Quote on racism: Agree/Disagree and why?

essentialsaltes · Jul 7, 2021

atpollard said:
Increased payments to predominantly urban minority individuals paid from the taxes of predominantly suburban non-POC workers IS reparations.

Maybe (maybe) that would be, but that's not what the progressive tax rate does. It does not distinguish between minorities and non-minorities. Nor does it distinguish between urban or suburban. It distinguishes based on AGI.

Ken-1122 · Jul 7, 2021

Occams Barber said:
War reparations have been a feature of war for centuries. They are not specific to WW2 or the US.

They are a recognition of the principle of the corporate responsibility of nation states.

If the past actions of a mining company resulted in the illegal pollution of your local waterways you would expect that company to contribute to the cost of fixing the problem. The directors may have changed and the stockholders may be a different group to when the pollution occurred. In spite of this you would still see the company as having a corporate responsibility to do what it could to fix the problem.

A nation is also a corporate entity with a responsibility for it's actions whether they involve unjustified war or the intentional mistreatment of minorities through action or inaction. It doesn't matter if you or your parents came from another place. As a citizen of the country, you are effectively a shareholder and you share in the corporate responsibility. This doesn't necessarily mean you share blame.

The measure of how far back this corporate responsibility should extend will depend on whether this past mistreatment still has a significant effect on the current population of the disadvantaged group.

As a matter of principle the state must accept responsibility for its own actions.

OB

So who were these Germans and Japanese the USA forced to pay reparations? You aren't suggesting all Germans and Japanese were forced to pay reparations are you? How were they forced to pay?

Ken-1122 · Jul 7, 2021

iluvatar5150 said:
Then you’d be wrong. I’m 40 and I can draw direct links between the wealth I and my wife possess today to things our grandparents did 70-80 years ago. Our present wealth has built on the wealth of at least the two preceding generations (probably 3, though I’m less familiar with them)

Most millionaires (approx 80%) are first generation rich. The idea of old money, generations passing their wealth down to their children are pretty much rare when compared to those who made it on their own. If your family's wealth is a result of inherited wealth, that is a bit of a rarity today
https://www.cato.org/commentary/real-1-percent#

Occams Barber · Jul 7, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
So who were these Germans and Japanese the USA forced to pay reparations? You aren't suggesting all Germans and Japanese were forced to pay reparations are you? How were they forced to pay?

In the same way any nation repays a loan. This is basic stuff I shouldn't need to explain to you.

The repayment is part of the national budget. Individuals do not pay separately however they pay through things like increased taxes or reduced services since national wealth is decreased. The payment is made by the state but since the state's money comes mostly from its citizens and is normally used for the benefit of its citizens, they are effectively paying.

OB

Ken-1122 · Jul 7, 2021

A_Thinker said:
Competent economists would dispel you of that notion ...

Perhaps I would dispel your competent economists of their notion.

Ken-1122 · Jul 7, 2021

Occams Barber said:
In the same way any nation repays a loan. This is basic stuff I shouldn't need to explain to you.

The repayment is part of the national budget. Individuals do not pay separately however they pay through things like increased taxes or reduced services since national wealth is decreased. The payment is made by the state but since the state's money comes mostly from its citizens and is normally used for the benefit of its citizens, they are effectively paying.

OB

That’s the nation paying reparations; that’s not what I’m talking about. The person I was discussing with before you joined the conversation claimed the United States targeted entire ethnic groups. To target all Germans is different than targeting Germany. Then you provided a link that claimed approx 4,000,000 German POW’s and civilians were used as forced labor in Europe, Canada, and the United States years after the war was over. That’s different than increased taxes to pay national debt.

RDKirk · Jul 7, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Most millionaires (approx 80%) are first generation rich. The idea of old money, generations passing their wealth down to their children are pretty much rare when compared to those who made it on their own. If your family's wealth is a result of inherited wealth, that is a bit of a rarity today
https://www.cato.org/commentary/real-1-percent#

Not talking about millionaires. Talking about Uncle Frank, who was just well off enough to lend his nephew a few thousand dollars to get a small business going. Or the equity of the house that Joe's father bought with his VA loan in 1948 and had paid off by 1968, then passed to Joe.

