Salvation vs : service.

BNR32FAN · Jul 8, 2021

Sidon said:
Self saving sounds like this....

"Yes i know that Jesus is the Savior, but......let me show you over here, all that you have to do, now , to stay saved".

Self saving sounds like this....>"You can lose your salvation".

Self saving sounds like this....>"the blood of Jesus does not keep you saved".

Self saving sounds like this......."Yes Jesus is the savior,...but.........but.........but..........but"

But what? But He said that we must hear His words and act on them? But He said we must endure to the end? But He said we must remain in Him? But He said we must bear fruit? Those buts? See your ignoring more than half of what He taught. That’s like if I were to read one sentence in the driver’s handbook that says “you must be 16 years of age to attain a driver’s license” then I walk into the DMV and say I’m 16 give me my driver’s license because it says right here I can get one if I’m 16 years old. And then they’ll say yeah that’s not the only requirement listed in the book. It says right here you have to be a resident of this state, it says right here you have to take a written exam and then a driving test. And then I try to argue with them by saying but the book says I can get it if I’m 16 years old and your saying but…but…but… That’s what your doing right here. Each “but” is followed by a scripture that you ignore. Our theology is sound and stands up to all scripture without contradiction. Your’s is all over the place. One minute a born again person can’t sin and the next minute they can sin but God doesn’t charge sin against them. Then one minute we can turn away from Christ and be saved then the next minute we can’t. You don’t even know what your theology is because it keeps changing depending on who your arguing against and what scriptures they’ve used to prove you wrong. That’s why you flip flop in your theology because it’s built on sand.

BNR32FAN · Jul 8, 2021

Sidon said:
You believe that you can lose your salvation, because you dont believe that the blood of Jesus keeps you saved.
So, when you dont Trust Christ to keep you saved, = you trust in YOU.
That's legalism, and you are the largest mouthpiece for it on this forum and on my Threads.

you've told us 2x on this forum that the blood of Jesus does not keep you saved.
So, then, who is left, ??????

Legalism is the teaching that we are justified by our works. I have told you repeatedly that our works do not play any role in our salvation. What your doing is lying about me. If I’m a legalist then so are you for saying that we must believe in Christ in order to be saved. Your placing a stipulation on how to attain salvation by your own works.

Ligurian · Jul 8, 2021

Sidon said:
Thank you for the questions.

It means that Eternal Salvation is God's Blood shed as Christ on The Cross, and to give FULL CREDIT to this alone, for Eternal Redemption, is to impart the respect The Cross commands and demands.
All who will not, are "enemies of the Cross" , based on their refusing to give full credit due.... to God and Christ ALONE.... for what was accomplished by the BLood of GOD... on the Cross as : Salvation.

Jesus said...."i am THE way"...."to THE Father", and that "way' is the Cross of Christ.
All who try to give credit to any other "way"....such as commandment keeping or "enduring to the end" or any other "way" to God, are contradicting the Cross of Christ and this defines them to be : an "enemy of the Cross".

To "lift up the Cross and give glory to the Blood of God", is to NOT do that, but instead give all credit DUE the Cross, as God's only means of Redemption for the world.

John 3:16

Ligurian said:
So what you're saying is that Jesus is an "enemy of the cross"?
Commandment keeping is what Jesus says. John 14:21 Revelation 14:12
And enduring to the end is what Jesus says. Matthew 10:22 Matthew 24:13-14

Galatians 2:7-9

Are you saying that Jesus' 11 are what 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 says?
Because the 11 are definitely commandment keepers, according to...
Matthew 5:19-20, John 8:51, John 14:21, John 15:10,
1 John 2:4, Revelation 3:8-10, Revelation 14:12, etc.
and also John 17:20 people who believe the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.KJV

Sidon said:
As i have explained in 2 Threads that define the ministers of Satan.....is a person who is trying to add to the Cross their gospel of works......or they diminish the finished work of Jesus by teaching that this completed blood atonement, is not all there is to Salvation.

So, its the theologically adding to, or taking from, what Christ said, is "finished", that defines the dark lights, or as you rightly defined them, the "enemies of the Cross".

