20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Status
Not open for further replies.

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Paul never stated that the Body of Christ began at Pentecost in Acts 2.

Scripture states it. That's good enough for me.

Again:

The Body of Christ is the NT Church. Colossians 1:24 .

The NT Church began at Pentecost. Acts 2:41,47

Paul's conversion did not occur until several years later.

Therefore, Paul was not the first member of the Body of Christ, the NT Church.

Re-read post 3818.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
James 2 explains what James meant in acts 21.

But since you claim James was mistaken in acts 21, that won’t matter to your doctrine.

You obviously have no answer to the scriptural evidence. You did not address one text or one argument. This is sadly how you deal with the truth presented. This exposes the error of Dispensationalism.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Body of Christ is the NT Church.

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

The first members of the NT Church were added at Pentecost.

Acts 2
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Paul's conversion occurred several years after Pentecost.

He was not the first member of the Body of Christ.

1 Timothy 1:16 Greek

4413 [e]
prōtō
πρώτῳ ,
[the] foremost
Adj-DMS

The word translated "first" in the KJV is most accurately translated "foremost" or "chief". Paul described himself as the foremost or chief of sinners. The same Greek word is used in 1 Timothy 1:15 .

The NASB renders them accurately.

1 Timothy 1
15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost.
16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost sinner Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

I have to disagree. The NT Church or congregation was that which existed after Christ made the new covenant in His blood. Pentecost was the empowerment of that Church to fulfill the great commission.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I have to disagree. The NT Church or congregation was that which existed after Christ made the new covenant in His blood. Pentecost was the empowerment of that Church to fulfill the great commission.

I don't disagree. I was seeking Scripture that convincingly showed additions to the Church/Body of Christ well before Paul. Any other such Scripture is certainly welcome.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I have to disagree. The NT Church or congregation was that which existed after Christ made the new covenant in His blood. Pentecost was the empowerment of that Church to fulfill the great commission.

The wording of Isaiah 66:8, fulfilled in Acts 2, suggests that the NT Church was a net new birth that day.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The wording of Isaiah 66:8, fulfilled in Acts 2, suggests that the NT Church was a net new birth that day.

I would personally relate that to Calvary. If not, you create another dispensation between Calvary and Pentecost that last 50 days that leaves believers in limbo. Basically, they embrace the eternal new covenant sacrifice of Christ but have to wait to experience it. That does not make sense to me.

I see two covenants separated by the cross. The Old is before Calvary, the New after it. Anything else takes the focus away from Christ and what He did for us.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Spiritual Jew
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you are keen to learn, you can view this to understand the difference.

Of course, you are also free to reject this teaching.
I won't watch videos or go to websites that are posted here, so please don't bother posting them when you respond to me. I have no interest in that. I'm talking to you and having a discussion with you, not someone in a video that I can't talk to here.

So, again, please answer these questions:

What are the requirements for someone to be in Christ?

What are the requirements for someone to be in the body of Christ?
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I won't watch videos or go to websites that are posted here, so please don't bother posting them when you respond to me. I have no interest in that. I'm talking to you and having a discussion with you, not someone in a video that I can't talk to here.

So, again, please answer these questions:

What are the requirements for someone to be in Christ?

What are the requirements for someone to be in the body of Christ?

Exactly, I always count that a sign of fragility in a doctrine when posters have to do that.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Spiritual Jew
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Read Acts 21:18-25 to understand that Paul was not contradicting himself.

The Body of Christ is a separate group from the little flock. The latter needed to obey the Law of Moses, which includes physical circumcision, even after they believe (James 2:24-26), but gentile believers are exempted by James in Acts 21:25.

Of course, if you also share the same view as SG, about James being mistaken in that Acts 21 passage, then your belief about having no distinction will naturally follow from that view.
Yes, I share his view. It clearly took some time for Jewish believers, including James, to realize that they were no longer under the old covenant ceremonial law and instead were under the new covenant established by Christ's blood.

Instead of admonishing James and the other Jews and creating controversy and dissension, Paul went along with what James wanted in order to win more Jews over to Christ. You can read about his approach to evangelizing Jews here:

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Clearly, Paul did not take part in the old covenant law purification rituals with the four Jewish men mentioned in Acts 21:23-24 because he thought they were required to do so. No. He did it in order "gain the Jews" and "gain them that are under the law". He did it "for the gospel's sake" in order to "save some".
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
James 2 explains what James meant in acts 21.

But since you claim James was mistaken in acts 21, that won’t matter to your doctrine.
In James 2, James is not talking about works of the law when he talks about works. Do you understand that? Otherwise, he would be contradicting Paul when Paul said things like this:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Please address what sovereigngrace said in post #3813 instead of trying to divert attention away from it. You are claiming that old covenant rituals like circumcision are a requirement for Jews while scripture says that circumcision avails nothing. Why are you contradicting what scripture says about old covenant rituals and whether or not they are still required (scripture says they are not)?
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The term body of Christ is not equivalent to the term church.

A church is a called out assembly.
What is required to be part of the body of Christ? What is required to be part of the church?
 
