John 14:1-3 "I will com again" - post-trib, pre-mill, full Rapture, visible

Marilyn C said:

In Matt. 24: 31 it is the Jews that are being gathered. Isaiah tells us they come to Jerusalem on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels.` (Isa. 66: 20)

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This would be one of the worst cases of picking a scripture out of context, I have seen.
Isaiah 66:18b-21 is plainly an end time prophecy, about peoples from every nation and language, the true faithful Christian people of God. Revelation 5:9-10
Isaiah 66:15-17 tell us how the Lord will Judge an punish all the world.
Jews will not be excepted. Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Romans 1:18

We Christians will travel to the holy Land as verse 20 prophesies. Psalms 107 tells about it.

keras said:

This would be one of the worst cases of picking a scripture out of context, I have seen.
Isaiah 66:18b-21 is plainly an end time prophecy, about peoples from every nation and language, the true faithful Christian people of God. Revelation 5:9-10
Isaiah 66:15-17 tell us how the Lord will Judge an punish all the world.
Jews will not be excepted. Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Romans 1:18

We Christians will travel to the holy Land as verse 20 prophesies. Psalms 107 tells about it.

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Hi keras,

And you would be the ultimate judge on that! So if you are wrong and God`s word actually means what I said, then you are denigrating God`s word. Better to say, I believe ......So,please no more superiority.

Marilyn.

BobRyan said:

Rev 20 as it comes right after the Rev 19 second coming and "first resurrection" and is the place that the 1000 years between the first and second resurrection is mentioned.

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Do you reject the fact that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5)?

Marilyn C said:

Hi sg,

The Body of Christ and the OT saints are connected in Christ`s purposes.

The Body of Christ to rule on Christ`s own throne in the highest.
The OT saints and the 12 disciples to be in the city, the New Jerusalem which comes down from the highest.
On the earth, Israel ruling over the nations.

Each realm has rulership under Christ and through Christ`s work, from the highest, to the earth.

Marilyn.

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Why do Dispies constantly sidestep the inspired text? It is because it exposes Dispensationalism. I refer you back to the multiples points that you carefully skipped around.

God’s truth was a gradual ongoing enlightenment which got brighter and clearer. The revelation, terminologies, and fulfilment came to its fullness with the coming of Christ, His perfect life, His atoning death and glorious resurrection. These realized the hope of the Law, the prophets and Old Testament Israel.

While new terminologies, symbols and truths are used in the New Testament that does not mean they are not seen in a veiled or typical sense in the Old. They are! Christ was always man's only hope. The cross was God's wonderful remedy for man's awful calamity. What is more, the salvation of the Gentiles was predicted in Genesis to Abraham and can be found through the Hebrew pages. The ekklesia (the congregation of God) can be seen in the Old Testament and was predicted many times by the prophets to expand out to the nations. This is what indeed happened.

This artificial division that you make between Israel and the Church is simply done to justify and support the error of Dispensationalism. Thankfully, many within that camp over this past 20 years have abandoned it. Many have embraced biblical Covenant Theology, many others have embraced Progressive Dispensationalists. That is because classic Dispensationalism is blatantly unscriptural and untenable.

There has always been the outward visible expression of the people of God and then the true spiritual manifestation of the true elect – or remnant. We see that in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

We see this in Romans 9:6-13: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

What this is saying is, those who are not saved have no right to consider themselves as true Israel. The apostle here identifies two Israels; one elect and believing, the other lost and unbelieving. One is true spiritual Israel (“the children of God”/“the children of the promise”), the other is unbelieving and merely “children of the flesh.” Basically: national theocratic Israel was a political entity in which a believing spiritual remnant – true Israel – abode. It is only those Jews who belong to the remnant that are true Israelis in God’s eyes.

Jesus reminded the religious unregenerate Jews who claimed to be Abraham’s offspring that they were of their father the devil. Basically, their outward profession was mere fizz-and-bubble.

