The light travel time problem

tdidymas said:

And yet, some book told you that the sun doesn't rise, but the Earth turns, and you believe that, don't you? Therefore, you have a double standard.

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No, because scripture does not teach that the earth is flat and the moon landing was televised, I remember it from childhood. Also as I said before, if that was all a hoax there would need to be a jolly good reason for it and I have not been shown one. So yes I assume the world is round because it has been observed.

There is nothing wrong with observable science. The type of science that can be tested, observed happening and repeated.
Unlike the moon landing and space pictures, the things being claimed like the 'big bang' are not observable, repeatable things. No one can or has witnessed them. Do you not see the difference?

I showed that the death discussed in scripture is spiritual death. Adam died physically because he was denied the tree of life. But it appears you don't believe scripture in this instance.

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And I showed you that scripture talks about spiritual and physical death. You do believe that Jesus rose physically, don't you? And that we too shall be raised back to life?

The discussion is pointless because you're the only one pretending you know all.

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I most certainly don't know it all. I said that God will explain it all when we see him and that I believe it by faith. I don't try to reconcile science to the Bible because science doesn't have the past to test it only has the present. The present is not the past. What I do know is that God's word is true. So if it goes against science it is science that got it wrong.

It's pointless because you can't even put down for one second the idea that science-which is just man's knowledge- could possibly get anything wrong about anything.

tdidymas said:

Again the question: how to resolve the light travel time problem?

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Creation is very ancient and old, possibly eternally old. Man was re-made from animals only recently. This resolves that problem.

The word for "created" includes the definition "re-made".

SkyWriting said:

Creation is very ancient and old, possibly eternally old. Man was re-made from animals only recently. This resolves that problem.

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Mankind was never made from animals. Mankind was specifically created by God as a separate and special creation in his image.
Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Mankind is a different kind of flesh to animals, birds and sea creatures.
1 Corinthians 15:39
Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.

coffee4u said:

Mankind was never made from animals. Mankind was specifically created by God as a separate and special creation in his image.
Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Mankind is a different kind of flesh to animals, birds and sea creatures.
1 Corinthians 15:39
Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.

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The "Creation" and "Image" are the clues.
God is Spirit. So man was re-made from animals who had no Breath of God in them.
Man was re-born with a Spirit that was the image of God.
Another insight comes from "Create" or "bara".
As you can see from 1,2, and 3 (below), the creation process involves making changes to something that exists.

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Bara' TWOT - 278
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
baw-raw' Verb
Definition

1. to create, shape, form
   1. (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
      1. of heaven and earth
      2. of individual man
      3. of new conditions and circumstances
      4. of transformations
   2. (Niphal) to be created
      1. of heaven and earth
      2. of birth
      3. of something new
      4. of miracles
   3. (Piel)
      1. to cut down
      2. to cut out
2. to be fat
   1. (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

NAS Word Usage - Total: 53
brings about 1, clear 2, create 6, created 32, creates 1, creating 3, Creator 4, cut them down 1, make 2, produced 1

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/bara.html

Having an ancient earth that is changed solves the light/time problem.

SkyWriting said:

So man was re-made from animals who had no Breath of God in them.

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This is your conclusion based on what scripture?

Once you have shown scriptural proof for your first point then we can talk.

tdidymas said:

The past can be surmised by what we see in the present, as I have clearly shown.

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The past cannot be surmised by what we see in the present, because past conditions change from what they are today, and have changed all throughout time.

As well, science cannot tell us when the past event began to take place - it could have began millions of years ago, or only thousands of years ago.

In addition, when God created all things, including the stars to be as lights in the heaven as signs, it is not inconceivable to think God cannot also create the light from those stars to reach earth at the time He created them so as to accomplish His will for purpose of the stars.

You do realize your views on creation and evolution are your own thoughts based on what you were taught to believe. Your views are dangerous, because you are trying to read between the lines, and add to what you feel God meant in His Word to us, but what you are really doing is adding human wisdom to the words of the all wise, all knowing God who exists from all eternity. You are usurping the authority of God and His Word by your own human wisdom.

coffee4u said:

This is your conclusion based on what scripture? Once you have shown proof for your first point then we can talk.

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Making changes to an ancient earth solves the light/time problem.


There is no such thing as proof except in Math.
As you can see from 1,2, and 3 (above and below), the creation process
involves making changes to something that exists.

[Found in 28 minutes ago#146]

"Creation" - asah (עָשָׂה, to make or do) - also described as making changes to existing structures


accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow,
A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows) -- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress(-ed), (put in) execute(-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, (fight-)ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ((a feast)), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be (warr-)ior, work(-man), yield, use.
Strong's Hebrew: 6213. עָשָׂה (asah) -- accomplish

SkyWriting said:

There is no such thing as proof except in Math.
As you can see from 1,2, and 3 (above and below), the creation process
involves making changes to something that exists.

[Found in 28 minutes ago#146]

"Creation" - asah (עָשָׂה, to make or do) - also described as making changes to existing structures


accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow,
A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows) -- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress(-ed), (put in) execute(-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, (fight-)ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ((a feast)), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be (warr-)ior, work(-man), yield, use.
Strong's Hebrew: 6213. עָשָׂה (asah) -- accomplish

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Making changes to an ancient earth solves the light/time problem.

tdidymas said:

Again the question: how to resolve the light travel time problem?

