Is being a Christian and liking Guns mutually exclusive?

98cwitr · Apr 28, 2021

marineimaging said:
I once said that I like guns and think of them as a beautiful technical art. I was nearly kicked off of FB and the hate mail was on one reason I left FB. It seems that some people have the impression that if you say that you are a Christian and like guns then you are a hypocrite. Not so. I am also a former machinist and fabricator, a marketing management professional, a 3D CAD artist, and I have built thousands of fixtures for manufacturing engineering of products almost everybody has seen in some form. I do not mean that all guns are beautiful, technical, nor an art. However, I do appreciate those which are made in high or moderate volume manufacturing and have the look and feel of fine craftsmanship. I really appreciate it when I see an older a gun with more tight fitting the parts and which as been around for many years and still shoots accurately and reliably. What about you? Do you think that being a Christian and like guns makes you (me) a hypocrite?

The theological debate of whether or not we have a God-given right to self-defense is the crux of the issue. If we do have such a right (to protect life) then guns are fine, if we do not have such a right (and I see a biblical case for either argument), then no weapon wielded with the intent of taking life is okay. We might have a Constitutional right, but the Founders explicitly asserted that these rights are given to us by God and not man, so thus inalienable.

I don't see anyone having that debate from a theological perspective; but it needs to happen.

ss51 · Apr 28, 2021

Jesus said, "and then in that day you will need a sword".
22 Important Bible Verses About Self Defense (Shocking Read)

98cwitr · Apr 28, 2021

ss51 said:
Jesus said, "and then in that day you will need a sword".
22 Important Bible Verses About Self Defense (Shocking Read)

And he said that so they would be numbered with the transgressors...says quite plainly why in verse 37. Please, don't fall for Scripture taken out of context:

Luke 22

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors"; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That’s enough!” he replied.

This is a very poor argument for the biblical self-defense case, just look what happens when Peter goes to use that sword a few verses later:

49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

IMO, this provides a much better argument, but is rooted in the Old Testament: Ask the Rabbi: The right to self-defense

Exodus 22:2 also is a solid Biblical argument, but has some contingencies.

Jesus commanded us that if a thief comes and wants something, we simply give it to them: Luke 6:29-30

I trust this is a hard teaching...it is for me.

RageOfAngels · May 20, 2021

It's interesting reading all the different opinions on gun control. I've never wanted to own a gun at all, not even for a minute. I think a lot of it is culture. In the UK it's never really been an issue, and for years I couldn't really understand why anyone in the US would want to own a gun. Upon doing some research I can now understand why many folks do want guns (and for different reasons too). Also, if it is someone's right to have a gun, then I don't think it is good to take that right away. It is better to educate, and prosecute those who break the law, rather than take something away from law abiding citizens. Also, it seems that it's more the left (and democrats that want to remove guns), and some of the other things they promote I would run a mile from, so I'd favour the republican review.

ckell19 · May 23, 2021

Southernscotty said:
Well everyone knows my stance. I am a southern boy raised with guns in every corner. I love them, They are a tool just like my fishing pole. I do not wanna harm no one and the thought has never entered my mind. If it came down to it YES I would defend my family and my congregation. Simply put. If that makes me wrong, Or a bad pastor? Then attend a different church.

It is funny cause many people don't believe in having a firearm in church however if a mass murderer walked through the door the first people they're gonna call is the people with guns, aka the police.

East of Eden · May 27, 2021

marineimaging said:
Also, the wife and I were carrying a .380 each in church but we always sit near the front. I began to think that if anybody comes in they are coming in behind me and the main doors are about 50 yards away. Realizing a .380 with 3.4" barrel would never shoot accurately that far I decided to carry my .40 PT-101-P with a 5" barrel because I know it will shoot accurately enough that distance if I needed to. The problem of drooping pants was settled with a pair of strong suspenders under my shirt. Meanwhile, the wife is carrying a Ruger LCR in .38. If anything happens she is going down to the floor and protecting those around her from anybody getting within her comfort zone. If I were you I think I would have a new podium made with a cubby and secret latch for a MMSR with spare mags. I can design one that would look really nice. Hay, maybe I just come up with a new business idea.

