John 14:1-3 "I will com again" - post-trib, pre-mill, full Rapture, visible

sovereigngrace

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Hi sg,

Glad to hear that. Now I did post in relation to your view of OT and Body of Christ being one. I showed how we have different inheritances. Here it is again.

1. On Christ`s throne on Mount Zion in the highest.

`(God the Father) I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion...` (Ps. 2: 6)
`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)


2. The city, New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven from God.

`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God...` (Rev. 21: 2)
`Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16)


3. The earth.

`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light...` (Rev. 21: 24)

God`s word reveals these different inheritances, and thus we are not all one group in the one place.

Marilyn.

Before you even go there, you are going to have to show us how Jesus was wrong to teach that there is only one sheep fold and not two and how Paul was wrong to teach that Christ has made one new man out of two. Until you prove that your attempts to separate the spiritual abodes of God's elect will be rejected as erroneous.
 
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keras

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Hi keras,

It is easy to say that something is wrong, however to actually PROVE with scripture, it is a different matter.

Marilyn.
Who it will be that will occupy all of the holy Land in the end times and into the Millennium, is the Lords faithful Christian peoples. Isaiah 66:18b-21 can only be about them; from every race and language. As described in Revelation 5:9-10
Also as described about their gathering in Psalms 107:1-43. ...those redeemed by the Lord and gathered from the nations, from East and West, from North and South.........Whoever is wise, let them lay these things to heart.....

The faithful Christians, already redeemed because of their acceptance of Jesus; NOT the apostate Jews, who still reject Jesus.
 
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Douggg

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Neither your flawed unbiblical chart, Ezekiel 38 and 39 or any other Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7-year tribulation followed by a 3rd coming. It is blatantly extra biblical. You or no Pretribbers is able to show that.
You keep saying that the rapture is not in Ezekiel 38-39. No-one is disagreeing with that point nor claiming that it is.

Talk about what is in Ezekiel 38-39.

What country is going to be attacked by Gog/Magog ?
 
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sovereigngrace

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You keep saying that the rapture is not in Ezekiel 38-39. No-one is disagreeing with that point nor claiming that it is.

Talk about what is in Ezekiel 38-39.

What country is going to be attacked by Gog/Magog ?

It has already happened a long time ago. Ezekiel 38 and 39 describe an ancient battle, which has already occurred, not a modern battle.
 
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Douggg

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It has already happened a long time ago. Ezekiel 38 and 39 describe an ancient battle, which has already occurred, not a modern battle.

What country is attacked by Gog/Magog in the latter days and latter years?
 
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sovereigngrace

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What country is attacked by Gog/Magog in the latter days and latter years?

I already addressed that with you previously. You are obsessed with those two chapters and force you whole end-time views into your questionable interpretation of them.

The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).
 
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Douggg

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I already addressed that with you previously. You are obsessed with those two chapters and force you whole end-time views into your questionable interpretation of them.

The transport is ancient – “horses” (Ezekiel 38:4) and “chariots” (Ezekiel 39:20).
The weapons are ancient – “bows and the arrows” (Ezekiel 39:9).
The protection is ancient "bucklers and shields" (Ezekiel 38:4 & 39:9).
The spoil is ancient – “cattle and goods” (Ezekiel 38:13).
You never did say what county.
 
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DavidPT

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It has already happened a long time ago. Ezekiel 38 and 39 describe an ancient battle, which has already occurred, not a modern battle.


You are apparently not grasping that latter years and latter days are involving the same last days the NT are involving. You apparently somehow think there are more than one set of latter days, one prior to the first coming, another one as of the first coming. Logic says that anything involving last days, those days have to end eventually. So when did the last days meant in Ezekiel 38-39 end? And how can there be even more days after the last day, right? Isn't this the manner you argue when it comes to the NT and the last days then the last day. Last days have to have a last day eventually, so why aren't you arguing that the last day of the last days meant in Ezekiel 38, that there are no more days after that last day?

Ezekiel 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.


Try and be consistent at least. If you are going to argue that there are no more days after the last day of the last days that began in the first century, you also need to argue that there are no more days after the last day of the last days meant in Ezekiel 38-39.
 
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Marilyn C

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Before you even go there, you are going to have to show us how Jesus was wrong to teach that there is only one sheep fold and not two and how Paul was wrong to teach that Christ has made one new man out of two. Until you prove that your attempts to separate the spiritual abodes of God's elect will be rejected as erroneous.

HI sg,

Fair enough. I quite understand how you are thinking, however I hope to bring in more of God`s word to explain.

`And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.`(John 10: 16)

This is the scripture you are talking about. So we ask ourselves what is this `One flock?`

`My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father`s hand. I and my Father are one.`(John 10: 29)

So the Lord has said that those He has been given are in the Father`s hand. Then as we read more of God`s word we see that the Lord refers to `the kingdom of God.`

`Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.`(John 3: 5)

So it is that I believe the `one flock`are in God`s great kingdom.
They are all in the Father`s hand, under one shepherd, and in God`s great kingdom.

Then we need to ask, Where are they all?

Marilyn.


 
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keras

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Then we need to ask, Where are they all?
They are scattered among the nations; all the faithful Christian people from every tribe, race, nation and language.
They will be brought into their heritage, all the holy Land. John sees them there; Revelation 7:9
 
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Spiritual Jew

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But you said Jesus exercises all power and authority now.
That I do not agree with and as our current situation proves not to be the case.
Your understanding of what that means is flawed. For someone to exercise their authority does not mean that the person needs to be a dictator and control everything that everyone does. As I said before, nothing happens without His permission. He said He has all power and authority in heaven and in earth. That means He can use that power and authority however He sees fit. He doesn't have to control everything people do and doesn't have to punish people immediately after they win because He knows the day is coming when He will get His vengeance on His enemies (2 Thess 1:7-10) and He will judge all people (Romans 14:10-12, Matthew 25:31-46).

