How to walk in THE Light.

Navair2 said:

According to God's word, is being born again a product of our will, or His will?
What do these describe?
John 1:11-13, James 1:18.


Does Him making us children of God hinge on Him alone, or us cooperating with Him to open our own hearts that have become darkened by sin ( Romans 1:18-32, Ephesians 4:17-19 )?

In other words, do you see that a person's heart is opened by God after we give Him permission to do so, or are we ( as rebellious sinners in desperate need of Him doing that because of our unrepentant attitude and love of sin ) totally dependent upon Him for everything...even our own hearts being so dead in trespasses and sins that He has to do so before we are willing to listen to His words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 )?

Click to expand...

Another huge blow to John Calvin's Unconditional Election is in Jonah chapter 3.

We also learn in the story of Jonah that Jonah said that judgment was going to come upon them in 40 days. Yet, this never happened because the Ninevites did two very important things. They sought forgiveness with God (by crying out to Him), and they forsaken their evil or wicked ways. When God had seen they had forsaken their wickedness, God turned back on the evil that He was going to originally bring upon them. So they did not perish because God decided to Elect them to salvation but because the Ninevites decided to change (Which averted God's judgement). See Jonah 3:1-10.

Navair2 said:

I'm sorry, but I must disagree.
I see that these things are true because of His merciful gift of the new birth on someone that He has decided, in and of Himself, to have mercy and compassion towards ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-24 ).

They are the evidences of God's work in a people, who endure to the end because of their faith in Him;
Which was also a gift given to them and only them.

Click to expand...

You can disagree all you like, but the verses I put forth do not suggest Calvinism in how we are changed beyond our free will to be a certain way that God wants but it suggests that we must continue to cooperate with God of our own free will choice. This is just how it reads. One either accepts the plain meaning of Scripture or they don't accept it. The choice is in their hands. I don't want to change God's Word to fit a doctrine that is from man. I am going to face the Lord some day and I am going to have to give an account to him. The verses I shown about continuing in the faith, continuing in God's grace are things that sounds like something I need to do and it does not sound like Calvinism or how God is forcing me to be a certain way.

I see the problem of Calvinism as a lack of responsibility. They don't want to own up to doing what God is calling them to do. They put the blame on God instead for them to act when God is calling them instead to act. So then they will just wait there and do nothing and not act at all. Therein lies the problem. They believe God must force them to be a certain way, but why would God give us so many commands in the Old and the New Testament if that is the case? Why is God angry at the wicked every day according to Psalms 7:11? Why would God get angry at sin at all if it was His choice to not Elect some individuals? It does not sound logical. Calvinism is about as illogical as believing in a flat Earth. No offense, of course. That's just how I see it. Besides a surface reading of Romans 9 (without regarding the context), a normal reading from Genesis to Revelation does not even remotely sound like Calvinism in the slightest sense.

Navair2 said:

Unless they are truly born again, at which point their love and desires will inherently be towards Him and His commands and not away from those things...
Will they not?

"Wheat" and "tares" my friend ( Matthew 13 ).
One is born of God, the other is not.
One confesses Christ from a heart that has been changed ( making their obedience the evidence of His work in them ),
while the other pays lip service to Him and His ways from a heart filled with desires and lusts that are ultimately the evidence that a change has not been made by the Lord.

They simply "turned over a new leaf", and then returned to their vomit / wallowing in the mire...back to the world and its ways, which is what they really loved.

Spiritually, are there not good trees and bad trees?

God the Father plants the good tree, and prunes it.
The devil "plants" the bad tree and it never does get pruned by their "father";

It never really does produce spiritual fruit that is pleasing to God, who is not their Father.

Click to expand...

Jesus says in Matthew 12,

“Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.” (Matthew 12:33).

Jesus says MAKE the tree good and his fruit good. So that does not sound like God is the one who unconditionally elects us to be a good tree or a bad one. That would make this life meaningless and or without a purpose but to prove that we are only puppets on strings. For if Calvinism was true, then our very conversation in trying to convince each other of the truth of Scripture would not matter because God elects and does not elect and God's will is accomplished no matter what we say or do. Again.... life would be meaningless and this would lead a person to despair (Which is not good).

