a mortal wound could have that from the very beginning and there is no need to tie this to the middle of the Tribulation.

The Gog Magog event is also not clear or easy to define. An unspecified threat is eliminated against Israel is all we really know.

You have a big thing about the AC establishing his credentials with the Jews. The Beast that comes from out of the Sea is more readily identified with the gentiles and so has no need to pander to Jewish feelings specifically. He is not a Jew and does not need to claim the Jewish crown to make his Messianic credentials work. Indeed the characteristic of the Beast is more "might is right". He simply asserts his rights. The idea that the AC would read the bible out aloud is preposterous, would he not explode or something or start to steam if he read words that condemned him so clearly.

Dispensationalist timescales are way too precise about the events here. The sequence and the meaning remains quite vague and blurry in reality.

Also I see no necessity in a daily sacrifice being restored. Jews have their prayers and fastings these days. There is a need to remove whatever Muslim mosque sit on the Temple Mount and I believe this will happen before the events of the Tribulation. Islam will be long gone and there will either be a synagogue or a church on the temple mount when the witnesses preach. In which case also the whole thing about the Western Wall being the place they do this becomes redundant as they could preach anywhere on the Temple Mount.

Given the powers given to the Witnesses I cannot believe that even the AC could have statue set up to himself until these are out of the way. So the desecration of the Temple has to occur after they rise to heaven.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2021

mindlight said:
You have way too much detail there for me as i do not believe that anyone can be so specific. We can weave narratives around what we know but they are just models and we should hang loose on the details of these because we do not know.

There is enough information given to construct a detailed timeline of end time events.

The infallible "framework" for the time line of events is in Ezekiel 39, because it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text of v21-29.

mindlight said:
There is no case to separate AC from Beast.

You couldn't be more wrong. Antichrist is based on the concept of the Christ - the promised king of Israel, descended from David to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety.

The other is the beast, and as the name suggests will be tyrant, a dictator, the final Julio-Claudian over the Roman Empire - in end times, the EU in it last stage.

mindlight said:
The Beast that comes from out of the Sea is more readily identified with the gentiles and so has no need to pander to Jewish feelings specifically. He is not a Jew and does not need to claim the Jewish crown to make his Messianic credentials work.

Revelation 13 indicates that the person will come out of the gentile world and not Israel.
That the person will be a Jew is not determined from Revelation 13.

That he will be descended from the Julio-Claudians is.

Head 7 is the little horn. He will be killed and brought back to life, as the beast.

mindlight said:
He is not a Jew and does not need to claim the Jewish crown to make his Messianic credentials work. Indeed the characteristic of the Beast is more "might is right". He simply asserts his rights. The idea that the AC would read the bible out aloud is preposterous, would he not explode or something or start to steam if he read words that condemned him so clearly.

The person will be a Jew. And at the time of being anointed the King of Israel, he has the law of Moses read, likely the ten commandments, he will not be thinking that he has achieved God-hood.

It is not until after being the Antichrist, King of Israel, for a while that he magnifies himself in heart, to think he has achieved God-hood.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

mindlight said:
Also I see no necessity in a daily sacrifice being restored. Jews have their prayers and fastings these days.

The Jews do prayers in lieu of the animal sacrifices because those can only be done when the temple is standing and operational. Do the Jews want to the temple rebuilt and operational? Yes, certainly they do. They long for it.

In order stop the daily sacrifice, as it says in Daniel 8 and 9, the daily sacrifice has to be operational at the time.

mindlight said:
Given the powers given to the Witnesses I cannot believe that even the AC could have statue set up to himself until these are out of the way. So the desecration of the Temple has to occur after they rise to heaven.

Your calling the person the Antichrist after he has become the beast, is like a reporter in Germany calling Angela Merkel, the burgermeister of Nuremberg - acting as if they are the same thing.

Carl Emerson · Jul 9, 2021

mindlight said:
Just as Jesus only performed miracles as his Father led Him so also they have the same kind of guidance built in when it came to enemies.

This then is not a 'reflex action'...

Timtofly · Jul 9, 2021

mindlight said:
How will the AntiChrist be in the temple if the Two Witnesses are preaching in or around there?
It says in scripture that at about the same time they start their ministry global antiChrist forces will occupy Jerusalem.

The two witnesses are empowered (Rev 11) and not even the AntiChrist can overpower them until the appointed time. Their powers include:

1) Fire comes out of their mouths to devour God's enemies
2) They can send plagues and turn water into blood
3) They control the weather. No rain for the 42 months of their ministry.

So how can the AntiChrist desecrate the Temple, setting up the abomination that causes desolation, if the witnesses are there? They would simply vaporize his minions if he tried.

Satan is put in charge of the earth for 42 months. This is the last harvest after Christ and the 144k gather the final harvest. The job of the 2 witnesses is to encourage many to get their heads chopped off instead of receiving the mark and having one's name removed from the Lamb's book of life.

Disrupting those with the mark so more will get their heads chopped off than recieve the mark.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2021

mindlight said:
There is no case to separate AC from Beast. The horn that looked liked he had a mortal wound could have that from the very beginning and there is no need to tie this to the middle of the Tribulation.

You do not understand that when Jesus removed the seals on the book on the end times in Chapter 6 forward, John was presented the visions in segments.

Chapter 13 is a segment - the timing of that chapter is with 42 months left in the 7 years.

Chapter 12 is a segment - the timing of that chapter is with the entire 7 years remaining.

Both chapters have introductory verses - that set up the rest of the chapter.

In Revelation 13, verses 1-3 setup the rest of the chapter
In Revelation 12, verse 1-5 setup the rest of the chapter

Now here is how a person can tell that the mortally wounded head takes place in the middle part of the 7 years. By the study of the heads and horns, crowns or no crowns. If you haven't done that study, devoted a lengthy amount of time to it - you are going to likely be confused - by what I am presenting.

But here goes...

Revelation 12, the dragon representing the beast, has 7 heads with crowns. But no wounded head. What that means is king 7 has come to power, right before the 7 years starts - completing the prophecy of the seven kings in Revelation 17:10.

Revelation 13, with 42 months left in that chapter, the beast has 7 heads, but no crowns. The crowns are gone. The prophecy of the seven kings is over because king 7 will have been killed. But comes back to life, as the beast, king 8, from Revelation 17:11.

Revelation 13 - the status of the beast with 42 months left.
Revelation 12 - the status of the beast with 7 years left.
Revelation 17 - the status of the beast at the time of John, first century.

When the person is killed and comes back to life - he will be possessed by the spirit of the original serpent in the garden of eden. Which is not allowed out of the bottomless pit until the person is killed and comes back to life.

Which is why in Revelation 12, Satan the dragon, and in Revelation 17, Satan the scarlet colored beast - is seen by John, because the actual beast spirit is in the bottomless pit at those junctures in time - and no-one can see into the bottomless pit.

John in Revelation 17:8 is "told" by the angel about the beast in the bottomless pit which was alive, but not any more in John's day. John himself didn't actually peer into the bottomless pit.

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, a great gulf separated the two, which couldn't be crossed. Lazarsus was on the side called Abraham's bosom. The rich man was on the side of torment. Luke 16:19-31

The great gulf is likely the bottomless pit.

AntiChrist and Two Witnesses

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