The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

sovereigngrace · Jul 3, 2021

Biblewriter said:
You falsely claimed that the scriptures explicitly say what you are claiming they say. that is simply not true. An INTERPRETATION of the MEANING of a scripture is NOT what it EXPLICITLY says. You are INTERPRETING some New Testament passages to MEAN what they NEVER, even ONCE, actually SAY. And you are using YOUR INTERPRETATION of these scriptures as a lame excuse for denying what OTHER scriptures EXPLICITLY say, in PLAIN, CLEAR words.

You can dance around this HARD FACT all day, but you CANNOT change it for it is UNQUESTIONABY true.

Stop shouting and clam down. You have yet to address the multiple passages that jgr has presented that forbids your error. Until you do we can only conclude you are fighting with Scripture.

sovereigngrace · Jul 3, 2021

Biblewriter said:
The fact that SOME claim to be Jews, and are not, does not change the HARD FACT that, "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:28-29)

That is natural Jews. We are spiritual Jews. Both Philippians 3 and Romans 2 purposely and significantly restrict the terms “the circumcision” and “Jew” to those today that are “in the spirit” or pneuma. Only those who are born again of the Spirit of God can fit the criteria. Anyway, there are (and have only ever been), two types of people on this earth, those that are (1) “in the flesh” and those who are “in the Spirit.” The Word of God makes clear: “if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” (Romans 8:9). New Testament teaching repeatedly, and powerfully, blows apart any form of Jewish nationalism.

sovereigngrace · Jul 3, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Not even ONE of these scriptures says that the ancient promises were revoked, or even anything remote;y suggesting that idea.

Instead of always voicing your opinion. Could you actually address the sacred text being presented? Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered.”

You want us to move from the realization back to the shadow.
You want us to move from the perfect back to the imperfect.
You want us to move from the all-sufficient back to the inadequate.
You want us to move from the spiritual back to the physical.
You want us to move from the internal back to the external.
You want us to move from the supernatural back to the natural.
You want us to move from the eternal back to the temporary.
You want us to move from the heavenly back to the earthly.
You want us to move from the international back to the national.
You want us to move from the unconditional back to the conditional.

Biblewriter · Jul 3, 2021

jgr said:
They are racializing God, His Work, and His Word, which is a prime characteristic of dispensationalism.

The enemies of the truth OFTEN use the accusation of RACISM, whenever all else fails. But GOD'S answer to your cavils is:

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Romans 9:14-20

JM · Jul 3, 2021

Biblewriter said:
The fact that SOME claim to be Jews, and are not, does not change the HARD FACT that, "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:28-29)

ths elect hath obtained...

It's right in the text!

Take off your Dispey Zionist blinders.

jgr · Jul 3, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Not even ONE of the scriptures you have quoted in your latest series of posts says that the ancient promises were revoked, or even anything remotely suggesting that idea.

Instead, the NEW Testament says the very opposite, that they are IRREVOCABLE.

Again he HARD FACT remains, that you are using YOUR INTERPRETATION of the MEANINGS of a relatively small number of scriptures as a lame excuse to deny the EXPLICIT STATEMENTS of a far larger number of scriptures.

Your caterwauling changes nothing.

Romans 11
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable).

This has been addressed many times previously, and here it is again for those seeking the Scriptural declarations.

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts were not, and are not, bestowed upon those of Paul's countrymen who are enemies of the gospel.

They are bestowed exclusively upon God's Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable (i.e. without repentance).

To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

God's calling was not, and is not, directed to those of Paul's countrymen who are enemies of the gospel.

It is directed exclusively to God's Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable (i.e. without repentance).

Biblewriter · Jul 3, 2021

JM said:
ths elect hath obtained...

It's right in the text!

Take off your Dispey Zionist blinders.

THAT was from Romans 11:29, and was SPECIFICALLY spoken about those who currently "are enemies for the sake of the gospel," but are yet "beloved for the sake of the fathers." (Romans 11:28)

Biblewriter · Jul 3, 2021

jgr said:
Romans 11
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable).

This has been addressed many times previously, and here it is again for those seeking the Scriptural declarations.

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts were not, and are not, bestowed upon those of Paul's countrymen who are enemies of the gospel.

They are bestowed exclusively upon God's Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable (i.e. without repentance).

To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

God's calling was not, and is not, directed to those of Paul's countrymen who are enemies of the gospel.

It is directed exclusively to God's Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable (i.e. without repentance).

Your denials are TOTALLY ineffective. Romans 11:29, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." was SPECIFICALLY spoken of the hardened Jews who "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers." Romans 11:28

Any and ALL attempts to deny this are irrational, and are based on sheer refusal to believe what God has EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said.

keras · Jul 3, 2021

In the book ‘Why me', by Jacob Damkani, he tells of his synagogue experience’s:
He was there one Sabbath when the Huftarah passage read aloud was Jeremiah 2:4-15...which an indictment against Israel.

He looked at the reader and thought that if it was actually Jeremiah saying: Is Israel a slave.....why have we become a prey to the nations? And he thought that if we Jews are truly the chosen of God, then we should have illuminated the whole world and all the peoples would have gathered to us for the true Word of God.

But if Jeremiah did proclaim these words of verse 8 in Israel today: Those who handle the Law know Me not.....he would be arrested and imprisoned!

The reader, in his snow white prayer shawl, reverently kissed the scroll, left the platform and the people sang Shir Hukkavod and Adon Olam, as they completed their religious obligations for the week.