Bible Highlighter said:

This sounds like John Calvin's Unconditonal Election.

Click to expand...

I agree.
It does sound quite a bit like it, yet this is what Paul preached.

Bible Highlighter said:

Unconditional Election is simply not true.

Click to expand...

I respect your opinion, but find that I must disagree with it.

Bible Highlighter said:

Paul says that those who perish are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth. The verse does not say that they perish because they were not elected by God. Also, the verse says that they (those who perish) MIGHT be saved. In Calvinism: There is no “might be saved.”

Click to expand...

Yes, I see that.
I also see that it is making a statement of fact, and it is describing what all people who are outside of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit will do when presented with God's words.

Bible Highlighter said:

Jesus is giving a conditional statement here in that if they don't repent, they will perish.

Click to expand...

I agree to an extent, but I see it as a declaration of truth and as an evidential statement of fact.
Now, based on Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18 and John 3:19-20, who is going to repent?
Based on Psalms 10:1-11, Psalms 14:1-3 and Psalms 53:1-5, who are the wicked?

Bible Highlighter said:

The thing is that in Calvinism: The Non-Elect cannot repent, and the Elect are never in danger of really ever perishing.

Click to expand...

I don't care what Calvinism teaches, as I'm not talking about John Calvin.
I'm talking about what God's word says.

For the record, I see the Scriptures declaring that those who hate Him will never be willing to repent, while those whom God saves are graciously made willing by His merciful work of the new birth, or "regeneration".

Bible Highlighter said:

So either Jesus was not aware of Calvinistic doctrine or the Calvinist really does not really believe what our Lord actually taught in this particular instance.

Click to expand...

He was not only aware of it, that is what He preached in John 6 and many other places.
For example, see John 17...

He only gives eternal life to as many as the Father has given to Him.

Bible Highlighter said:

Another huge blow to John Calvin's Unconditional Election is in Jonah chapter 3.

Click to expand...

Scripture does not, and never will, contradict itself.
However, if what you see me doing is pitting God's word against itself, then I'm at a loss as to why.

Bible Highlighter said:

One either accepts the plain meaning of Scripture or they don't accept it.

Click to expand...

I agree.
This leads me to ask, what do passages like John 6:29, John 6:37-47, John 6:64-65, John 17:2, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:13-24, Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and Psalm 65:4, for example, plainly say to you?

I also see that based on Matthew 11:27-27, Matthew 13:10-11, Mark 4:11 and John 8:43-47, "the plain meaning of Scripture" isn't plain to those outside of Christ.
In fact, the presence of the Holy Spirit in someone is how they are able to understand His words ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).

Bible Highlighter said:

I see the problem of Calvinism as a lack of responsibility. They don't want to own up to doing what God is calling them to do. They put the blame on God instead for them to act when God is calling them instead to act. So then they will just wait there and do nothing and not act at all. Therein lies the problem. They believe God must force them to be a certain way, but why would God give us so many commands in the Old and the New Testament if that is the case? Why is God angry at the wicked every day according to Psalms 7:11? Why would God get angry at sin at all if it was His choice to not Elect some individuals? It does not sound logical. Calvinism is about as illogical as believing in a flat Earth. No offense, of course. That's just how I see it. Besides a surface reading of Romans 9 (without regarding the context), a normal reading from Genesis to Revelation does not even remotely sound like Calvinism in the slightest sense.

Click to expand...

Is that what you see when you read the Scriptures...the contents of the Law and the pattern of us working to please Him by our own efforts?
I hope not.

Because that is what the Lord came to set His people free from...
Their own efforts at pleasing God, and relying on His efforts on their behalf instead.


That said, I can see that further discussion on this subject will probably be unfruitful, so I will refrain from making any replies to you on this in the future.

