You don’t obey your way into faith

Rescued One · Jul 8, 2021

"You don’t obey your way into faith (the Pharisees proved that); you believe your way into obedience."
--- Bob Sorge

What do you think? I never heard of Bob Sorge until this evening.

Sabertooth · Jul 8, 2021

Old Lady said:
"You don’t obey your way into faith (the Pharisees proved that); you believe your way into obedience."
--- Bob Sorge

What do you think?

“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love,

just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you,

and that your joy may be full.

This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
No longer do I call you servants,

for a servant does not know what his master is doing;

but I have called you friends,

for all things that I heard from My Father
I have made known to you." John 15:9-15 NKJV

Mark Quayle · Jul 8, 2021

Old Lady said:
"You don’t obey your way into faith (the Pharisees proved that); you believe your way into obedience."
--- Bob Sorge

What do you think? I never heard of Bob Sorge until this evening.

'Obedience' is a little like 'belief'. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

He has a point, but obedience without submission isn't really obedience, and belief without the God-given faith of Hebrews 11:1 is only intellectual/emotional/mental.

HiltiesGwerf · Jul 8, 2021

I think it's a catchy statement, but....

Hebrews 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

The Hebrews author pointedly equates disobedience with unbelief. One doesn't obey their way into faith - because faith is obedience, or at least obedience is a defining characteristic of faith.

Jesus was pretty pointed about obedience: Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Paul wrote the Thessalonians: "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus." 2 Thess 1:6ff

Peter wrote something similar, using the same phrase: "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?"

The effectiveness of the gospel [in our lives] is a direct function of our obedience to it (to Him).

We know [mere] belief is not faith - Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. (John 12:42ff) - and,
James 2:19 "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."

Something more than mere mental assent defines [true] belief, faith. Obedience. It is our obedience to His words that defines our faith in Him. Again, in John 12:47f:

"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

Rejecting Jesus is not keeping His Word. Conversely, RECEIVING Jesus IS keeping His Word.

First part of Sorge's statement: "You don’t obey your way into faith (the Pharisees proved that);"

This is just flat out wrong; what the Pharisees proved (and Jesus pointed out numerous times) was that they did everything BUT obey the Scripture. Jesus was abundantly clear on that score. In fact, it's one of the KEY REASONS they hated Him (God) so, and why they put Him to death! Mt 26:59; 27:1; 27:20

2nd part of Sorge's statement: "you believe your way into obedience."

This too is just flat out wrong. Belief IS obedience; obedience IS belief. You don't do one to get to the other; they're one in the same. One *might* assert the converse is true (not the same as the above, btw) - you obey your way into belief - much like a child can eventually learn to believe in their parent's wisdom by repeatedly obeying them, but that's not biblical belief imho (per the verses above).

No. It's a catchy statement, but nothing more. And I don't know who Bob Sorge is, but I'm always a little leery of people that try to convey biblical truth with catchy phrases - not that they're all wrong, mind you, but that they can tend to simplify truths past the point of accuracy.

Rescued One · Jul 8, 2021

Sabertooth said:
“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love,

just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love...

I love those verses.

rturner76 · Jul 8, 2021

I think obedience sharpens one's faith and helps one's faith grow.

Hazelelponi · Jul 8, 2021

Old Lady said:
"You don’t obey your way into faith (the Pharisees proved that); you believe your way into obedience."
--- Bob Sorge

What do you think? I never heard of Bob Sorge until this evening.

It's a correct and biblically accurate quote, and a good way of putting it.

We are saved as Paul said: While we were dead in our sins and trespass, then we recieve the gift of Gods Holy Spirit and become a new creation in Christ, then our desires turn away from sin and towards obedience to God in love.

But it begins with faith, obedience without faith is worthless, but true faith begets obedience. Not sinless perfection mind you, but definitely a heart for God.

rturner76 · Jul 8, 2021

Hazelelponi said:
It's a correct and biblically accurate quote, and a good way of putting it.

We are saved as Paul said: While we were dead in our sins and trespass, then we recieve the gift of Gods Holy Spirit and become a new creation in Christ, then our desires turn away from sin and towards obedience to God in love.

But it begins with faith, obedience without faith is worthless, but true faith begets obedience. Not sinless perfection mind you, but definitely a heart for God.

Good point well made......

Rescued One · Jul 8, 2021

Those Pharisees:

John 10
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

HiltiesGwerf said:
I think it's a catchy statement, but....

Hebrews 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

The Hebrews author pointedly equates disobedience with unbelief. One doesn't obey their way into faith - because faith is obedience, or at least obedience is a defining characteristic of faith.

Jesus was pretty pointed about obedience: Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Paul wrote the Thessalonians: "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus." 2 Thess 1:6ff

Peter wrote something similar, using the same phrase: "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?"

The effectiveness of the gospel [in our lives] is a direct function of our obedience to it (to Him).

