20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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sovereigngrace

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I prefer not to help James explain what he really meant, but I can understand why you might want to do that.

He stated that faith alone without works, being dead, cannot justify anyone, and that was exactly what he meant.

You can try all you want to invent an alternative salvation to the one that has worked from the beginning, but it is destined to fail. The Catholic Church has attempted that for years and it is folly. That is why the Reformation happened. Salvation has never been by works. To think so is to twist the consistent scriptural reality that man is saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Before I give you the answer for that, would you like to address the little flock question that I posed to you in 20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

If you claim that you are in the little flock in Luke 12:32, why do you not obey Jesus command to you in vs 33 to sell all you have?

What does Luke 12:33 means to you? Is that only a suggestion to you, or do you prefer to spiritualize that command like what you did for the verses about cutting body parts, that we discussed initially?

That is ridiculous. God can ask whatever He wants of any individual, group, entity or generation. That does not constitute an alternative salvation. That is simply God being God. Dispies do that to support their false teaching.
 
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Guojing

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That is ridiculous. God can ask whatever He wants of any individual, group, entity or generation. That does not constitute an alternative salvation. That is simply God being God. Dispies do that to support their false teaching.

So do you obey what Jesus commanded the little flock in Luke 12:33?
 
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Guojing

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Are you serious?

The Body of Christ was a mystery first revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:9)

Romans 16:7 indicated that there were others in Christ before Paul.

So it follows that being in the Body of Christ is not necessary to be in Christ.
 
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Guojing

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You can try all you want to invent an alternative salvation to the one that has worked from the beginning, but it is destined to fail. The Catholic Church has attempted that for years and it is folly. That is why the Reformation happened. Salvation has never been by works. To think so is to twist the consistent scriptural reality that man is saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

I am not inventing any alternative way of salvation. I am saying James meant what he said and said what he meant.
 
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Guojing

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Doesn't come across as very brilliant sounding to me. Comes across as twisting words to mean something they don't mean. "works' is not being used in that sense.

Take Noah for instance. God informed him that a flood was coming and that he needed to prepare an ark, which he did. The building of the ark symbolizing works. What would have happened had Noah decided he did not want to finish the ark before the floods came, that he refused to finish it? Should one then assume faith alone would have saved him, thus he wouldn't have drowned with the rest even if he never completed the ark, but not because God didn't give him plenty of time to do so, but because he simply refused to keep building it until it got built?


And what does James 2 say again?


James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If building the ark symbolizes works in Noah's case, but that he refused to finish it, then relied on faith alone, he too would have literally been dead once the floods arrived. Exactly what James 2:20 indicates---faith without works is dead.

Yes, I am glad I found another who also don't believe that James is such a bad writer that he needs us to help him explain what he really meant.

He is known as James the Just, and he meant exactly what he is saying to the 12 tribes of Israel scattered abroad, that faith without works cannot justify anyone.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I am not inventing any alternative way of salvation. I am saying James meant what he said and said what he meant.

Yes you are. James indeed meant what he said and said what he meant, but not according to your understanding, what you have argued or mean. Quite the opposite.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Body of Christ was a mystery first revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:9)

Romans 16:7 indicated that there were others in Christ before Paul.

So it follows that being in the Body of Christ is not necessary to be in Christ.

The NT places all mankind either "in Adam" or "in Christ." Your attempt to create a 3rd group of people and an alternative salvation is very mistaken.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Body of Christ was a mystery first revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:9)

Romans 16:7 indicated that there were others in Christ before Paul.

So it follows that being in the Body of Christ is not necessary to be in Christ.

Every man since Adam is born with original sin and therefore stands completely guilty before a righteous God. In the first Adam (the first nature) all are sinners and therefore destined to lost eternity. The Bible says, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Romans 5:12).

Man – in all generations – inherited Adam’s awful sinful nature, which ultimately separates man from a holy God. So we can see, man, irrespective of race, birthplace or birth date, shares the same pitiful deformity.

Romans 5:15 says, "For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The awful “condemnation” that afflicts every man since the fall through inherited sin is completely removed “in Christ” through the new birth experience. Through salvation the penitent is fully justified and “made righteous” in the eyes of God. He is taken instantly from spiritual death into spiritual life by being raised from a horrible spiritual grave.

The Bible tells us: in Adam all die (1 Corinthians 15:22) – that is both physically and spiritually – whereas in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22). In the first Adam we are destined to eternal death, whereas in Christ (the second or last Adam) we are assured eternal life.