Thank you. "add to the Cross their gospel of works" is putting the cart before the horse, since the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven came before the gospel of grace to the gentiles. You seem to be saying that Paul really was talking about the Apostles of Galilee in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

So do you plan on answering my question about your "enemies of the cross" statement? Or would you just like to agree with your apostle, and admit that Galatians 2:7-9 really does teach two different gospels?

Ligurian said:
Finished: All that was necessary for
Jesus to become the Passover Lamb

John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, "It is finished": and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.

That this scripture might be fulfilled:

Exodus 12:21 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel, and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door; but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning. ... 26 And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service? 27 that ye shall say to them, "This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."

Ligurian · Jul 8, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Legalism is the teaching that we are justified by our works. I have told you repeatedly that our works do not play any role in our salvation. What your doing is lying about me. If I’m a legalist then so are you for saying that we must believe in Christ in order to be saved. Your placing a stipulation on how to attain salvation by your own works.

Faith = pistis from peitho; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

peitho = a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

If you're able to be persuaded and even obey or yield, then faith is also works.
Doesn't it all come down to free will?

So basically, for it to be outside of your control... you'd have to be a puppet. And then blame the puppeteer for whatever happens to you. Yeah... I don't get the grace gospel at all. So... do you, BNR32FAN?

setst777 · Jul 8, 2021

Sidon said:
Self saving sounds like this....

"Yes i know that Jesus is the Savior, but......let me show you over here, all that you have to do, now , to stay saved".

Self saving sounds like this....>"You can lose your salvation".

Self saving sounds like this....>"the blood of Jesus does not keep you saved".

Self saving sounds like this......."Yes Jesus is the savior,...but.........but.........but..........but"

Yes I know that Jesus is the Savior, but......let me show you over here, how Lord Jesus instructs to stay saved:

Lord Jesus does not change His Gospel message from before His death and resurrection and of what he taught AFTER his resurrection in the Book of Revelation to the Gentiles Churches.

Here is how to stay saved, according to Lord Jesus:

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 3:1-5 (WEB) “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:11-12 (WEB)
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Revelation 3:15-22 (WEB) 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot. 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of my mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing;’ and don’t know that you are the wretched one, miserable, poor, blind, and naked; 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich; and white garments, that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten. Be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with me. 21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Revelation 14:12-13 (WEB)
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” 13 I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.

Revelation 21:7 (WEB)
7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

Revelation 22:12-17 (WEB)
12 “Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” 17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” He who hears, let him say, “Come!” He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Ligurian · Jul 8, 2021

Ligurian said:
Where does "Paul teach" "born again", Sidon?
Book, Chapter and Verse, please.

Sidon said:
"All who call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved".

"To him that worked not but believeth on God who justifieth the UNGODLY, his FAITH is counted for Righteosness".

See those 2 verses? They are defining what you are to do to be born again.
If you do that, God will give you the New birth.
This is Jesus explaining "you must be born again".

In other words, Paul doesn't say the words "born again", or you'd've quoted it.

Now, Romans 10:13 and Acts 2:21 both quote from this:

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. 29 And on My servants and on my handmaids in those days will I pour out of My Spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in heaven, and upon the earth, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved: for in mount Sion and in Jerusalem shall the saved one be as the Lord has said, and they that have glad tidings preached to them, whom the Lord has called.LXX

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Two very different gospels...
Galatians 2:7-9 Galatians 1:6 Galatians 3:2 John 14:15-17

Ligurian said:
Peter wasn't under Paul's authority or gospel, according to Galatians 2:7-9.
Must've been one of those "my house, my rules" situations. Galatians 2:11
Two males in the same house, with two different gospels... that was a pecking contest. Peter never wrote his side of the story, or it never got into canon.

Because of John, we know that Peter really kept what Jesus taught him because Peter's a martyr. John 21:18-19 Because we know for a fact Jesus told the 11 specifically what to teach. Matthew 28:18-20 And so we know what the Lost Sheep believe, too. John 17:20

John 21:18-19 This spake He, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He saith unto him, Follow Me.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Sidon said:
""""""""""""""Peter wasn't under Paul's authority or gospel, according to Galatians 2:7-9."""""""""