We know [mere] belief is not faith - Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. (John 12:42ff) - and,
James 2:19 "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."

Something more than mere mental assent defines [true] belief, faith. Obedience. It is our obedience to His words that defines our faith in Him. Again, in John 12:47f:

"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

Rejecting Jesus is not keeping His Word. Conversely, RECEIVING Jesus IS keeping His Word.

First part of Sorge's statement: "You don’t obey your way into faith (the Pharisees proved that);"

This is just flat out wrong; what the Pharisees proved (and Jesus pointed out numerous times) was that they did everything BUT obey the Scripture. Jesus was abundantly clear on that score. In fact, it's one of the KEY REASONS they hated Him (God) so, and why they put Him to death! Mt 26:59; 27:1; 27:20

2nd part of Sorge's statement: "you believe your way into obedience."

This too is just flat out wrong. Belief IS obedience; obedience IS belief. You don't do one to get to the other; they're one in the same. One *might* assert the converse is true (not the same as the above, btw) - you obey your way into belief - much like a child can eventually learn to believe in their parent's wisdom by repeatedly obeying them, but that's not biblical belief imho (per the verses above).

No. It's a catchy statement, but nothing more. And I don't know who Bob Sorge is, but I'm always a little leery of people that try to convey biblical truth with catchy phrases - not that they're all wrong, mind you, but that they can tend to simplify truths past the point of accuracy.

That's an interesting response. Thanks. I'll be looking at it again.

Mr. M · Jul 8, 2021

Old Lady said:
"You don’t obey your way into faith (the Pharisees proved that); you believe your way into obedience."
--- Bob Sorge

What do you think? I never heard of Bob Sorge until this evening.

The Lord never accused the Pharisees of being obedient or faithful! Not even a valid point.
Paul explained that the did not attain to righteousness by the Law,
because they lacked faith. [Romans 9:32]
Faith comes by hearing, [Romans 10:17], but that faith must be tested and proved genuine.
1 Peter 1:
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved
by various trials,
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes,
though it is tested by fire, may be found to *praise, honor, and glory* at the revelation of
Jesus Christ.

When faith is tested, what exactly is being put to the test? Obedience.
Romans 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for
obedience to the faith among all nations for His name.

You obey your way into faithfulness.
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands;
and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless,
but be faithful.

You obey your way into *Glory*!
1 Peter 5:4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory
that does not fade away.

BobRyan · Jul 8, 2021

Old Lady said:
"You don’t obey your way into faith (the Pharisees proved that); you believe your way into obedience."
--- Bob Sorge

What do you think? I never heard of Bob Sorge until this evening.

A person responds to the drawing of the Holy Spirit - and chooses to open that door to Christ. From then on obedience is enable as Paul says in Rom 8:4-12 because for the lost person Paul says that they do not "submit to the Law of God - neither indeed can they"

DaughterMolly · Jul 8, 2021

We shall punish disobedience when your obedience has been made complete.
I always thought that was a strange verse. But as I came to know Christ, I understood it better. God is the giver of faith and in that faith we learn to obey. That faith gets tested stretched, grows, and with it our obedience. At first I obeyed because of fear of my old life returning, of making Him.mad, of punishment. Now I obey because I know Him more, because I love to make Him smile, because I know the fruit He gives to me and to my children.
A lot of times when Jesus is speaking I have to remember it was to a Jewish nation mostly. People who grew up with the Law and Prophets. Later on in the Epistle s I see how Paul and the others handle a world that had no knowledge of the Great IAM.
Thanks for the great dialogue.

Soyeong · Jul 8, 2021

Old Lady said:
"You don’t obey your way into faith (the Pharisees proved that); you believe your way into obedience."
--- Bob Sorge

What do you think? I never heard of Bob Sorge until this evening.

It's not really one way or the other, but both at the same time. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like. Every example of someone living by faith in the Bible is also an example of someone living in obedience to God, such as with those listed in Hebrews 11.

SANTOSO · Jul 11, 2021

Old Lady said:
"You don’t obey your way into faith (the Pharisees proved that); you believe your way into obedience."
--- Bob Sorge

What do you think? I never heard of Bob Sorge until this evening.

Dear one,
I don’t know who Bob Sorge is. When I consider what he said.
I consider from what we have heard:

“Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:”
‭‭II Peter‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

dear one, we have obtained precious faith with apostles by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Dear one, we have obtained precious faith through the gospel of Jesus Christ, the righteousness of God, that is revealed from faith to faith, just as it is written that the just shall live by faith.

In regard to obedience, this is what we have heard:
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? -Romans 6:16

So dear one,
when we offer ourselves to God to obey Him as slaves, we are slaves to God to obedience, which leads to righteousness of God.