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Scripture says the earth is ancient. This solves the problem.
Deuteronomy 33:15
With the finest produce of the ancient mountains and the abundance of the everlasting hills,

coffee4u said:

This is your conclusion based on what scripture?

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Deuteronomy 33:15
With the finest produce of the ancient mountains and the abundance of the everlasting hills,

SkyWriting said:

Scripture says the earth is ancient. This solves the problem.

Deuteronomy 33:15
With the finest produce of the ancient mountains and the abundance of the everlasting hills,

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Firstly, the light/time issue was never a problem for God. God created the lights to shine forth for its intended purpose at the time he created them.

Secondly, you are assuming ancient means millions or billions of years, when ancient could mean as little as 500 years ago.

You are dangerous with your man-made opinions you are forcing on the Scriptures.

SkyWriting said:

There is no such thing as proof except in Math.
As you can see from 1,2, and 3 (above and below), the creation process
involves making changes to something that exists.

[Found in 28 minutes ago#146]

"Creation" - asah (עָשָׂה, to make or do) - also described as making changes to existing structures


accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow,
A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows) -- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress(-ed), (put in) execute(-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, (fight-)ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ((a feast)), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be (warr-)ior, work(-man), yield, use.
Strong's Hebrew: 6213. עָשָׂה (asah) -- accomplish

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If you dislike the word proof, I don't need to use it.

You made a Biblical statement.
man was re-made from animals who had no Breath of God in them.
You are stating this as Biblical truth and as such you need scriptural backup.

If you have no scriptural backup then you have nothing except what your own mind has come up with.

Biblical teaching must be based on scripture because if not, then anybody can come up with anything they so please.

setst777 said:

Firstly, the light/time issue was never a problem for God. God created the lights to shine forth for its intended purpose at the time he created them.

Secondly, you are assuming ancient means millions or billions of years, when ancient could mean as little as 500 years ago.

You are dangerous with your man-made opinions you are forcing on the Scriptures.

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Not at all. Nothing anywhere is scripture says the earth is young.
Additionally, Adam was put in a garden to work the soil.
Any idea how old soil is? Pretty old. Any idea how old a garden is?
Pretty old. Any idea how old Adam and Eve were? Pretty old. Not Toddlers.
The creation language itself mostly mentions that things were changed or re-made.

Adam was formed from dust. Dust is pretty old.

SkyWriting said:

Deuteronomy 33:15
With the finest produce of the ancient mountains and the abundance of the everlasting hills,

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Deuteronomy 33 is Mosses blessing the tribes of Israel.

Verse 15 is taken from what Mosses says about Joseph.

13 About Joseph he said:

“May the Lord bless his land
with the precious dew from heaven above
and with the deep waters that lie below;
14 with the best the sun brings forth
and the finest the moon can yield;
15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains
and the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills;
16 with the best gifts of the earth and its fullness
and the favor of him who dwelt in the burning bush.
Let all these rest on the head of Joseph,
on the brow of the prince among his brothers.

It says nothing about mankind being made from previous clay animals.

coffee4u said:

If you dislike the word proof, I don't need to use it.

You made a Biblical statement.
man was re-made from animals who had no Breath of God in them.
You are stating this as Biblical truth and as such you need scriptural backup.

If you have no scriptural backup then you have nothing except what your own mind has come up with.

Biblical teaching must be based on scripture because if not, then anybody can come up with anything they so please.

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The definitions of the "Creation" words are 90% making changes to existing things.
Plus I grow gardens at home. I takes time before it it a paradise.
And Lava takes time to cool.

SkyWriting said:

Not at all. Nothing anywhere is scripture says the earth is young.
Additionally, Adam was put in a garden to work the soil.
Any idea how old soil is? Pretty old. Any idea how old a garden is?
Pretty old. Any idea how old Adam and Eve were? Pretty old. Not Toddlers.
The creation language itself mostly mentions that things were changed or re-made.

Adam was formed from dust. Dust is pretty old.

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You are assuming the word "young" means thousands of years old and "old" means millions or billions of years old. These are your own definitions you made up in your imagination based on what you were taught.

coffee4u said:

Deuteronomy 33 is Mosses blessing the tribes of Israel.

Verse 15 is taken from what Mosses says about Joseph.

13 About Joseph he said:

“May the Lord bless his land
with the precious dew from heaven above
and with the deep waters that lie below;
14 with the best the sun brings forth
and the finest the moon can yield;
15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains
and the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills;
16 with the best gifts of the earth and its fullness
and the favor of him who dwelt in the burning bush.
Let all these rest on the head of Joseph,
on the brow of the prince among his brothers.

It says nothing about mankind being made from previous clay animals.

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The word "Bara" includes a definition of "Re-Made". As you can see "Re-Made"
is fundamental to the creation story. Not to mention the parallel to Spiritual Re-Birth.

accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow,
A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows) -- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress(-ed), (put in) execute(-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, (fight-)ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ((a feast)), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be (warr-)ior, work(-man), yield, use.

setst777 said:

You are assuming the word "young" means thousands of years old and "old" means millions or billions of years old. These are your own definitions you made up in your imagination based on what you were taught.

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I never made either one of those statements.
But you imagine that I did.
But I didn't.

I simply noticed that nothing that is created is described as young.
But the mountains and hills are described as ancient and even everlasting.
And Adam was no baby either.