We see the same within the New Testament ekklesia. There are many that profess “Lord, Lord” but they do

· The Church (or assembly of God) can be found throughout the Old Testament in the professing people of God. The genuine elect being those who put their faith and trust in Israel’s Redeemer – Jesus Christ.
· True Israel (or the assembly of God) can be found throughout the New Testament in the professing people of God. These are those who have put their faith and trust in Israel’s redeemer. We today have been enjoined to elect Israel in the Old Testament.

These peoples are spiritually and eternally interconnected through the person of Christ and through His shed blood for lost sinners at that place called Calvary. There He died for lost sinners. There has never been any other Redeemer, any other redemption, any other salvation and any other hope.

These two peoples are interconnected through the person of Christ and
According to I Corinthians 10:1-4, the true people of God in the Old Testament all ate “the same spiritual meat” as we do – the Word of God, and drank “the same spiritual drink.” It says “they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them: and that rock was Christ.”

Hebrews 11:23-26 tells us that Moses by faith esteemed “the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt.”

Jesus can be found in every book of the Old Testament, whether by direct appearance, description, prediction or type in the Jewish ceremonial system.

sovereigngrace said:

Why do Dispies constantly sidestep the inspired text?

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Hi sg,

There you go again being rude calling me names. You have no idea of what I believe, so calling me a dispie, is ridiculous and just shows your lack of character in discussing God`s word. To attack a person reveals that you are not secure in presenting God`s word and thus have to put someone down so as to `win` your argument.

Marilyn.

sovereigngrace said:

I refer you back to the multiples points that you carefully skipped around.

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Hi again sg,

I am not going to go through your long lists which you continually down load. Now how about doing some work and actually discussing individual points.

Also throwing out generalizations such as `multiple points` I have so called skipped around. That is just not on, sg. That is not discussing but attacking.

Please try to do better. marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

Hi sg,

There you go again being rude calling me names. You have no idea of what I believe, so calling me a dispie, is ridiculous and just shows your lack of character in discussing God`s word. To attack a person reveals that you are not secure in presenting God`s word and thus have to put someone down so as to `win` your argument.

Marilyn.

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Stop avoiding the Scriptures that forbid your doctrine.

sovereigngrace said:

Stop avoiding the Scriptures that forbid your doctrine.

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sg, if you would just do ONE point at a time then we can discuss. I will not read your continual down loading of notes that you have for your teaching sessions.

Marilyn C said:

Hi again sg,

I am not going to go through your long lists which you continually down load. Now how about doing some work and actually discussing individual points.

Also throwing out generalizations such as `multiple points` I have so called skipped around. That is just not on, sg. That is not discussing but attacking.

Please try to do better. marilyn.

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I am not downloading anything from anywhere apart from my own writing. Some of us enjoy deep study. So keep your false allegations to yourself. What is more, you expect others to answer your questions yet you constantly avoid others. That is wrong. What I have presented needs addressed or i can only conclude you have no answers.

sovereigngrace said:

This artificial division that you make between Israel and the Church

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Hi sg,

Let`s focus on this which is the basis of your view. So you think my division between Israel and the Church is artificial. Perhaps you can tell me then. Which inheritance are you believing God for?

1. On Christ`s throne on Mount Zion in the highest.

`(God the Father) I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion...` (Ps. 2: 6)
`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)

2. The city, New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven from God.

`Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God...` (Rev. 21: 2)
`Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16)

3. The earth.

`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light...` (Rev. 21: 24)


What of God`s word do you not believe? Are we all in the highest? the city? the earth? Which sg?

Marilyn.

sovereigngrace said:

I am not downloading anything from anywhere apart from my own writing. Some of us enjoy deep study. So keep your false allegations to yourself. What is more,, you expect others to answer your questions yet you constantly avoid others. That is wrong. What I have presented needs addressed or i can only conclude you have no answers.

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That`s what I said - your teaching sessions. And that is NOT discussing. Yes use part of them but to discuss we need to work on a point and not your whole doctrine in one go.

You think that when you download your view that someone needs to answer the whole lot. Not so, for there are mistakes right through your view and it needs discussing a point at a time. Which it seems you are unwilling to do.

Marilyn.

Spiritual Jew said:

Scripture repeatedly speaks of a singular judgment day, not judgment days.