RDKirk · Jul 7, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
That’s the nation paying reparations; that’s not what I’m talking about. The person I was discussing with before you joined the conversation claimed the United States targeted entire ethnic groups. To target all Germans is different than targeting Germany. Then you provided a link that claimed approx 4,000,000 German POW’s and civilians were used as forced labor in Europe, Canada, and the United States years after the war was over. That’s different than increased taxes to pay national debt.

By the end of WWII, Germany was almost wholly ethnic Germans and Japan was almost wholly ethnic Japanese. That was one of the things they made happen up to and through the war.

Occams Barber · Jul 7, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
That’s the nation paying reparations; that’s not what I’m talking about. The person I was discussing with before you joined the conversation claimed the United States targeted entire ethnic groups. To target all Germans is different than targeting Germany. Then you provided a link that claimed approx 4,000,000 German POW’s and civilians were used as forced labor in Europe, Canada, and the United States years after the war was over. That’s different than increased taxes to pay national debt.

This is like eating soup with a fork.

War reparations or company pollution or a state maltreating a minority are all examples where corporate/state responsibility is an issue. Specifically how war reparations were paid is immaterial to the discussion.

If we cut to the chase and look directly at African Americans, there is an argument that the state has in the past through its actions and inactions been the cause of serious disadvantage, discrimination and maltreatment of the African American population. This mistreatment has existed in the past with carryover effects and continues, to a lesser extent, to exist in the present.

This mistreatment has been mainly carried out by and for the benefit of the majority white population with the support of the state. This mistreatment occurred both before and after abolition. Not all white people were or are involved in this discrimination however they do, via the state, carry a collective responsibility for tacit acceptance.

Since it is impossible to single out whiteness as a sensible criteria for who is responsible for reparations the obvious course is for the state to accept responsibility for its own action and for the collective actions of its own citizens.

OB

Oompa Loompa · Jul 7, 2021

A_Thinker said:
What about stealing the land of an indigenous race ?

What about enslaving those of another race ?

What about denying full citizenship to members of a particular race ?

Who did any of those things?

rturner76 · Jul 8, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
I think it would be a mistake to look at the fact that blacks own 1/10th the wealth of white Americans and assume this is due to slavery, while totally ignoring the fact that blacks on average wear more expensive clothes than whites, more jewelry, spend more on their hair, more likely to drive cars with expensive aftermarket parts (expensive stereo, wheels, etc) far more likely to be run by single parent (one income vs 2 income household), less likely to invest whatever extra money they do have and countless other things that have nothing to do with slavery, but results in less wealth.

Right, white people got nothing to do with it. Oh wait don't they run stuff in this country? Oh, wait black people do.

rturner76 · Jul 8, 2021

Oompa Loompa said:
Who did any of those things?

White people

Pommer · Jul 8, 2021

essentialsaltes said:
A progressive tax code is not reparations.

I dunno, no taxes, (federal, state, local including excise and fuel taxes), for, oh, say 100 years? It would be like their fellow Americans are carrying them (for a change), and getting ahead by being able to save the 35% that they’ve been paying to live here. America owes them, it’s time to pay.

iluvatar5150 · Jul 8, 2021

Aldebaran said:
I notice how you didn't address the fact that he is indeed paying reparations after it was claimed he wasn't. Now you seem more interested in getting him to explain why he shouldn't have to keep paying them for the rest of his life.

I didn’t address it because I don’t agree with the claim but didn’t care to argue that point. My point was that even if taxes do count as reparations, how long should they need to fix a problem that was centuries in the making. @Ken-1122 didn’t answer. You care to take a stab at it?