So considering what Bob Sorge said,
You don’t obey your way into faith (the Pharisees proved that); you believe your way into obedience." Dear one, he doesn’t really explain how you obtain faith like the apostles of God. Also, I would not consider those who have the righteousness of the Pharisees have obtained the faith. For we heard:

For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. -Matthew 5:20

About obedience, Bob Sorge is not clear how you come to obedience clearly and where obedience leads to, in compared to what we have heard on Romans 6:16.

So dear one, let us abide in the words that Christ has spoken, His holy apostles and prophets in the Holy Scripture, for all scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training us in righteousness.

Hazelelponi · Jul 12, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
The Lord never accused the Pharisees of being obedient or faithful! Not even a valid point.
Paul explained that the did not attain to righteousness by the Law,
because they lacked faith. [Romans 9:32]
Faith comes by hearing, [Romans 10:17], but that faith must be tested and proved genuine.
1 Peter 1:
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved
by various trials,
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes,
though it is tested by fire, may be found to *praise, honor, and glory* at the revelation of
Jesus Christ.

When faith is tested, what exactly is being put to the test? Obedience.
Romans 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for
obedience to the faith among all nations for His name.

You obey your way into faithfulness.
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands;
and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless,
but be faithful.

You obey your way into *Glory*!
1 Peter 5:4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory
that does not fade away.

Actually, he accused them of observing the minutiae of the law (Giving tithe on things like garden herbs was petty legalism) while not having a heart for the Spirit of that law. They needed more and were blind to that need, it's what made them wicked. But they were very precise about following the letter of the law.

it's what's shocking about it... you probably couldn't have found a more "religious" bunch in all of human history, yet they were so far from God most of them perished for it, eternally so.

Mr. M · Jul 12, 2021

Hazelelponi said:
Actually, he accused them of observing the minutiae of the law (Giving tithe on things like garden herbs was petty legalism) while not having a heart for the Spirit of that law. They needed more and were blind to that need, it's what made them wicked. But they were very precise about following the letter of the law.

Yes, he was mocking the "appearance" of keeping the minutiae of the Law, which is why He
called them actors(hypocrites). The weightier matters of the Law are more than "the spirit
of the Law". I agree that this tells us much about the practice of religion.
Matthew 23:14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses,
and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
Commandments against the exploitation of the weakest in society are a cornerstone of the Law.
Care for the widow, the orphan, the wayfarer/stranger in the midst is mentioned throughout,
including in the keeping of the major feasts.
You do well to mention their blindness, Jesus refused to give that a pass.
John 9:
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see
may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him,
Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say,
We see. Therefore your sin remains.

I will stand by my comment. He never accused them of being faithful or righteous.
Acknowledging the tithing of the herb garden is clearly not a compliment, on the other hand....
15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one
proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as yourselves.

As they used to say back in the 90's, "that ain't nothin' nice."

Hazelelponi · Jul 12, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Commandments against the exploitation of the weakest in society are a cornerstone of the Law.
Care for the widow, the orphan, the wayfarer/stranger in the midst is mentioned throughout,
including in the keeping of the major feasts.
You do well to mention their blindness, Jesus refused to give that a pass.

If you notice the context of "devouring widows houses" was that the wealthy gave tithes to the temple from their excess, but the poor were giving out of their poverty. It's was an example of religious leader's fleecing the poor to line the temple coffers, instead of, as you said, taking care of the widows and orphans etc.

They were pushing all to follow law to the minutiae, not just themselves, even those who didn't have anything to give. (We see this today too in some churches).

He yes, called them evil for it, but it all surrounded keeping the law, without having known the Spirit of it.

Were they faithful and obedient? to what they thought the law was or read it to be? Yes... they were. But it wasn't how God intended it to be kept, therefore they were not faithful and obedient to God - hence the strong admonition.

If He came back today He'd have very similar critiques of the religious leader's.

HeartNSoul19 · Jul 13, 2021

At its highest obedience is out of love for God and His beauty and not motivated by any secondary factor like the desire to attain salvation or the fear of not.

HappyHope · Jul 13, 2021

Old Lady said:
"You don’t obey your way into faith (the Pharisees proved that); you believe your way into obedience."
--- Bob Sorge

What do you think? I never heard of Bob Sorge until this evening.

You bet, but obedience does build faith after the initial faith seeds are planted. There is a connection. Faithful people are obedient people. I can see how it is easy to argue which precedes. Faith first then obedience out of love I reckon. Or faith first then obedience because you know it's right even when you don't feel particularly inspired but you have sense enough to trust the Lord and obey.

Rescued One · Jul 13, 2021

HappyHope said:
You bet, but obedience does build faith after the initial faith seeds are planted. There is a connection. Faithful people are obedient people. I can see how it is easy to argue which precedes. Faith first then obedience out of love I reckon. Or faith first then obedience because you know it's right even when you don't feel particularly inspired but you have sense enough to trust the Lord and obey.

Does God bring you to Christ because you pleased Him by your pre-faith goodness?

You don’t obey your way into faith

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