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No, because there is a judgment in Revelation 20:4 and then 1000 years later a judgment in Revelation 20:11-12.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

What is the first resurrection? It is the one in verse 4. What is the judgment seat of Christ? The one Jesus Christ is currently sitting on. What is the one in Matthew 25? It is the one set up in Jerusalem at the Second Coming. 4 different judgments.

If you are not twisting my words, then why deny these 4 different judgments? One judgment is ongoing as we speak. One at the Second Coming. One the church itself is sitting on thrones judging those beheaded in the tribulation. One that happens when there is not even a created reality, between this reality and the next one.

You have quoted all the verses, and read them.

Marilyn C said:

Hi keras,

And you would be the ultimate judge on that! So if you are wrong and God`s word actually means what I said, then you are denigrating God`s word. Better to say, I believe ......So,please no more superiority.

Marilyn.

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It is the Prophetic Word that is superior.
You quoted Isaiah 66:20 as proof of the Jewish return. That is plainly wrong; contradicts its context and opposes much other prophecy.

Rather that accusing me of being a judge, you should be ashamed of your errors and cease accusing the messenger

sovereigngrace said:

This artificial division that you make between Israel and the Church is simply done to justify and support the error of Dispensationalism. Thankfully, many within that camp over this past 20 years have abandoned it. Many have embraced biblical Covenant Theology, many others have embraced Progressive Dispensationalists. That is because classic Dispensationalism is blatantly unscriptural and untenable.

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Great summary of the war of words that is going on between two man-made systems designed to explain the bible.

The covenant theology system coming out of Great Britain in the break away from the RCC era - vs - the upstart Dispensation system that later came along and threated covenant theology's monopoly.

Covenant theology's denominations vs dispensationalism denominations.

But that war of words aside, if a person wants to inspect the truth of the bible, then Ezekiel 38-39 plainly distinguishes Israel as separate from the church in terms of bible prophecy.

Not in terms as there is only one way to be saved.

Marilyn C said:

That`s what I said - your teaching sessions. And that is NOT discussing. Yes use part of them but to discuss we need to work on a point and not your whole doctrine in one go.

You think that when you download your view that someone needs to answer the whole lot. Not so, for there are mistakes right through your view and it needs discussing a point at a time. Which it seems you are unwilling to do.

Marilyn.

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I would like to discuss God's Word deeper with you. Sadly, up until now, you skip around everything I (and other Amils) present. One just has to pick any thread we have engaged in and you will see evidence of this. Dispies typically do this. That is frustrating. It is easier to engage with Posttrib Premils or Partial Preterists because they want to flesh out the Scripture, not simply argue a man-made school of thought.

If you are willing to address the issues and not constantly evade them i am willing to go through your arguments one by one. If you are willing to dissect the sacred text instead of just posting unrelated references I am up for it.

Douggg said:

Great summary of the war of words that is going on between two man-made systems designed to explain the bible.

The covenant theology system coming out of Great Britain in the break away from the RCC era - vs - the upstart Dispensation system that later came along and threated covenant theology's monopoly.

Covenant theology's denominations vs dispensationalism denominations.

But that war of words aside, if a person wants to inspect the truth of the bible, then Ezekiel 38-39 plainly distinguishes Israel as separate from the church in terms of bible prophecy.

Not in terms as there is only one way to be saved.

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You are obsessed with Ezekiel 38-39 and interpret Ezekiel 38-39 through your opinion of these. Amillennialists interpret Scripture in the light of the consistent teach of all Scripture. This forbids Premil.

So, you spiritualize literal Scripture when it exposes your error? That sounds convenient. That sums up Pretrib.

sovereigngrace said:

You are obsessed with Ezekiel 38-39 and interpret Ezekiel 38-39 through your opinion of these. Amillennialists interpret Scripture in the light of the consistent teach of all Scripture. This forbids Premil.

So, you spiritualize literal Scripture when it exposes your error? That sounds convenient. That sums up Pretrib.