I dont think that Peter was under Paul's authority, or vice versa.
Both were sent out as Apostles, with Jesus personally choosing Paul for the "time of the Gentiles".
It is true however, that by Acts 15, all the Apostles had understood Paul's Gospel, as THE Gospel.
If you read 2nd Peter, you'll discover that Peter stated that Paul's letters, that he had in his hand, are equal to the Jewish TORAH.
That is Peter, saying that Paul's letters, at that time, are equal to the Word OF GOD.
And this is proven to be true, as Paul's letters make up most of the New Testament.
Peter got that right.
Maybe you will also, one day, Ligurian.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know Him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Was there another gospel where the Holy Spirit is given by the works of law?

Ligurian · Jul 8, 2021

Sidon said:
Well, i do understand what you are thinking.

Paul did say that if you are trying to be righteousness, by law and commandment keeping, = you are a slave to both, and that doing this is "dung",..... and what is worse, is that the slavery,= : "the power of sin is the law".
This is the "curse of the Law".

The curse of the Law is that when you try to keep Law and Commandments to be righteous, you find that you are under a curse.
The curse is that, the law is the power of sin.

So, can you imagine the confusion of living in a place in your spirituality, of broken faith, when what is holy and true, if you try to do it to be RIGHTEOUS, it causes you to sin more.
"the LAW is THE POWER OF SIN".

Yes, i know that is logically "backwards", and......that is because these are spiritual principles, and when we try to comprehend them with our logic and analytical mind, we can't see them.
The natural mind or "the FLESH">... """""is blind to the things of God as the things of God, and cannot know them as they are Spiritually Discerned.""""

The Law and commandments are holy.
But, they can't produce holiness.
All they can do, is spotlight your unrighteousness.
See that "curse"?
Jesus died to free you from that "curse......of the law"

So, the more you try to keep them to try to be RIGHTEOUS by doing that, then the more the Law and The commandments become a curse to you, ...because all they do is spotlight your unrighteousness.
See that "curse".

"Christ came to redeem us from the Curse of the Law".

How?

He did it by keeping them all, and then dies sinless.
God then takes this actual holy life He lived, this "righteousness of Christ", and Spiritually gives it to you, as "the gift of salvation", and "the gift of Righteousness"..... and takes all your sin and this becomes Christ's judgement for your sin, in your place.

Welcome to SALVATiON.
------------------------------------------------

There is a verse that says....>"you are crucified with Christ".
See that?
That is your "old man of sin'".
Paul says that he is gone.....to "reckon the old man DEAD"., and He is, as he is "crucified with Christ".
Christ took care of this when Jesus "became SIN"... and died, as judgement for it. And when you are born again, Christ the righteousness, JOINS your spirit, and you become "the righteousness of God, in Christ"....."Justified by faith"......possessing "Eternal Life".

How to see all this? Its like this.
Who is Salvation.
Who is Righteousness?

Its JESUS and when we have HIM IN US, then we have what He IS, as us becoming a "new creation, IN Christ".

And a person says....."that is a lot to understand".
And a teacher says..... you are to BELIEVE IT, and in the believing God will show the revelation.

See, all things with God are Trust, Faith, Spirit, Love, Righteousness, and they all are GIFTS.

The Bible says at as high as Heaven is from earth is how far God's WAYS are above our ability to comprehend them.
God said that Its by the "foolishness of Preaching", that He saves ...

And why is this called "foolishness"?.....Its because that is what FAITH sounds like when you try to understand it with the natural or carnal mind.

God's Spiritually is so foreign to us, that it seems odd., foolish.

Think about this.....
When you want God to use you, what are you to do?
You are to be more humble, and be found on your KNEES, in humility, most of all.

What does the world say?
The world says..>"be loud, be proud, be the biggest, the smartest, the richest....

See that?
God's Spirituality is the opposite of how we think it should be......and that is why believers have to develop a renewed mind, a NEW UNDERSTANDING, regarding God's Spirituality, and how this has nothing to do with how we would think it should be.

A believer who is not understanding Salvation, is trying to perform the commandments and burn themselves out with striving against sin, and putting in all the self effort.
All this does is FAIL..... While God sits there and says....>"""""ive already down all the heavy lifting for you, on the CROSS".
Now come and exit in this GRACE, and i will be your Power, and you will be my vessel.
God says....Find your REST in my GRACE and let me do the work through you. """"

One of these days I might find the time to look for where you posted this stuff the first time.