Try a Glock 42, it is a very shootable and accurate .380. Remember the .380 is about as powerful as a .38 Special, which cops carried for decades.

East of Eden · May 27, 2021

RageOfAngels said:
It's interesting reading all the different opinions on gun control. I've never wanted to own a gun at all, not even for a minute. I think a lot of it is culture. In the UK it's never really been an issue, and for years I couldn't really understand why anyone in the US would want to own a gun. Upon doing some research I can now understand why many folks do want guns (and for different reasons too). Also, if it is someone's right to have a gun, then I don't think it is good to take that right away. It is better to educate, and prosecute those who break the law, rather than take something away from law abiding citizens. Also, it seems that it's more the left (and democrats that want to remove guns), and some of the other things they promote I would run a mile from, so I'd favour the republican review.

With the left, gun control isn't about crime, it's about disarming the population for political reasons. The Founders were clear, the 2A isn't about duck hunting, it is protection against tyrannical politicians. We need the 2A now more than ever. The more law abiding citizens owning guns the better.

The biggest factor in much of our crime is broken families. How many inner city gang members have an intact, two parent home?

East of Eden · May 27, 2021

marineimaging said:
When I was last in Scotland I had to endure a lot of chiding and ridiculing when I fell into the trap of commenting about owning guns and hunting at a party hosted by the homeowner where I was staying at the time. I mean, they were not just ignorant. I have been around some salty people working around the docks and machine and fab shops all over the US but these people were vehemently brutal. I have seen ____________(fill in the blank) in jail treated with more respect. The same thing in Rotterdam although it wasn't as widespread.

Nothing logical about it, is there? If people feel that way, don't own a gun, but get your hands off my gun rights.

The NRA is my favorite civil rights organization.

East of Eden · May 27, 2021

NothingIsImpossible said:
About twelve men in our church have carry-conceal permits and carry their pistols to church every week. I mean most members don't know of course since some wold be freaked out by it.

Good for them, you don't lose your 2A rights when you enter a church.

East of Eden · May 27, 2021

SJP51 said:
"Turn the other cheek" did not mean let a thug kill you, break into your home, or threaten your family. So, yes, firearms are useful tools to the law abding Christian. I like to hunt, shoot, and practice self defense. I conceal and open carry where OK by law. I know many many other Christians that do the same.

Turn the other cheek mainly refers to personal insults. Protecting your family and innocent bystanders is simply working out the Golden Rule, if a criminal threatens me I want them stopped, so would anyone else. An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil isn't stopped by fleeing. Had the Good Samaritan come across the attack as it was happening, he would have tried to stop it.

If a private citizen can't stop a crime, how is it OK for the police or military to do so?

Remember Jesus commended a Roman Centurian for his faith, which was greater than any found in Israel. He didn't reprimand him and tell him to get a new occupation. The Bible says those in authority over us are put there to maintain order, which often can only be done by lethal force.

East of Eden · May 27, 2021

FenderTL5 said:
That is not even remotely true. In fact that is the exact opposite of truth.

The Bill of Rights, that includes the 2nd Amendment, was written after the war had ended. Washington has dismissed the Continental Army back to their homes. There was no standing army. None, nada.
Many in the congress wanted to keep it that way. The 2nd Amendment provided for a citizen militia to protect the the newly formed government. The language is right there in the Amendment:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

And yes "well regulated" meant trained and organized.

Nonsense, why would there need to be an amendment for the government to maintain forces for defense and order? The militia was defined as all able bodied males. Here are a number of quotes from the Founders which debunk your opinion:

Gun Quotations of the Founding Fathers | Buckeye Firearms Association

East of Eden · May 27, 2021

MarkRohfrietsch said:
You can put food on your table with one.