Upvote 0

ShineyDays2

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2018
432
216
81
Murphy
✟50,616.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The term body of Christ is not equivalent to the term church. A church is a called out assembly.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:
Strong's Number: g1577
Greek: ekklesia/ἐκκλησία

Assembly: from ek, "out of," and klesis, "a calling" (kaleo, "to call"),

It has two applications to companies of Christians,
(a) to the whole company of the redeemed throughout the present era, the company of which Christ said, "I will build My Church," Mat 16:18, and which is further described as "the Church which is His Body," Eph 1:22; 5:23,

(b) in the singular number (e.g., Mat 18:17, RV marg., "congregation"), to a company consisting of professed believers, e.g., Act 20:28; 1Cr 1:2; Gal 1:13; 1Th 1:1; 2Th 1:1; 1Ti 3:5, and in the plural, with reference to churches in a district.​

There is an apparent exception in the RV of Act 9:31, where, while the AV has "churches," the singular seems to point to a district; but the reference is clearly to the church as it was in Jerusalem, from which it had just been scattered, Act 8:1. Again, in Rom 16:23, that Gaius was the host of "the whole church," simply suggests that the "assembly" in Corinth had been accustomed to meet in his house, where also Paul was entertained. (See CHURCH.)​
_________________________________________________________________________​
The KJV translates Strong's G1577 in the following manner: church (115x), assembly (3x).

You cannot get around that no matter how you try to fool us. Church = Ecclesia

Do you not get it yet? This is not ones opinion. I'm surprised you would even try to fool us by using the word "assembly" to avoid admitting that the church is the Body of Christ - the called out assembly.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
James 2 explains what James meant in acts 21.

But since you claim James was mistaken in acts 21, that won’t matter to your doctrine.

Scripture states in James 2:26: “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”

What does this mean?

· It is faith alone that saves, but faith that saves is not alone.
· Faith demands an action. It is not just an internal thought or feeling that produces no outward fruit. The genuine internal work of the Holy Spirit demands an outward expression or holy behavior.
· A life of faith brings godly service.
· Faith is dead if it has no visible expression in your life.
· Faith and works function like the sun and heat. They cannot be separated from each other. Good works are what faith produces.

Martin Luther put it brilliantly, “We’re not saved by faith and works. But we are saved by a faith that works.”

No man will ever work their way to heaven by human effort. No one will ever earn it. None us us will ever be good enough. If we could attain unto it: the cross wa a joke and God the Father was a tyrant.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Martin Luther put it brilliantly, “We’re not saved by faith and works. But we are saved by a faith that works.”


Doesn't come across as very brilliant sounding to me. Comes across as twisting words to mean something they don't mean. "works' is not being used in that sense.

Take Noah for instance. God informed him that a flood was coming and that he needed to prepare an ark, which he did. The building of the ark symbolizing works. What would have happened had Noah decided he did not want to finish the ark before the floods came, that he refused to finish it? Should one then assume faith alone would have saved him, thus he wouldn't have drowned with the rest even if he never completed the ark, but not because God didn't give him plenty of time to do so, but because he simply refused to keep building it until it got built?


And what does James 2 say again?


James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If building the ark symbolizes works in Noah's case, but that he refused to finish it, then relied on faith alone, he too would have literally been dead once the floods arrived. Exactly what James 2:20 indicates---faith without works is dead.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Guojing
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Doesn't come across as very brilliant sounding to me. Comes across as twisting words to mean something they don't mean. "works' is not being used in that sense.

Take Noah for instance. God informed him that a flood was coming and that he needed to prepare an ark, which he did. The building of the ark symbolizing works. What would have happened had Noah decided he did not want to finish the ark before the floods came, that he refused to finish it? Should one then assume faith alone would have saved him, thus he wouldn't have drowned with the rest even if he never completed the ark, but not because God didn't give him plenty of time to do so, but because he simply refused to keep building it until it got built?


And what does James 2 say again?


James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If building the ark symbolizes works in Noah's case, but that he refused to finish it, then relied on faith alone, he too would have literally been dead once the floods arrived. Exactly what James 2:20 indicates---faith without works is dead.

Address what I said not Luther.
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,773
1,309
sg
✟214,746.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I won't watch videos or go to websites that are posted here, so please don't bother posting them when you respond to me. I have no interest in that. I'm talking to you and having a discussion with you, not someone in a video that I can't talk to here.

So, again, please answer these questions:

What are the requirements for someone to be in Christ?

What are the requirements for someone to be in the body of Christ?

You Need to believe the gospel found in 1 cor 15:1-4 to be in the body of Christ, the gospel of the uncircumcision.

Being in the body of Christ is sufficient to be in Christ but it’s not necessary.

Before Paul, there were many others who were in Christ (Romans 16:7), but thru the gospel of the kingdom/circumcision.
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,773
1,309
sg
✟214,746.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Could you provide the verse for that and what that verse means to you?

Before I give you the answer for that, would you like to address the little flock question that I posed to you in 20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

If you claim that you are in the little flock in Luke 12:32, why do you not obey Jesus command to you in vs 33 to sell all you have?

What does Luke 12:33 means to you? Is that only a suggestion to you, or do you prefer to spiritualize that command like what you did for the verses about cutting body parts, that we discussed initially?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,773
1,309
sg
✟214,746.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Scripture states in James 2:26: “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”

What does this mean?

· It is faith alone that saves, but faith that saves is not alone.
· Faith demands an action. It is not just an internal thought or feeling that produces no outward fruit. The genuine internal work of the Holy Spirit demands an outward expression or holy behavior.
· A life of faith brings godly service.
· Faith is dead if it has no visible expression in your life.
· Faith and works function like the sun and heat. They cannot be separated from each other. Good works are what faith produces.

Martin Luther put it brilliantly, “We’re not saved by faith and works. But we are saved by a faith that works.”

No man will ever work their way to heaven by human effort. No one will ever earn it. None us us will ever be good enough. If we could attain unto it: the cross wa a joke and God the Father was a tyrant.

I prefer not to help James explain what he really meant, but I can understand why you might want to do that.

He stated that faith alone without works, being dead, cannot justify anyone, and that was exactly what he meant.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.