BNR32FAN · Jul 8, 2021

Ligurian said:
Faith = pistis from peitho; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

peitho = a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

If you're able to be persuaded and even obey or yield, then faith is also works.
Doesn't it all come down to free will?

So basically, for it to be outside of your control... you'd have to be a puppet. And then blame the puppeteer for whatever happens to you. Yeah... I don't get the grace gospel at all. So... do you, BNR32FAN?

That’s not how I would define the grace gospel. I believe God will grant His grace to everyone. The thing I haven’t figured out is if God has already granted it to everyone or if He grants it to each individual at different times. Either way by God’s grace we are enabled to believe the gospel if we choose to. The choice is our’s whether we will humble ourselves to God or if we will choose to reject Him in defiance of His commandments. In Sidon’s theology once we’ve been born again that choice has been erased. But I believe that we have that choice from the moment we hear the gospel until the day we die. God has not removed our free will to rebel against Him or even to reject Him all together once we have come to Christ. For Him to do so would undermine the entire reason we are here in this world which was created to cultivate and separate those who would choose to love Him from those who would choose to reject Him. That’s the whole reason we are here in the first place. Love without free will cannot be genuine and is of no true value. So for God to remove our free will to reject Him would make this world completely pointless. If He were going to do that He could’ve just created us in heaven as obedient preprogrammed beings with no genuine affection towards anything or anyone. But I believe God didn’t want a bunch of remote controlled toys wandering aimlessly around heaven pretending to love Him when all the while it is really God at the controls orchestrating every move we make and every sign of affection that we show. I can program my computer to say anything I want it to but none of it will touch my heart the way a person can when they show their affection for me. I believe our salvation lies in our love for God and faith in Him. Love and faith together will not result in complete failure to obey or to do what pleases Him. That’s why I believe that our works are not actually taken into consideration for our salvation it’s the motivation behind the works that is taken into consideration. That motivation being our love for God and our faith in Him.

BNR32FAN · Jul 8, 2021

Ligurian said:
I can't get my head around most of Paul's sayings. In many cases, he seems to contradict himself. He acts like he's a slave to sin, but calls the law bondage. He says Hagar represents the law, and Sarah is free.

But Sarah was under the law. And Jesus says keeping the law frees us from sin, just like James also says... which I can wrap my head around and actually do.

Two very different gospels Galatians 2:7-9, Romans 7:24, John 12:50.

He does seem a bit ambiguous at times. Probably due to the language and difference in the way people talked in that time period. We also have to consider that it is likely that a lot of what he writes to these people could be an inside reference to things he has said to them in the past. Things that we wouldn’t completely know about because they had received prior information about them. That’s why I think the earliest church writings can be helpful in interpreting his epistles because these men were able to follow the apostles for years and gather more knowledge than we have from the scriptures.

GOD Shines Forth! · Jul 8, 2021

Ligurian said:
n other words, Paul doesn't say the words "born again", or you'd've quoted it.

"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you."--Galatians 4

Don't know if this passes muster but it came to me.

setst777 · Jul 8, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
That’s not how I would define the grace gospel. I believe God will grant His grace to everyone. The thing I haven’t figured out is if God has already granted it to everyone or if He grants it to each individual at different times. Either way by God’s grace we are enabled to believe the gospel if we choose to. The choice is our’s whether we will humble ourselves to God or if we will choose to reject Him in defiance of His commandments. In Sidon’s theology once we’ve been born again that choice has been erased. But I believe that we have that choice from the moment we hear the gospel until the day we die. God has not removed our free will to rebel against Him or even to reject Him all together once we have come to Christ. For Him to do so would undermine the entire reason we are here in this world which was created to cultivate and separate those who would choose to love Him from those who would choose to reject Him. That’s the whole reason we are here in the first place. Love without free will cannot be genuine and is of no true value. So for God to remove our free will to reject Him would make this world completely pointless. If He were going to do that He could’ve just created us in heaven as obedient preprogrammed beings with no genuine affection towards anything or anyone. But I believe God didn’t want a bunch of remote controlled toys wandering aimlessly around heaven pretending to love Him when all the while it is really God at the controls orchestrating every move we make and every sign of affection that we show. I can program my computer to say anything I want it to but none of it will touch my heart the way a person can when they show their affection for me. I believe our salvation lies in our love for God and faith in Him. Love and faith together will not result in complete failure to obey or to do what pleases Him. That’s why I believe that our works are not actually taken into consideration for our salvation it’s the motivation behind the works that is taken into consideration. That motivation being our love for God and our faith in Him.