For sure, our families diet mainly consists of wild elk, hogs, antelope and oryx, personally killed by moi. It is organic and free range food, much better than the store bought factory food.

98cwitr · Jun 16, 2021

RageOfAngels said:
It's interesting reading all the different opinions on gun control. I've never wanted to own a gun at all, not even for a minute. I think a lot of it is culture. In the UK it's never really been an issue, and for years I couldn't really understand why anyone in the US would want to own a gun. Upon doing some research I can now understand why many folks do want guns (and for different reasons too). Also, if it is someone's right to have a gun, then I don't think it is good to take that right away. It is better to educate, and prosecute those who break the law, rather than take something away from law abiding citizens. Also, it seems that it's more the left (and democrats that want to remove guns), and some of the other things they promote I would run a mile from, so I'd favour the republican review.

If you dig into the true nature of why it's a right enumerated by the founding fathers, you'll see that regardless of where you live (in your case, the UK) you have that same right as any American to self-defense and the tools necessary to do so expeditiously. This is where our minds forget: We believe that our rights are not granted to us by men, nor governments, but by God. IOW, our rights are supposed to be protected by men, not granted by them.

LockeeDeck · Jun 16, 2021

marineimaging said:
I once said that I like guns and think of them as a beautiful technical art. I was nearly kicked off of FB and the hate mail was on one reason I left FB. It seems that some people have the impression that if you say that you are a Christian and like guns then you are a hypocrite. Not so. I am also a former machinist and fabricator, a marketing management professional, a 3D CAD artist, and I have built thousands of fixtures for manufacturing engineering of products almost everybody has seen in some form. I do not mean that all guns are beautiful, technical, nor an art. However, I do appreciate those which are made in high or moderate volume manufacturing and have the look and feel of fine craftsmanship. I really appreciate it when I see an older a gun with more tight fitting the parts and which as been around for many years and still shoots accurately and reliably. What about you? Do you think that being a Christian and like guns makes you (me) a hypocrite?

As a non-christian the issue seems to be the culture around guns rather than guns themselves. If someone is taking selfies with their plate carrier and their gun they aren't showing off the artistic value of the gun they are declaring their love of the idea of violence and their willingness to commit violence. This runs counter to the teachings of Jesus.

It would be difficult to separate the appreciation for the craftsmanship of firearms from the culture surrounding firearms so it's likely you got lumped in with that culture.

98cwitr · Jun 16, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
As a non-christian the issue seems to be the culture around guns rather than guns themselves. If someone is taking selfies with their plate carrier and their gun they aren't showing off the artistic value of the gun they are declaring their love of the idea of violence and their willingness to commit violence. This runs counter to the teachings of Jesus.

It would be difficult to separate the appreciation for the craftsmanship of firearms from the culture surrounding firearms so it's likely you got lumped in with that culture.

Would you equate self-defense with "violence" in the context which you use the word "violence?"

LockeeDeck · Jun 16, 2021

98cwitr said:
Would you equate self-defense with "violence" in the context which you use the word "violence?"

Self defense is different from glorifying the idea of shooting someone in "self defense".

98cwitr · Jun 16, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
Self defense is different from glorifying the idea of shooting someone in "self defense".

A selfie with protective gear on is "glorification?"

LockeeDeck · Jun 16, 2021

98cwitr said:
A selfie with protective gear on is "glorification?"

It can be and usually is. It's announcing that you have the capability to kill without being killed.
A gun is a tool but you don't see people taking selfies with their work aprons and drills.

Justin-H.S. · Jul 8, 2021

I took a selfie while wearing my jiu-jitsu uniform, once...

Ahhh.. the white belt days...

MarkRohfrietsch · Jul 8, 2021

Justin-H.S. said:
I took a selfie while wearing my jiu-jitsu uniform, once...

Ahhh.. the white belt days...

Or just having some giggles firing a Black Powder Cap-and-Ball... Everyone laughs and grins when I pull this old girl out!! Surprisingly accurate too!!

Is being a Christian and liking Guns mutually exclusive?

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