Man’s first birth was not adequate enough to save him. Jesus emphasizes: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.” Man needed a second birth. He needed divine intervention in order to help him see things properly and do things right. His spirit had to be made alive.

You are not getting it! Romans 5:18-19 says, as by the offence of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Scripture places men in one of two distinct groups since the beginning – those in Adam and those in Christ. Those in Adam simply experience one birth in life and never come to know the joy of the second spiritual birth. They are filled with themselves and their own selfish desires and thoughts. This company is made up of Jew and Gentile alike throughout time. The second group are those “in Christ,” referring to the redeemed throughout time (before and after the cross). They represent every person that has been saved by God’s grace and washed in the blood of Jesus and have known the joy of sins forgiven. Those in Christ have experienced a second birth – a spiritual birth, they are indwelt, kept and governed by the Spirit of God. This is the only salvation known to man.

Before the cross the believer looked forward by faith to the finished work of the cross of Jesus, today we look back by faith to the atoning work of Christ. Al belong to the one unitary people of God.
 
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Guojing

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Every man since Adam is born with original sin and therefore stands completely guilty before a righteous God. In the first Adam (the first nature) all are sinners and therefore destined to lost eternity. The Bible says, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Romans 5:12).

Man – in all generations – inherited Adam’s awful sinful nature, which ultimately separates man from a holy God. So we can see, man, irrespective of race, birthplace or birth date, shares the same pitiful deformity.

Romans 5:15 says, "For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The awful “condemnation” that afflicts every man since the fall through inherited sin is completely removed “in Christ” through the new birth experience. Through salvation the penitent is fully justified and “made righteous” in the eyes of God. He is taken instantly from spiritual death into spiritual life by being raised from a horrible spiritual grave.

The Bible tells us: in Adam all die (1 Corinthians 15:22) – that is both physically and spiritually – whereas in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22). In the first Adam we are destined to eternal death, whereas in Christ (the second or last Adam) we are assured eternal life.

Man’s first birth was not adequate enough to save him. Jesus emphasizes: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.” Man needed a second birth. He needed divine intervention in order to help him see things properly and do things right. His spirit had to be made alive.

You are not getting it! Romans 5:18-19 says, as by the offence of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Scripture places men in one of two distinct groups since the beginning – those in Adam and those in Christ. Those in Adam simply experience one birth in life and never come to know the joy of the second spiritual birth. They are filled with themselves and their own selfish desires and thoughts. This company is made up of Jew and Gentile alike throughout time. The second group are those “in Christ,” referring to the redeemed throughout time (before and after the cross). They represent every person that has been saved by God’s grace and washed in the blood of Jesus and have known the joy of sins forgiven. Those in Christ have experienced a second birth – a spiritual birth, they are indwelt, kept and governed by the Spirit of God. This is the only salvation known to man.

Before the cross the believer looked forward by faith to the finished work of the cross of Jesus, today we look back by faith to the atoning work of Christ. Al belong to the one unitary people of God.

You used scripture from Paul's letters so yes, the Body of Christ was first revealed to him.

Your doctrine of people looking forward to the cross, before the cross , is your own personal doctrine, which you are of course entitled to have. (Matthew 16:22)
 
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Guojing

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The NT places all mankind either "in Adam" or "in Christ." Your attempt to create a 3rd group of people and an alternative salvation is very mistaken.

You are using Romans 5:12-19 for that doctrine, which is the mystery of the body of Christ revealed to Paul.
 
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Guojing

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Yes you are. James indeed meant what he said and said what he meant, but not according to your understanding, what you have argued or mean. Quite the opposite.

I am taking his word literally, not even trying to interpret what he said, unlike what you are doing.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You used scripture from Paul's letters so yes, the Body of Christ was first revealed to him.

Your doctrine of people looking forward to the cross, before the cross , is your own personal doctrine, which you are of course entitled to have. (Matthew 16:22)

You have a severe difficulty addressing Scripture. Your fly-by evasive posts do not cut it but rather expose how bereft Dispensationalism is of biblical support. You have no answer for the Book. It is that which negates your doctrine.

Scripture places all men either "in Adam" or "in Christ." Men either have one birth (or are merely born of the flesh) or they possess a spiritual birth (or a second birth) which regenerates them and brings them amongst the redeemed. It has been like that from the beginning.

Adam goes right back to the beginning. Christ is before the beginning. Christ was man's hope and redeemer from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8).

