Female ordination

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TheWhat?

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Perhaps therein lies the problem, just as it is with, to get back OT and apologies for derailing it, the subject of women's ordination. I doubt the liturgy of any church is the same as it was in the first church so there's no valid reason never to make it more meaningful to people by having contemporary songs.

Catholics are divided on the issue. I personally can understand that, in a religion over 2000 years old, some of its adherents would consider it as such, and may take offense to innovations.
 
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Hmm

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Catholics are divided on the issue. I personally can understand that, in a religion over 2000 years old, some of its adherents would consider it as such, and may take offense to innovations.

I can understand it too. I just think it should be challenged (in a kumbaya kind of way!)
 
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hedrick

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That's a good observation.

Just as a supporting example, I did a word search for "ordination" in the nasb. It only occurs in the old testament.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Ordination
While the word ordination doesn't exist, the office of deacon is established in Acts, and is referred to in Rom 16:1 (for a woman, by the way). Acts 6:6 certainly looks like an ordination, though not necessarily with all the later implications of ordination. Bishop is referred to as an office in 1 Tim., as well as a council of elders, who lay hands on Timothy. It's unclear whether these are different offices, and if so what their connection is. Nor are these various signs of authority surrounded with the theology that developed later, I wouldn't identify it too closely with ordination in the Catholic tradition.

Connection with the levitical priesthood is later, as far as I can tell. It's in neither the NT nor Didache, mostly. Didache actually refers to prophets as the high priests, but it doesn't seem that they mean that in the later Catholic sense, since the prophets seem distinct from the bishops and deacons.
 
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Albion

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Whatever Peter meant by that, it doesn't alter the fact that Deborah ruled over the whole country, Esther risked her life by approaching the king without permission to persuade him not to have all the Jews killed and Jael (a woman) killed the commander of the army that had been oppressing the Israelites for 20 years.

The subject here is, however, "female ordination."

It's not about respecting women, women are capable of doing the job, women held other posts of importance in the church, or any of that.
 
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Leaf473

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While the word ordination doesn't exist, the office of deacon is established in Acts, and is referred to in Rom 16:1 (for a woman, by the way). Acts 6:6 certainly looks like an ordination, though not necessarily with all the later implications of ordination. Bishop is referred to as an office in 1 Tim., as well as a council of elders, who lay hands on Timothy. It's unclear whether these are different offices, and if so what their connection is. Nor are these various signs of authority surrounded with the theology that developed later, I wouldn't identify it too closely with ordination in the Catholic tradition.

Connection with the levitical priesthood is later, as far as I can tell. It's in neither the NT nor Didache, mostly. Didache actually refers to prophets as the high priests, but it doesn't seem that they mean that in the later Catholic sense, since the prophets seem distinct from the bishops and deacons.
Good points. The offices of Deacon and bishop, then,
what authorities do they have? What activities can they participate in compared to an unordained person?
 
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Strong in Him

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Sorry, scripture says what it says. Extra biblical sources are not scripture.

Deborah, Huldah, Miriam, Mary Magdalene, Phoebe, Priscilla etc are Scripture - yet you haven't addressed this point.
Jesus speaking to and teaching women, allowing them to preach the word and choosing them to be the first witnesses to the resurrection, are also Scriptural.
 
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Albion

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Good points. The offices of Deacon and bishop, then,
what authorities do they have? What activities can they participate in compared to an unordained person?
Preach the Gospel in a worship service, officiate at marriages in the church, conduct parts of the liturgy, etc., and that's just for the deacon. The bishop's role and jurisdiction, I assume you know.
 
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Strong in Him

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The subject here is, however, "female ordination."

Yes, I know.
But one verse which a lot of people, though maybe not you, use to "disprove" women's ordination is 1 Timothy 2:12 - which apparently is a command from God and shows his will that women should not teach. Someone has recently made that very point. But if God had never wanted a woman to teach or have authority over a man, (although the text says "snatch authority from"), he would never have chose Deborah to be judge over all the nation.
Yet he did.