Very true.

To remain saved, we must remain faithful to Lord Jesus demonstrated by following Him daily, observing all He commands of us.

John 15:9-10 (WEB)
9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain (abide) in my love.
10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain (abide) in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain (abide) in his love.

Remaining faithful to Lord Jesus is what a true Christian is motivated to do, because they truly believe in, and love , Lord Jesus. So, the authenticity of our faith is continually being refined and tested by the life we lead from the day we first believe, and until the end of our lives..

1 Peter 1:6-7 (NIV) 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Lord Jesus and the Apostolic Writers make crystal clear that each of us is responsible for how we lived out our faith in Lord Jesus to remain in a saving relationship with Him.

We will be judged by our works before Him. Our love for Lord Jesus is demonstrated by our deeds, how we conduct our lives as we Journey through this world.

1 Peter 1:14-17 (NIV) 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” [Lev. 11:44, 45; 19:2] 17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Blessings

GOD Shines Forth! · Jul 8, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
That’s why I think the earliest church writings can be helpful in interpreting his epistles because these men were able to follow the apostles for years and gather more knowledge than we have from the scriptures.

Nyet. They are the worst to interpret him. Just let Paul be Paul. You either get him or you don't. It's a Gentile thing.

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:"--Colossians 1

setst777 · Jul 8, 2021

GOD Shines Forth! said:
"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you."--Galatians 4

Don't know if this passes muster but it came to me.

"Birth" is referring to Paul, not the Christians he is writing to.

However, in the Passage you quoted, notice that Paul offers no guarantees for the Galatians' salvation.

setst777 · Jul 8, 2021

GOD Shines Forth! said:
Nyet. They are the worst to interpret him. Just let Paul be Paul. You either get him or you don't. It's a Gentile thing.

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:"--Colossians 1

The early Christians, the closer you get to the 1st century, the more likely they represent the culture (mindset) of the Church that was founded by the Lord Jesus and the Apostles.

GOD Shines Forth! · Jul 8, 2021

setst777 said:
The early Christians, the closer you get to the 1st century, the more likely they represent the culture (mindset) of the Church that was founded by the Lord Jesus and the Apostles.

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."--Acts 20

setst777 · Jul 8, 2021

GOD Shines Forth! said:
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."--Acts 20

That is true. And the early Church fathers fought valiantly to uphold and defend the faith once for all entrusted to the Saints.

However, to say that the early church Christians turned apostate, and evil triumphed over the early church is totally against God's Sovereign will for His Word and His Church.

GOD Shines Forth! · Jul 8, 2021

setst777 said:
"Birth" is referring to Paul, not the Christians he is writing to.

"until Christ be formed in you" is referring to them.

setst777 said:
However, in the Passage you quoted, notice that Paul offers no guarantees for the Galatians' salvation.

That you cherish pointing that out--not that I agree with you--I find very disturbing.

GOD Shines Forth! · Jul 8, 2021

setst777 said:
However, to say that the early church Christians turned apostate, and evil triumphed over the early church is totally against God's Sovereign will for His Word and His Church.

Huh? Did you read Paul's statement? Don't try to put that on me.

setst777 · Jul 8, 2021

GOD Shines Forth! said:
"until Christ be formed in you" is referring to them.

That you cherish pointing that out--not that I agree with you--I find very disturbing.

The "birth" is referring to Paul.

"until Christ be formed in you" is referring to the Galatians' being conformed to Paul's presentation of Lord Jesus by the Gospel he preached to them.

setst777 · Jul 9, 2021

GOD Shines Forth! said:
Huh? Did you read Paul's statement? Don't try to put that on me.

I did read Paul's statement. He doesn't say that early church will turn apostate, but rather, he warned the Church that savage wolves would enter, and so to beware. History shows that the Early Church upheld the faith against these wolves who came in many forms of corrupt doctrine. Even today we see this happening.

Paul never taught that the early Church would turn apostate. That is only the believe of those who believe God is impotent to keep His Church that He loves.

Salvation vs : service.

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