The awful reality for mankind (in both the OT and the NT) is found in James 2:10: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments (the law of God) in Exodus 20:1–17, as a revelation of His holy expectation. It was a list of ‘dos and don’ts’ and is commonly known as the moral law. This moral law was a revelation of God’s holy mind in regard to righteousness and holy standards.

Rom 7:13: "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."

But saying all this, Paul says in Romans 3:20, by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.”

This is repeated throughout Scripture!

Galatians 3:10-11 says, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse … But no man is justified by the law in the sight of God.”

Galatians 2:16 declares, a man is not justified by the works of the law.”

1 Timothy 1:8-10: the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane …”

Outside of Christ we know nothing, and outside of the Spirit of God we are unable to comprehend spiritual things or achieve them. That is why we have to trust the illumination of the Spirit and the truth of the Word of God.

The law of God is simply there to show us the holiness of God and the sinfulness of man. It also reveals God’s righteous character. But no one can perfectly keep the law because it is perfect and we are imperfect.

Hebrews 7:20 & 22 says, “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God … By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.”

Our salvation is built solely and wholly upon Christ's keeping the law. We cannot keep the law. The pole is too high. If you have ever tried to keep it, then you will know that it is futile task! I would rather place my hope in Jesus Christ! Our faith is therefore 100% in the law-keeper - Jesus Christ.
 
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Guojing

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You have a severe difficulty addressing Scripture. Your fly-by evasive posts do not cut it but rather expose how bereft Dispensationalism is of biblical support. You have no answer for the Book. It is that which negates your doctrine.

Scripture places all men either "in Adam" or "in Christ." Men either have one birth (or are merely born of the flesh) or they possess a spiritual birth (or second birth) which regenerates them and brings them amongst the redeemed. It has been like that from the beginning.

Adam goes right back to the beginning.

James 2:10: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments (the law of God) in Exodus 20:1–17, as a revelation of His holy expectation. It was a list of ‘dos and don’ts’ and is commonly known as the moral law. This moral law was a revelation of God’s holy mind in regard to righteousness and holy standards.

Rom 7:13: "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."

But saying all this, Paul says in Romans 3:20, by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.”

This is repeated throughout Scripture!

Galatians 3:10-11 says, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse … But no man is justified by the law in the sight of God.”

Galatians 2:16 declares, a man is not justified by the works of the law.”

1 Timothy 1:8-10: the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane …”

Outside of Christ we know nothing, and outside of the Spirit of God we are unable to comprehend spiritual things or achieve them. That is why we have to trust the illumination of the Spirit and the truth of the Word of God.

The law of God is simply there to show us the holiness of God and the sinfulness of man. It also reveals God’s righteous character. But no one can perfectly keep the law because it is perfect and we are imperfect.

Hebrews 7:20 & 22 says, “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God … By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.”

Our salvation is built solely and wholly upon Christ's keeping the law. We cannot keep the law. The pole is too high. If you have ever tried to keep it, then you will know that it is futile task! I would rather place my hope in Jesus Christ! Our faith is therefore 100% in the law-keeper - Jesus Christ.

You are basing your salvation on the gospel of grace revealed to Paul, as I am too, which is the correct decision.

But when you encounter people like James saying different things about how to be saved in Scripture, you try to insert Paul's mystery into what James was actually saying, instead of respecting the literal meaning of James words.

After all, you are even willing to believe that James was committing a mistake in Acts 21:18-25, that is the extent to which you are willing to believe in, in order to make James say the same thing as Paul.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You are basing your salvation on the gospel of grace revealed to Paul, as I am too, which is the correct decision.

But when you encounter people like James saying different things about how to be saved in Scripture, you try to insert Paul's mystery into what James was actually saying, instead of respecting the literal meaning of James words.

After all, you are even willing to believe that James was committing a mistake in Acts 21:18-25, that is the extent to which you are willing to believe in, in order to make James say the same thing as Paul.

I am taking his word literally, not even trying to interpret what he said, unlike what you are doing.

No you are not! You are twisting what James said to invent a good-works salvation unknown to the Scriptures. Few have any difficulty with acknowledging that the redeemed in the New Testament are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Ephesians 2:8-9 confirms, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Many will normally quote the common New Testament phrase: “the just shall live by faith” (Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11 and Hebrews 10:38) to reinforce their contention. But these New Testament passages are directly referencing Habakkuk 2:4 in the Old Testament, which states: “the just shall live by his faith.