May God bless you in many ways, sir.

Bible Highlighter said:

This sounds like John Calvin's Unconditonal Election.

Click to expand...

Navair2 said:

I agree.
It does sound quite a bit like it, yet this is what Paul preached.

Click to expand...

No, the apostle Paul did not preach Calvini's Unconditional Election.
As I already pointed out, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 refutes that line of thinking.
There is no MIGHT be saved in Unconditonal Election. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that those who perish because they received not the love of the truth have the possibility of being saved. In Unconditional Election, God chooses some to be saved and others to not be saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH. It does not say because God did not Elect them. So your belief is not in line with the Bible (2 Thessalonians 2:10). Your simply not reading and believing 2 Thessalonians 2:10 plainly.

I agree to an extent, but I see it as a declaration of truth and as an evidential statement of fact.
Now, based on Romans 1:18-32

Click to expand...

Romans 1:18-32 is referring to the unbelieving Gentile who says there is no God.
Psalms 14 refers to this.

“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.” (Psalms 14:1).

We also have to be careful to place the thinking of fatalism upon what God's Word says when we read it. God hating unbelievers have come to Christ. Those who used to be sodomites have come to Christ and changed their ways. So Romans 1:18-32 is not an absolute or fatalistic. It's a warning. It's like with the story of Jonah. Jonah preached that destruction was going to come upon the Ninevites in 40 days. But did that happen? No. Why? Because God elected them to salvation? No, it was because they repented. They sought forgiveness with God and they forsaked their evil ways. Sure, I imagine there are those who reach a point of no return with God but only God knows the heart of these kinds of people. There comes a point God knows that a person will refuse to repent no matter what God does.

You said:

Romans 3:10-18

Click to expand...

It seems like you are ripping Romans 3:10-18 out of context. The point Paul was making in Romans 3 was that how all have sinned at some point in their past life before coming to Jesus Christ and that we all need to be justified and or saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus. This is not a case for Calvinism in any way.

You said:

John 3:19-20, who is going to repent?

Click to expand...

19 “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (John 3:19-21).

Again, you cannot read fatalism into the Bible. Nowhere does John 3:19-21 say there is no hope ever for the person to never repent ever. For surely we have done evil at one point in time of our lives but that does not mean there was no hope for us. For in our old life of sin, we were not doing truth and coming to the light. I remember arguing that there was no God with my friend before I became a Christian. Back then, I was not doing truth, but I was doing evil and hating the light. That was my condition back in the past before I came to senses and accepted Jesus as my Savior.

I am not going to address the rest of the verses because you are reading the Bible with Calvinistic glasses. Just read the Bible without any bias and do not assume fatalism upon the text. Yes, I am aware there is a group called the wicked. This is a group of individuals that God knows in who will refuse to repent in this life after being given chances to repent. For God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Most Calvinists believe 2 Peter 3:9 is referring to the Elect, but if the Elect are guaranteed salvation from the beginning of the world, then they were never truly in danger of ever perishing. So 2 Peter 3:9 is an open call to all people to receive the free gift of eternal life.

Navair2 said:

Is that what you see when you read the Scriptures...the contents of the Law and the pattern of us working to please Him by our own efforts?
I hope not.

Because that is what the Lord came to set His people free from...
Their own efforts at pleasing God, and relying on His efforts on their behalf instead.

Click to expand...

This is a huge problem I see in Christianity today. In certain cases, they have a backwards belief that is contrary to what the Word of God says. Up is down and down is up. Bitter for sweet, etc. (See: Isaiah 5:20).

“And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.” (1 John 3:22).

“Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.” (John 9:31).

“The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.” (Proverbs 15:29).

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” (1 John 3:7).

“That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;” (Colossians 3:10).

18 “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
19 But verily God hath heard me; he hath attended to the voice of my prayer.” (Psalms 66:18-19).

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13).

“Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (Hebrews 13:21).

“Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:” (2 Thessalonians 1:11).

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.” (2 Timothy 3:1-9).