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This is Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum, and that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are in all of our Bibles, and that very little of Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been fulfilled yet, other than the house of Israel meant, the part that God has been hiding His face from, they are once again back in their land. Why shouldn't one be obsessed with these prophecies recorded in these two chapters if most of them are still meaning in our future, thus is on topic with the reason for this forum to begin with---Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum?

You might not be one of these Amils, but there are actually some Amils that agree that Ezekiel 38-39 involves endtimes events, except the way they interpret some of these things, not exactly always agreeing with the texts involved. But at least they acknowledge Ezekiel 38-39 involves endtimes events. That at least is a plus, compared to Amils who don't acknowledge Ezekiel 38-39 involves endtimes events. These particular Amils, meaning the latter, apparently think that in the NT when horses are mentioned, for example in Revelation 19, literal horses don't have to be meant and are not meant, but in the OT, anything involving prophecies, where it speaks of ancient weaponry, such as in Ezekiel 38 and 39, these have be taken in the literal sense, thus it is forbidden to take them in the same sense one might take horses in Revelation 19 to be meaning. Thus to them, since Ezekiel 38-39 involves ancient weaponry, and is in the OT not the NT, this must be understood in the literal sense, therefore nothing in Ezekiel 38-39 involves endtimes events.

sovereigngrace said:

Amillennialists interpret Scripture in the light of the consistent teach of all Scripture. This forbids Premil.

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You are philosophizing. Talk about the verses in Ezekiel 38-39 instead.

sovereigngrace said:

So, you spiritualize literal Scripture when it exposes your error? That sounds convenient. That sums up Pretrib.

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The nation of Israel, the land of Israel, is not spiriitualizing Scripture.

Pre-trib is a rapture timing view. Ezekiel 38-39 is not talking about the rapture.

Marilyn C said:

Hi SJ,

I see why you believe that. However I believe you are missing some key elements.

`The Lord (Father) said to my Lord, (Son), "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool.` (Ps. 110: 1)

Jesus is at the Father`s right hand, with all power and authority, building His Body, and the Father is bringing the nations to His Son`s footstool for judgment.

When the Lord comes to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon His enemies, there is still much to do. The Lord deals with the armies of the world, then goes over to Jerusalem and reveals Himself to Judah and the people of Jerusalem. They realize who He is and go into mourning. (Zech. 12: 7 - 14)

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Why do you put the timing of Zechariah 12:7-14 at the second coming of Christ when the timing of Zechariah 12:10 is placed at the time of Christ's crucifixion, as can be seen here in John 19:37:

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

As to the apostle Peter`s word, it relates to the whole of the `Day of the Lord.` That time encompasses the trib, the millennium and then everything burnt up bringing in the Day of God.

Their are 3 Prophetic Days of God -

1. The Day of Christ.
2. The Day of the Lord, (God Almighty - judgments)
3. The Day of God.

Marilyn.

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In my view you are making a straightforward prophecy (from 2 Peter 3) into something convoluted that no one can understand.

No, there are not "3 Prophetic Days of God". The references to "The day of Christ", "the day of the Lord" and "the day of God" are all referencing the same day. I believe only doctrinal bias can prevent someone from seeing that.

Can you please break down your understanding of 2nd Peter 3 down for me? Where does it speak of the time of tribulation? Where does it speak of "the millennium"?

When exactly do you believe everything will be burned up? Would you equate the timing of the burning up of everything with Revelation 20:9?

When Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.", what promise do you think he was referring to?

keras said:

Your wrong Amil belief makes you say such ridiculous things.
Matthew 4:8-9 proves that Satan does have earthly control. Albeit within God's restrictions; only what mankind allows him to do.

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Speaking of ridiculous. What mankind allows him to do? Is mankind in authority or is Jesus in authority? How ridiculous it is to think that anyone but Jesus is in authority. What you're saying is beyond ridiculous because you completely ignore what Jesus Himself said.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Scripture says that Jesus is in control and has all authority whether you acknowledge it or not. Not Satan. It's foolish to think otherwise. So, I say again that Satan can only do what Jesus allows him to do because Jesus has all power and authority in heaven and in earth, just as scripture clearly says.