And 1 Tim 2:12 does not mention ordination. The only place I have found where that is discussed in Exodus 29 - and that ordination service involved the slaughter of animals and the sprinkling of blood.
 
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Strong in Him

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Preach the Gospel in a worship service, officiate at marriages in the church, conduct parts of the liturgy, etc., and that's just for the deacon. The bishop's role and jurisdiction, I assume you know.

Lay people can preach the Gospel in a worship service - and lead the service too. I have been doing that for 14 years; in the Methodist church the LP takes the whole service. We don't have one person leading and another preaching (unless the preacher is in training and their mentor is with them.)
 
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Denying women an equal role in any church affairs, including being priests -- Scripture says we're all priests -- is just sexism. Nothing more, nothing less.

1 Peter 2:9, "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light." No mention of gender here...

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Aside from entrenched doctrinal bigotry, is there even a single reason that women can't serve in any denominational position?
 
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Albion

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Yes, I know.
But one verse which a lot of people, though maybe not you, use to "disprove" women's ordination is 1 Timothy 2:12 - which apparently is a command from God and shows his will that women should not teach. Someone has recently made that very point.
True enough, but that verse is being misunderstood by those people. Unfortunately (I'd say), using it gives proponents of women's ordination something to "shoot down" rather easily, which tends to mask the fact that there are other verses that offer real evidence.

In addition, it might be mentioned that the historic denominations which don't ordain women (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, etc. etc.) do not argue the matter on the basis of that verse in Timothy and these count many more members than the smaller, fundamentalist church bodies which are likely to refer to 1 Timothy 2:12.
 
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Leaf473

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Preach the Gospel in a worship service, officiate at marriages in the church, conduct parts of the liturgy, etc., and that's just for the deacon. The bishop's role and jurisdiction, I assume you know.
I have some idea of the different authorities that bishops have in different groups. The idea of a person governing a region in which they appoint leaders who will put an end to unruly people sounds kind of contrary to the idea of just reading the Bible for yourself and deciding for yourself what it means.

I'm not saying that's the right approach, but if a person doesn't use that approach, they probably look to history.

History has a subjective element to it, a person can look at how it was done in the past and say that's how it ought to be done now,
or they can say there have been changes in history so this can be changed, too.

About preaching the gospel, suppose a woman sings a song that contains the gospel message. If that is allowed, there is now a very large loophole. A woman can preach, she just has to do it in song form.
 
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Religiot

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Scripture doesn't say that.
Yes, it does, viz:

"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: that the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." --Titus 2:1-5

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing (care of children)*, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." --1 Timothy 2:9-15 *Strongs: 3588 and 5042: the care of children

No it isn't; Scripture doesn't say that.

Yes it is and yes it does, viz:

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." --1 Timothy 2:12

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order." --1 Corinthians 14:33-40
Would you say that a woman giving a prophecy - word from the Lord - was teaching? Because that's precisely what the OT prophetesses did, and Paul said that women can prophesy.
Would you say that a woman going into a roomful of men and saying "the tomb is empty, the Lord has risen and you are to go and meet him in Jerusalem", was teaching? Because that's what Mary Magdalene did - and Jesus chose her to do it.
Your first example is simply an equivocation of teaching and prophesying: if your false equivalency were true, then all teachers would be prophets and all prophets teachers, thus the word teaching would simply be another word for prophesying.

