The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

Douggg said:

Dispenationalism is a man-made system by which to understand the bible. I am not a dispensationalist, nor covenant theology.

Why are you being so frantic? Please settle down.

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Let me try and make this easier for you. Show us anywhere in Scripture that teaches a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period of years followed by a 3rd coming of Christ?

sovereigngrace said:

Let me try and make this easier for you. Show us anywhere in Scripture that teaches a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period of years followed by a 3rd coming of Christ?

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Well, I would not call Jesus's return a "3rd coming", but what you are asking for I explain in my post #33 in
1,335 days.

Douggg said:

Well, I would not call Jesus's return a "3rd coming", but what is you are asking for I explain in my post #33 in
1,335 days.

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Again, more avoidance! This is why many Christians today are embracing a climactic return of Christ, taught throughout the Word. It lets the Bible speak for itself rather than manipulate it to support false doctrine or man-made faulty charts.

Douggg said:

I am anytime rapture view. The pretrib view is different.
View attachment 301725

Take a look at my post #450.

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From what I see, your view is "rapture anytime before antichrist".

That's classic pretrib.

sovereigngrace said:

Again, more avoidance!

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You had ask me to show by scripture the rapture, followed by the great tribulation, followed by Jesus's return. I did not avoid, but gave you the post #33 and link to the thread the post is in.
1,335 days.

jgr said:

From what I see, your view is "rapture anytime before antichrist".

That's classic pretrib.

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no, that is not what is on the chart. Anytime between today and the day that the Antichrist commits the transgress of desolation act in 2Thessalonians2:4.



Differently, here is the pre-trib view...

Timtofly said:

Why strive over an historical fact?

Is your claim there was no divide ever? Abraham's seed has always been Gentile, and never distinguished as Israel after God changed Jacob's name? If Israel is still Gentile, then there was no dispensation that recognized Israel as being separated from the Gentiles.

The church is still Gentile and earthly as well. There is no distinction between the church and the world, if that is your contention about what dispensationalism is.

Dispensations are when God saw Israel as separated from the world, and now God sees the church as separated from the world. The point is the separation from the world. In the OT is was physical and outward. In the NT it is spiritual and inward.

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God forbade racialization in OT Israel. (Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48; Exodus 12:49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22)

Christ forbids racialization in the NT Church. (John 10:16; Romans 10:12; Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11; Ephesians 2:14-16)

Why does dispensationalism espouse racialization?

Douggg said:

The church is nowhere in Ezekiel 38-39.

It is all about Israel. The house of Israel.

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Yes it is; the House of Israel, the people Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24 Who are now the faithful Christian sheep, the ones that Ezekiel 34:11-16 says He will gather into all of the holy Land.

NOT the House of Judah, who have a very different outcome. Luke 19:27

You, like James Morris and the many others who grip onto the false teaching of a rapture removal of the Church, will be very shocked when the Lord does take action and when we do gather into our heritage of the holy Land, you will be shamed as Ezekiel 39:26 says.

Douggg said:

David, while you are right that the church doesn't fit anywhere in Ezekiel 38-39, you have Ezekiel 39:17-22 wrong as being the destruction of Gog's army.

It is not the destruction of Gog's army in v17-22. Gog is not mentioned any more past Ezekiel 39:15-16, Hamongog in v15, which those verses conclude the Gog/Magog event.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 is 7 years after the destruction of Gog's army in the Gog/Magog event.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon event, against the nations that assemble to make war on Jesus. Ezekiel 39:17-20 is Revelation 19:17-18.

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Revelation 19:17-18

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

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You and I have discussed this in the past, Douggg. Your interpretation has them burning weapons for 7 years, where half of that 7 years would have to be taking place during the 2nd half of the 70th week, thus during the great trib. My interpretation has them burning the weapons post the 2nd coming, which also seems to fit with the following.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


I don't know of any Premils that place the time of Isaiah 2:4 before the 2nd coming. Premils place it during the thousand years, as do Amils, except Amils have the thousand years occurring in this age, thus they also have Isaiah 2:4 occurring in this age. This alone undeniably contradicts what Jesus said in Matthew 24 if what He said there is supposed to be meaning when Isaiah 2:4 is meaning.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


What does Isaiah 2:4 say again? they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

What did Jesus say again? And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars---For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom

And these both are supposed to be true at the same time, that even though nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more---ye shall still hear of wars and rumours of wars--For nation shall still rise against nation, and kingdom still against kingdom, regardless? Where I come from something like that is a called a contradiction if both are supposed to be true at the same time.