I am sorry you take my comments personally.
You make it personal with your abrasive, insulting way of communicating. If you disagree with me, fine. So be it. It happens. You don't need to say that my comments are ridiculous or full of hot air and things like that.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi SJ,

I will be starting a thread in the future concerning those 3 Prophetic Days in God`s word. However here is a short part.

`But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise....` looking for and hastening of the Day of Gd, because of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved....` (2 Peter 3: 10 & 12)

Day of the Lord.

........I.....................................................................I.......>
Thief in the night. (trib,) (millennium) heavens etc burnt up

Marilyn.
You didn't respond to what I said about Zechariah 12:10. Why not?

As for 2 Peter 3:10-12, I believe your interpretation is quite a stretch. There is no time of tribulation or millennium mentioned anywhere in 2 Peter 3. It only speaks of the day when the heavens and earth will be burned up by fire. In 2 Peter 3:5-7, Peter compared that event to when the earth was covered by the flood waters. That's it. Nothing about a tribulation period or a millennium is mentioned at all in 2 Peter 3.

Peter was only talking about what will happen on the day Christ returns. He will burn up the heavens and the earth and the result will be the new heavens and the new earth. Peter said we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth as a result of the promise of Christ's coming again. Why are you looking forward to a temporary earthly kingdom instead?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Why do you lump all unspecified acts of judgment into one singularity? God judges the world daily. Should God not do that?
Should I take this response to mean that you are unable to tell me which of the 4 judgments you mentioned are referenced in each of the passages I quoted (such as Acts 17:30-31, Matt 12:36 and 2 Peter 3:7)?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi SJ,

Yes in the Body of Christ there is no divisions. However the 12 Apostles have been given the promise of rulership over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28, Rev. 21: 14)

Note that Peter knew nothing of the Body of Christ and tried to get the believers to be Jewish. (Gal. 2: 11 - 14)

Marilyn.
The 12 apostles are in the Body of Christ. There is no division among God's people at all. All of God's people are part of the Body of Christ. Nothing you have said even remotely says otherwise. Jesus has brought all believers from all-time, Jew and Gentile, together as one. That is something we should all rejoice over instead of trying to insist that there is still division amongst believers.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi SJ,

We need to read a bit more carefully.
I believe that about you.

Glad you quoted that scripture.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

See the `something better?` In the Greek that refers to `a greater dominion.`

So we, the Body of Christ are promised to sit with the Lord on His own throne in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21) While the OT saints, (Heb. 11) have been promised the `city` which will come out of the highest to a lower realm. Together under Christ, but in different realms we will all rule with Him in God`s great kingdom.

Marilyn.
It seems that rather than reading the passage carefully and objectively, you read it with a lot of doctrinal bias instead.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This is not saying that God is going to provide something better for us (NT saints) than for them (OT saints). No! Only doctrinal bias could lead someone to interpret it that way. Instead, it's quite clear that they (OT saints) will experience the same promise as us, which is being made perfect. I believe that is a reference to all believers (OT and NT) being changed and having immortal bodies at the last trumpet as Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

Also, the better thing has to do with what was mentioned earlier in Hebrews 11, which is the "better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.". That is a reference to the heavenly new Jerusalem which is for all believers from all-time. The New Jerusalem is called "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9). What believer is not part of the bride of Christ? You can't inherit eternal life without belonging to Christ.
 
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keras

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Peter was only talking about what will happen on the day Christ returns. He will burn up the heavens and the earth and the result will be the new heavens and the new earth
It is perfectly clear from the prophesies about the Return, that this does not happen then.
The NH, NE will come AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It is perfectly clear from the prophesies about the Return, that this does not happen then.
You believe that because you don't understand that 2 Peter 3 is a prophecy about His return. And Peter makes it quite clear as to what will happen on the day He returns. It fits with what is taught in other scriptures such as 1 Thess 5:1-6, Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:7-9. No unbeliever will escape His return. They will all be destroyed. Scripture is very clear about that.

The NH, NE will come AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1
Of course. Who here doesn't believe that? No one. We all believe that.
 
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keras

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No unbeliever will escape His return. They will all be destroyed. Scripture is very clear about that.
I do agree with this.
But there will firstly be the sudden and shocking Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal. That worldwide disaster will decimate the worlds population. Isaiah 66:15-17, Psalms 37:9-10 & 20, Psalms 97:3-5, Jeremiah 9:22, +

The two events do not match and the SS is the event which will commence all the end time events, leading up to the Return.
 
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Timtofly

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Should I take this response to mean that you are unable to tell me which of the 4 judgments you mentioned are referenced in each of the passages I quoted (such as Acts 17:30-31, Matt 12:36 and 2 Peter 3:7)?
I pointed out 4 different judgments from how they were described in Scripture. It was not to make categories of different judgments types.

Paul in Acts is not describing a resurrection, so the Second Coming at the 6th Seal will bring to light all of mankind's unrighteousness.

Sodom and Gomorrah stand at the GWT.

Idle words will effect the rewards of those in Christ as they are only left with works that come out of the fire as gold.

The works of man and Satan's technology are burned up at the Second Coming of the 6th Seal.
 
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