Your second example suffers from the same logic, in that it too is another equivocation, but exceedingly absurd; for if announcing were teaching, then what is teaching? and what is announcing?
Boys were considered to have come of age when they had their Bar Mitzvahs.
That is not found in scripture: you should defer to what the scriptures actually say instead of following the traditions of men.
And today, most people come of age when they are 18; unless they have strict parents or live in a part of the world that believes otherwise. At 18 people can vote, drink, get married without permission and would not be classed as kids in a court of law.
Again, you ought defer to the scriptures for the truth about the nature of men, and not the traditions and laws of men.
are you saying that if a 10 year old boy wants to give money to the church, he can't?
Again, you equivocate simple terms in order to maintain your position: required to give is not equal to forbidden from giving.
if you are applying that literally, it talks about shekels and Gerahs. When was the last time you had those in your wallet?
Your objection is without coherence.
So?
That's OT; we're not in the desert.
Sorry that you reject God's word. (Again, your objections are incoherent.)
Sorry but it doesn't; at all.
In your opening statement you said that women can teach boys of 19 or younger - and then made the statement that a boy became a man at the age of 20. If a male is neither a man nor a boy between the ages of 19 and 20, what is he?
Hopefully presenting the scriptures to you will now cause you to turn from the traditions of men to the commands of God. (Sorry that you accept the traditional age of 18 instead of God's command of 20.)
You have just found a few OT passages in which the Lord told Moses that men over the age of 20 should do certain things.
This does not in any way prove that 20 was the age in the NT in which a boy became a man, nor that women could not teach anyone over the age of 20.
I'm sorry that you don't understand: I hope that presenting the scriptures to you will cause you to abandon your way for the Lord's way.

Remember, every man is a liar, unless He is teaching what the Spirit says to the Churches.

EDIT: Type O
 
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hedrick

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Good points. The offices of Deacon and bishop, then,
what authorities do they have? What activities can they participate in compared to an unordained person?
We don't know. From both Paul and Didache, it looks like there was a council of elders ruling local churches. As far as I can tell, there was no formal multi-church authority. Again, both Paul and Didache give the impression of roving apostles and prophets.

It's intriguing to speculate how the elders relate to the bishops. It seems natural to assume that they're the same. Deacons and bishops are often mentioned together in a way to suggest they are the main offices. That would seem to imply the bishop and elder are the same, but it's just an assumption.

I also looked at 1 Tim 3. I'd like someone who knows Greek better than I to verify, but the language doesn't seem gender-specific. The "he" pronouns are all supplied by the translator to make sensible English, and Greek gender might be generic anyway.

Unfortunately I'm not aware of the NT mentioning the names of elders. We have a couple of deacons, but I can't find a specific identification as elder. Some have suggested Aquila and Prisca. That's reasonable, but it's certainly not explicit.

The main gender-specific thing I know in the NT is the 12. The problem with that is that there were 3 key female disciples as well. Note also that there is no explicit calling of 5 of the 12, so unless you want to reduce it to the 7, the fact that there's no call story for the women isn't necessarily significant.

Then 1 Tim 2:12. As far as I'm concerned that either says women shouldn't have authority over their husband, or the exegesis of Gen 2 is so outlandish that we should ignore it.
 
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Albion

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I have some idea of the different authorities that bishops have in different groups. The idea of a person governing a region in which they appoint leaders who will put an end to unruly people sounds kind of contrary to the idea of just reading the Bible for yourself and deciding for yourself what it means.
Oh well, I probably assumed too much in that case.

History has a subjective element to it, a person can look at how it was done in the past and say that's how it ought to be done now,
or they can say there have been changes in history so this can be changed, too.
We're talking about the word of God with this issue, not just the development of history, etc.

About preaching the gospel, suppose a woman sings a song that contains the gospel message. If that is allowed, there is now a very large loophole. A woman can preach, she just has to do it in song form.
You are the second person to reply by saying, in effect, that in their own church services the format accommodates women in the way that is being asked for. Okay, why don't we just say that some churches ordain women and others do not...and let it go at that?

Well, no, you want every other church which has a different kind of leadership, worship, sacramental system, history, etc. etc. to conform to yours.

No, we don't have to do that, and we see it as a matter of what the Bible teaches. You can do things differently, but we already know that, so what are we arguing about?
 
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Leaf473

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We don't know. From both Paul and Didache, it looks like there was a council of elders ruling local churches. As far as I can tell, there was no formal multi-church authority. Again, both Paul and Didache give the impression of roving apostles and prophets.