And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years(Ezekiel 39:9)----and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more(Isaiah 2:4). This to me seems to square, not contradict, when combining these passages like such.

Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

and the slain of the LORD shall be many(Isaiah 66:15)---and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land(Ezekiel 39:11-12)----And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me(Isaiah 66:24). Is anyone going to argue that Isaiah 66:15 does not involve the 2nd coming? I'm certain Preterists would, but not everyone around here is a Preterist, though.

If Isaiah 66:15 says that the slain of the LORD shall be many, how does it make sense that what follows, is not this---and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land? Is one going to argue, that when God executes judgment on Gog and all his multitude, that the slain will be few rather than many?

Douggg said:

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus having returned to this earth. And it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

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Exactly. Now if you would only realize that that is meaning the judgment on Gog and all of his multitude.

DavidPT said:

Exactly. Now if you would only realize that that is meaning the judgment on Gog and all of his multitude.

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The G/M attack and Armageddon are different wars and have no relation to each other.
The G/M attack is at least 7+ years before the Return, when the Lord's people are living quietly, Ezekiel 38:11 and Armageddon is at the Return. Revelation 19:17-21

DavidPT said:

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

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You also confuse the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth seal event, the Psalm 83 fulfilment, with those 2 later wars.

DavidPT said:

You and I have discussed this in the past, Douggg. Your interpretation has them burning weapons for 7 years, where half of that 7 years would have to be taking place during the 2nd half of the 70th week, thus during the great trib. My interpretation has them burning the weapons post the 2nd coming, which also seems to fit with the following.

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It is not just the burning of the weapons instead of trees they would have normally used, it is that verses 17-20 are the Armageddon event. And that Jesus makes his presence among the heathen who he will have just judged.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

The pre-condition to the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 38 is that Israel is living at ease, not in great tribulation like what will be at the end of the 7 years when Jesus returns. So the Gog/Magog event is not at the end of the 7 years.

Isaiah 2:4, on the other hand, I will agree is after Jesus returns.

DavidPT said:

Exactly. Now if you would only realize that that is meaning the judgment on Gog and all of his multitude.

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If you would only realize that the pre-condition to Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 38 is that Israel is living in peace - not in great tribulation.

Israel living at ease, then Gog/Magog, then 7 years of Daniel 9:27 begin, then the great tribulation, then Armageddon, ending with Jesus's return.

jgr said:

God forbade racialization in OT Israel. (Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48; Exodus 12:49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22)

Christ forbids racialization in the NT Church. (John 10:16; Romans 10:12; Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11; Ephesians 2:14-16)

Why does dispensationalism espouse racialization?

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Who are these alledged racist? I never posted anything about your alledged racist.

Timtofly said:

Who are these alledged racist? I never posted anything about your alledged racist.

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Why do dispensationalists espouse racialization?

Douggg said:

It is not just the burning of the weapons instead of trees they would have normally used, it is that verses 17-20 are the Armageddon event. And that Jesus makes his presence among the heathen who he will have just judged.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

The pre-condition to the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 38 is that Israel is living at ease, not in great tribulation like what will be at the end of the 7 years when Jesus returns. So the Gog/Magog event is not at the end of the 7 years.

Isaiah 2:4, on the other hand, I will agree is after Jesus returns.


If you would only realize that the pre-condition to Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 38 is that Israel is living in peace - not in great tribulation.

Israel living at ease, then Gog/Magog, then 7 years of Daniel 9:27 begin, then the great tribulation, then Armageddon, ending with Jesus's return.

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Though I do understand your points and what leads you to conclude what you do, If we go by your interpretation rather than the text, some of the following is what we would have to conclude.

Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.


A main point in the above being this---Thus shall they cleanse the land.

But then, a few years later, as in maybe 7 years later, the same land that was painstakingly cleansed, it is once again saturated with dead bodies all over the place, meaning Ezekiel 39:17-20. Who cleans it up this time, then? It can't be meaning anyone in Ezekiel 39:9-16 since you already have that being applied to an earlier judgment.