The fact is: the basis of salvation is the same in both the Old and the New Testaments. The old covenant saints looked forward by faith to Israel’s coming Redeemer and experienced forgiveness. Only those Israelis who accept the Gospel constituted God’s people. Dispensationalists should know: salvation has always been by grace, through faith, in Christ (the Messiah). Men of faith are found throughout the Old Testament. Hebrews 11 attests to this in a very powerful and detailed way. If men are born in sin, and if faith is the product of the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, then the Old Testament saints must assuredly have supernaturally been birthed of the Spirit. Faith is the spiritual fruit of the renewing work of the Spirit of God within a human. Of course, the old covenant saints looked forward “by faith” to their promised coming Messiah who would redeem His people (Hebrews 11:13). But it seems evident that the Spirit performs the same transformative function in Old Testament times as He does in the New Testament economy.
 
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jgr

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You are using Romans 5:12-19 for that doctrine, which is the mystery of the body of Christ revealed to Paul.
Ephesians 3
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Paul disclosed the mystery.

The mystery was not the Body of Christ, but rather the Gentiles inclusion in it.
 
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Guojing

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No you are not! You are twisting what James said to invent a good-works salvation unknown to the Scriptures. Few have any difficulty with acknowledging that the redeemed in the New Testament are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Ephesians 2:8-9 confirms, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Many will normally quote the common New Testament phrase: “the just shall live by faith” (Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11 and Hebrews 10:38) to reinforce their contention. But these New Testament passages are directly referencing Habakkuk 2:4 in the Old Testament, which states: “the just shall live by his faith.

The fact is: the basis of salvation is the same in both the Old and the New Testaments. The old covenant saints looked forward by faith to Israel’s coming Redeemer and experienced forgiveness. Only those Israelis who accept the Gospel constituted God’s people. Dispensationalists should know: salvation has always been by grace, through faith, in Christ (the Messiah). Men of faith are found throughout the Old Testament. Hebrews 11 attests to this in a very powerful and detailed way. If men are born in sin, and if faith is the product of the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, then the Old Testament saints must assuredly have supernaturally been birthed of the Spirit. Faith is the spiritual fruit of the renewing work of the Spirit of God within a human. Of course, the old covenant saints looked forward “by faith” to their promised coming Messiah who would redeem His people (Hebrews 11:13). But it seems evident that the Spirit performs the same transformative function in Old Testament times as He does in the New Testament economy.

When someone takes James's words literally, you can actually claim they are twisting his words. =)
 
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sovereigngrace

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When someone takes James's words literally, you can actually claim they are twisting his words. =)

I see a pattern over this past few weeks. You cannot theologically refute the detailed biblical truth presented to you in any way, so you respond to the multiple Scriptures and detailed posts with your short evasive fly-by posts containing questionable private interpretation. This is typical of Dispensationalism, that is exposed by the Word. You have nothing to rebut Amil with because it is solidly built upon the Word.

There is nothing to address apart from your personal opinion and good-works salvation theory. Scripture suitably blows that out of the water.

Your constant avoidance of Scripture after Scripture that exposes your position does not in any way advance your opinion but rather negates it.
 
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The Body of Christ was a mystery first revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:9)

Romans 16:7 indicated that there were others in Christ before Paul.

So it follows that being in the Body of Christ is not necessary to be in Christ.

Ephesians 3:1-9: “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

What you miss is that the Church is not a New Testament novelty introduced by Christ but an ongoing spiritual organism that has contained the elect of God from the very beginning. The Church is not something entirely unique in God's plan and purposes but is an extension of Old Testament believing Israel. Whilst the Church has taken on a different form under the new covenant, in the same way as the development / change occurs between the caterpillar and the butterfly, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same spiritual body.

Paul never says that the Church wasn’t about before Pentecost. In fact he teaches the opposite. He identifies the mystery in a clear and unambiguous way in verse 6, namely: “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” The Dispensational interpretation is the exact opposite to what the inspired text is actually saying. Paul is in fact talking about the joining of the old and new covenant saints together in Christ. The mystery is the mystical union of the people of God of all time in one spiritual body. He is talking about the parity that resulted from this merger in regard to the promises of God.

The Church itself was not a mystery (or secret) prior to Paul, neither was God's great eternal plan of redemption, neither was the ingathering of the Gentiles. Passage after passage in the Old Testament predicted these events. What was a mystery was the Gentiles being “fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.”
 
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