It's intriguing to speculate how the elders relate to the bishops. It seems natural to assume that they're the same. Deacons and bishops are often mentioned together in a way to suggest they are the main offices. That would seem to imply the bishop and elder are the same, but it's just an assumption.

I also looked at 1 Tim 3. I'd like someone who knows Greek better than I to verify, but the language doesn't seem gender-specific. The "he" pronouns are all supplied by the translator to make sensible English, and Greek gender might be generic anyway.

Unfortunately I'm not aware of the NT mentioning the names of elders. We have a couple of deacons, but I can't find a specific identification as elder. Some have suggested Aquila and Prisca. That's reasonable, but it's certainly not explicit.

The main gender-specific thing I know in the NT is the 12. The problem with that is that there were 3 key female disciples as well. Note also that there is no explicit calling of 5 of the 12, so unless you want to reduce it to the 7, the fact that there's no call story for the women isn't necessarily significant.

Then 1 Tim 2:12. As far as I'm concerned that either says women shouldn't have authority over their husband, or the exegesis of Gen 2 is so outlandish that we should ignore it.
I have some knowledge of greek, I don't know if it's enough to do what you're talking about. We could look at this together, if you want
1 Timothy 3 Interlinear Bible

So, for example, the "anyone" in verse 1 is IPro-NMS, which I believe is: first person pronoun-nominative masculine singular.

But for myself, big picture, I have serious doubts that the Bible is supposed to be used that way in this kind of situation.
(Not that I'm unwilling to go through the grammar part of it, that might be fun :) )

Suppose an abused child is told by their abusive parent not to tell anyone.
If the child obeys the Bible literally, the abuse will continue.
But if they tell a teacher who then notifies the authorities, then there's a good chance the abuse can be stopped.

So an instruction that made sense and worked well in a very different culture and time may not be a good idea today. imo.
 
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Strong in Him

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Yes, it does, viz:

"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: that the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." --Titus 2:1-5

It doesn't say they can only teach boys aged 19 or younger.

Yes it is and yes it does, viz:

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." --1 Timothy 2:12

So why did he allow Priscilla to teach Apollos (an Apostle)?
Why didn't he say that although teaching is a gift of the Spirit it will not be given to a woman?
Why did he say that women are allowed to prophesy? They can't do that in silence.

for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

What law?
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Yes - they were clearly asking questions in the service while the preacher was speaking. Not only that, they were asking questions of the nearest man, instead of waiting til they got home and asking their husbands.
Paul would not have told them not to do this if they weren't doing it.

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

They might well have been commands of the Lord; I can easily imagine Paul praying and asking God how he should deal with this problem in one of his churches.
But that is a long way from saying that God has commanded that no woman should teach or preach the Gospel; ever.
Jesus certainly never taught that, nor showed it by his actions, and he came to show us what God is like and teach us his will. Neither did Paul say this to the church in Rome, where he listed his many female co-workers, Galatia, Philippi, where they had deaconesses, Thessalonica, Colossae or anywhere else.

In the OT, God made very sure that people knew his commands; he told them to write them on their foreheads, teach them to their children and said that those who didn't keep them would be punished. We don't see this apparent "command" from God being taught in the same way - indeed it seems to be so unimportant that even the Son of God didn't mention it.

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order." --1 Corinthians 14:33-40

Exactly.
He tells women to be silent, then he tells them all to covet the gift of prophecy?
Your first example is simply an equivocation of teaching and prophesying: if your false equivalency were true, then all teachers would be prophets and all prophets teachers, thus the word teaching would simply be another word for prophesying.

I'm talking about the fact of women being silent.
Paul has already said that women can prophesy, 1 Corinthians 11:4-10. How does a woman prophesy if she is not allowed to speak?

Your second example suffers from the same logic, in that it too is another equivocation, but exceedingly absurd; for if announcing were teaching, then what is teaching? and what is announcing?

Actually it was a question, not an example.