Ken-1122 said:
Most millionaires (approx 80%) are first generation rich. The idea of old money, generations passing their wealth down to their children are pretty much rare when compared to those who made it on their own. If your family's wealth is a result of inherited wealth, that is a bit of a rarity today
https://www.cato.org/commentary/real-1-percent#

Basically this:

RDKirk said:
Not talking about millionaires. Talking about Uncle Frank, who was just well off enough to lend his nephew a few thousand dollars to get a small business going. Or the equity of the house that Joe's father bought with his VA loan in 1948 and had paid off by 1968, then passed to Joe.

Some of the grandparents in question are still alive. None on my side were anywhere close to being rich though some of my wife’s were solidly upper middle class. What I’m referring to are job choices (and opportunities) that covered college tuition for all of our parents and then us; private primary & secondary school tuition for my dad and expensive-neighborhood public schools for my wife and her parents; vacation properties to access; backstops during periods of hardship; familial stability (which correlates to affluence). I could go on, but there are a lot of opportunities built into that chain of events that weren’t available to a lot of blacks at the time.

A_Thinker · Jul 8, 2021

Aldebaran said:
What good would that do? We were alerting you guys all of last year as rioting was actually happening all over the country, and all we heard back was a bunch of excuses.

Was there something I was supposed to do about that ?

A_Thinker · Jul 8, 2021

atpollard said:
I am paying reparations in the form of income transfer based on more than half a century of failed government efforts to “fix” the problem … and the tax percentage for income transfer continues to rise. The ‘opinions’ claimed that I should be SUPPORTING the effort to demand that I pay more. Electing Democrats has already assured that I WILL pay more.

Likely, we all will be paying more. But those payments will be based upon wealth, rather than race.

In the US, it's unfortunate that some believe in the strong being a help to the weak. I don't know where we came up with that ...

Romans 15

1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.

Luke 10

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

A_Thinker · Jul 8, 2021

atpollard said:
Increased payments to predominantly urban minority individuals paid from the taxes of predominantly suburban non-POC workers IS reparations.

Certainly you are aware that most governmental wealth transfer goes to whites ?
2018 Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (i.e. Food Stamp) percentages follow ...

From ... Trump told not everyone on welfare is black: "Really? Then what are they?" he responded: Report

"Just over 40 percent of SNAP recipients are white. Another 25.7 percent are black, 10.3 percent are Hispanic, 2.1 percent are Asian and 1.2 percent are Native American, according to a 2015 Department of Agriculture report."

From ... 9 Surprising Facts About Welfare Recipients

"Given the population of the United States in 2012 and the annual rate of participation by race reported by the U.S. Census Bureau in 2015, about 35 million white people participated in one of the major government assistance programs that year. That's about 11 million more than the 24 million Latinos who participated and considerably more than the 20 million Black people who received government aid."

A_Thinker · Jul 8, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Most millionaires (approx 80%) are first generation rich. The idea of old money, generations passing their wealth down to their children are pretty much rare when compared to those who made it on their own. If your family's wealth is a result of inherited wealth, that is a bit of a rarity today
https://www.cato.org/commentary/real-1-percent#

20% is rare ???

Also ... those 20% hold 77% of the nation's wealth.

From ... Six facts about wealth in the United States

"The share of wealth in the economy is increasingly owned by families in the top of the income distribution. The top 20 percent held 77 percent of total household wealth in 2016, more than triple what the middle class held, defined as the middle 60 percent of the usual income distribution."

KCfromNC · Jul 8, 2021

A_Thinker said:
Was there something I was supposed to do about that ?

Looks like you're being accused of a crime for being a perceived member of a group - you know, the most racist thing possible, per the quote in the OP.

Which to me shows that the people this quote is targeted at don't really believe it, unless it lines up with the particular situation it was manufactured to rationalize away.

A_Thinker · Jul 8, 2021

Aldebaran said:
Whatabout, whatabout, whatabout....

What about addressing the OP's statement and question instead of diverting attention to other issues?

Get over yourself.

The OP presented a statement of comparison ... "There's nothing more racist than targeting an entire ethnic group with a collective crime regardless of the innocence or guilt of its individuals."

... then asked for the statement to be addressed in terms of agreement or disagreement.

One viable way of doing what the OP asks ... is to present counter examples to challenge the comparison.

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