Something like this is not much different to some Amils in some regards, if one is going to go by your interpretation, because just like Amils, meaning Amils that agree Ezekiel 39:17-20 parallels some of Revelation 19(and there are some Amils that agree it does), you too have have no Scripture to show what becomes of the mess with all the dead bodies lying around because of the judgment recorded in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

In the case involving these particular Amils, they apparently ignore and disregard Ezekiel 39:9-16 altogether since it requires more time after the 2nd coming in order to fulfill these things. It might be different if there wasn't Ezekiel 39:11-16 recorded in this chapter. Maybe then there might not be any Scripture telling us what eventually happens to the mess post the judgment recorded in Ezekiel 39:17-20. Yet, Ezekiel 39:11-16 is recorded in this chapter, thus no valid reason to not apply it post the judgment recorded in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

DavidPT said:

But then, a few years later, as in maybe 7 years later, the same land that was painstakingly cleansed, it is once again saturated with dead bodies all over the place, meaning Ezekiel 39:17-20. Who cleans it up this time, then? It can't be meaning anyone in Ezekiel 39:9-16 since you already have that being applied to an earlier judgment.

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The entire world will need to be restored at the end of the great tribulation. It will be by Jesus.

Douggg said:

The entire world will need to be restored at the end of the great tribulation. It will be by Jesus.

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Do you then, as Amils do, think the taking down of the beast and it's armies, is not meaning a local event, but is meaning a global event, thus dead bodies all over the entire planet rather than in just a particular region?

DavidPT said:

Do you then, as Amils do, think the taking down of the beast and it's armies, is not meaning a local event, but is meaning a global event, thus dead bodies all over the entire planet rather than in just a particular region?

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The great tribulation will impact the entire planet. That the entire planet will have to be restored.

It is not just dead bodies littering the planet, but erosion where there was once greenery, the dust bowl planet, and the waters all poisoned, the stench of dead fish and mammals, destroyed pummeled cities by the hail, and destroyed infrastructure dams, bridges, etc.

Douggg said:

It is not just dead bodies littering the planet, but erosion where there was once greenery, the dust bowl planet, and the waters all poisoned, the stench of dead fish and mammals, destroyed pummeled cities by the hail, and destroyed infrastructure dams, bridges, etc.

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I agree with the points you raise. The question is, is that something God will do without human aid and will fix in a snap of a finger, or is that something that might involve some time to do? Some positions, such as Amil, apparently feel that God will fix these things in a snap a finger, or at least within the same 24 hour period He returns. One thing that seems obvious though, it would be during the regeneration when these things are being fixed. If that involves some time to fix all these things, and also involves humans aiding in the fixing of some of these things, well, Ezekiel 39:9-16 involves both time and humans aiding in fixing some of these things. One of the things needing fixing would be to do away with all the weapons of war, which take 7 years to accomplish, not to mention the land needing cleansed after the slaughter because of the judgment recorded in Ezekiel 39:17-20, and that humans are involved in fixing these things as recorded in verses 11-16, but that you disagree that any of that involves Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Wanted to add the following thoughts while it's still fresh in my mind.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Since this is a future event, no one should assume that this battle is being fought with literal horses. Horses would likely be meaning weapons of war, as in modern day weapons, in the case of the beast and it's armies, as if these weapons would be of any benefit against Christ and His armies to begin with. The same has to be true in Ezekiel 39:9 if any of that involves the 21st century, that literal ancient weaponry is not meant, but that modern 21th century weaponry is meant. This causes a problem with your interpretation because you have them destroying all of these weapons for 7 years leading up to the 2nd coming, yet, in Revelation 19, modern day weaponry is still being used, thus hasn't been fully destroyed within 7 years like the text in Ezekiel 39 indicates gets accomplished, unless one wants to suggest literal horses are actually meant in Revelation 19 after all.

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

DavidPT said:

I agree with the points you raise. The question is, is that something God will do without human aid and will fix in a snap of a finger, or is that something that might involve some time to do?

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I don't know. But I lean toward the restoration to be quickly, like the six days of creation.

DavidPT said:

The same has to be true in Ezekiel 39:9, if any of that involves the 21st century, that literal ancient weaponry is not meant, but that modern 21th century weaponry is meant. This causes a problem with your interpretation because you have them destroying all of these weapons for 7 years leading up to the 2nd coming, yet, in Revelation 19, modern day weaponry is still being used, thus hasn't been fully destroyed within 7 years like the text in Ezekiel 39 indicates gets accomplished, unless one wants to suggest literal horses are actually meant in Revelation 19 after all.

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No, I don't think literal horses. Modern military equipment runs off diesel. (I served in the military, 3 years in the artillery, way back in the 1970's.) The diesel could be used for cooking and heat. And modern armies eat canned rations which could provide food for the Jews who have fled into the mountains when the abomination of desolation is set up, taking from the military vehicles, i.e. tanks, personal carriers, etc that will be littering the landscape.