But the question of how we define teaching is a good one.
Mary was telling the disciples something that they didn't know - something that would change their lives, in fact. The message about meeting Jesus in Jerusalem was an announcement/message. The first bit was the lifechanging Gospel and a personal testimony; it made a huge difference to their faith to know that Jesus was alive.
So supposing a woman writes a book/hymn/poem, those reading it learn something about God and their faith grows? Isn't that teaching? Supposing I write something and someone says, as they did a while back, "I didn't know that" - was I teaching, or passing on what I had read in a commentary?
So if a woman stands in a pulpit and gives a sermon which will probably include information given in commentaries, as well as what God wants them to say; is that teaching?

That is not found in scripture: you should defer to what the scriptures actually say instead of following the traditions of men.

Your opening statement was that women can teach boys under the age of 19 - a statement found nowhere in Scripture.

Again, you ought defer to the scriptures for the truth about the nature of men, and not the traditions and laws of men.

No, society is very different now to what it was then.
It's a fact that people come of age age 18; an age when they can legally vote, drink, get married etc.
If you are saying that our society and lives today have to imitate exactly those laid down in Scripture, you're going to get into trouble. The OT says, for example, that anyone who doesn't rest on the Sabbath, should be stoned to death. Try to apply that and you'll be arrested for murder - which is against the commandments. It also says that anyone caught committing adultery should be stoned to death; if we did that it'd be fairly easy to convert the world; there'd be no one left.

Your objection is without coherence.

No, it's logical.
You quoted that passage because it mentions men over the age of 20, and you want to prove that boys become men when they are 20. I said, "if you are applying that literally, it talks about shekels and Gerahs", which I'm sure you realise we don't have as our currency.
It's inconsistent to quote the Bible because a passage says what you want it to say, and then, when I point out what that passage also says, say "that's not a coherent point."
In other words, you can't pick out bits of Scripture that fit with your agenda, but dismiss other bits.


Sorry that you reject God's word.

Sorry that you don't understand how to read and apply God's word.


Hopefully presenting the scriptures to you

You've presented select Scriptures to me, and ignored others.

will now cause you to turn from the traditions of men to the commands of God.

Nothing of what you have posted is a command of God.

(Sorry that you accept the traditional age of 18 instead of God's command of 20.)

God has not commanded that coming of age is 20.

The Bible was written to, and by, people in different cultures - all these cultures had, and will have, very different rules about coming of age and childhood. None of this changes or affects what God told people at the time.
If you had a son who broke the law at the age of 18; unless you live somewhere that 21 is coming of age, I am sure they would be dealt with by an adult court - however much you tried to insist that he was still a child.

I'm sorry that you don't understand:

Ditto.

I hope that presenting the scriptures to you will cause you to abandon your way for the Lord's way.

I do not have "a way"; I follow the Lord's way.

Remember, every man is a liar, unless He is teaching what the Spirit says to the Churches.

If someone does not read the Scriptures in context, studies to understand what they mean and applies them in the wrong way, they are making the Bible say something that its authors never intended. And if they teach others to do the same, there will be a lot of Scriptural misunderstanding out there.

After all, would you say that:
"then Judas went and hanged himself", Matthew 27:5
"Go and do likewise", Luke 10:37 and
"what you are about to do, do quickly", John 13:27

was a Scriptural doctrine urging, and condoning, suicide?
No? Well why choose a few random OT verses, say that they show the Lord has commanded that boys come of age at 20 and tell me that I clearly don't believe God?

Not to mention the fact that you first made a statement saying that women could teach boys up to the age of 19.
 
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Another open question about the earliest church is who presided over communion. It's natural to assume the elders / bishops. But there is another possibility.

The church we see in 1 Cor and to some extent Didache is a lot closer to a modern pentecostal prayer meeting than modern Presbyterians and Catholics would like. Inspired prophets played a key role. Didache said they are your high priests. Is it possible that prophets were the spiritual leaders, and elders maintained order, were responsible for the budget, etc? If so, it's certainly possible that a prophet presided.
 
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