They took no cognizance of the message whatsoever, their worship is by rote and is merely for show and social reasons that most Jews attend services.
As it is for a lot of Christians, today as well. Isaiah 58:1-5

jgr · Jul 3, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Your denials are TOTALLY ineffective. Romans 11:29, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." was SPECIFICALLY spoken of the hardened Jews who "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers." Romans 11:28

Any and ALL attempts to deny this are irrational, and are based on sheer refusal to believe what God has EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said.

False. The "election" are referenced in earlier in Romans 11:5,7 and are defined, separate, apart, and distinct from "enemies of the gospel". There are two separate and different "theys", two separate groups, in Romans 11:28.

Paul earlier draws Old Testament parallels to enemies of the gospel in Romans 11:3, and to the election in Romans 11:4. There, they are two separate and distinct groups. Applying dispen (il)logic, Romans 11:3 would represent the election!

The "gifts and calling" are irrevocably for the New Testament election, i.e. the Church, exclusively, as the numerous Scriptures which I've cited attest.

To claim that "enemies of the gospel" are the "election" is the epitome of risibility and absurdity.

That does not, of course, stop dispens from attempting to claim it.

sovereigngrace · Jul 3, 2021

Biblewriter said:
THAT was from Romans 11:29, and was SPECIFICALLY spoken about those who currently "are enemies for the sake of the gospel," but are yet "beloved for the sake of the fathers." (Romans 11:28)

· To arrive at the ‘corporate position’ one has to totally ignore Paul’s overriding message of two types of Israeli in Romans 9–11 (and in the whole book of Romans). Throughout, he is constantly differentiating between Israelis that are blind and Israelis that are elect.
· They also have to ignore the whole context and setting of Paul’s comments “all Israel shall be saved.” He uses the phrase immediately after demonstrating that the elect Israeli good olive only holds those Jews that are of the household of “faith.”
· As Paul expands his argument on the salvation of his own kinsmen, and tells us that all Israel shall be saved, he does it within the vital context of a faithful believing remnant of Israelis. Many fail to see that Paul has already established that the believing element within the overall physical nation of Israel is “a remnant.”
· Some also seem to overlook Paul’s supporting evidence from the Old Testament Scripture (in Isaiah 59:20) that shows that the people in view are a spiritual segment of the overall whole who put their faith in Christ and repent of their sin.

sovereigngrace · Jul 3, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Your denials are TOTALLY ineffective. Romans 11:29, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." was SPECIFICALLY spoken of the hardened Jews who "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers." Romans 11:28

Any and ALL attempts to deny this are irrational, and are based on sheer refusal to believe what God has EXPLICITLY and REPEATEDLY said.

Not true! That is why you have to avoid so many rebuttals.

Romans 11:7-10 corresponds, “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded [Gr. poroo – hardened]. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear

unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”

This is actually saying the opposite to what many Premillennialists argue. In fact, it is actually saying what is says: “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.” In short, salvation or favor with God has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity. It is not about being an Israelite; it is nothing to do with racial status or nationality; it is all to do with being chosen – namely being one of God’s elect remnant. This is the only means of favor with God. This spiritual family are the true Israel and the only accepted people of God. To be of the “election” one has to have a real personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.

Paul’s very statement “the rest were blinded” and his detailed description of the awful plight of such foolish Jews, supports the view that there are two distinct companies of Israeli in view – one being a band of “blinded” Israelis, the other a band of enlightened “elect” Israelis. This passage again reinforces Paul’s thought that the whole nation is not blinded, rather “blindness in part is happened to Israel” or ‘part of Israel is blind’. Whilst a large section of the nation has manifestly rejected Christ since the cross, and are therefore spiritually deceived by the devil (2 Corinthians 4:4), there is a small chosen assembly of Israelis throughout history that have eyes to see and ears to hear, who belong to the good olive tree. These believers are the faithful Israeli congregation (ekklesia) in both testatments that are transformed through faith in Messiah, and are the redeemed of God.

Romans 11:28: “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”

It is “the election” that are saved. They are the remnant that belongs to God – His favor rests upon them. The rest are blind and are of their father the devil.

keras · Jul 3, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
These believers are the faithful Israeli congregation (ekklesia) in both testatments that are transformed through faith in Messiah, and are the redeemed of God.

Those Jews, of the House of Judah; are the ones who will join with their Christian brethren; the House of Israel and come together in all of the holy land. Jeremiah 50:4-5, Ezekiel 39:21-29, Romans 9:24-26

A vast company, from every tribe [of Israel[ every race, nation and language. John sees them in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9

sovereigngrace · Jul 3, 2021

keras said:
Those Jews, of the House of Judah; are the ones who will join with their Christian brethren; the House of Israel and come together in all of the holy land. Jeremiah 50:4-5, Ezekiel 39:21-29, Romans 9:24-26

You start off biblical and then add on your own misinterpretation to support your beliefs: "and come together in all of the holy land." This is not going to happen. The holy land is where you find God's people throughout the world, not in Palestine.

Douggg · Jul 3, 2021

The end times prophecies in the bible focusing on Israel is not an argument against the validity of Christianity.

And the validity of Christianity does not nullify the end times prophecies in the bible focusing on Israel.

James is not denying the validity of Christianity. He is pointing out the end times prophecies in the bible require the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel be present in the end times nation of Israel.

sovereigngrace · Jul 3, 2021

Douggg said:
The end times prophecies in the bible focusing on Israel is not an argument against the validity of Christianity.

And the validity of Christianity does not nullify the end times prophecies in the bible focusing on Israel.

James is not denying the validity of Christianity. He is pointing out the end times prophecies in the bible require the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel be present in the end times nation of Israel.

Please quote your biblical evidence instead of your ongoing opinions.

Douggg · Jul 3, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Please quote your biblical evidence instead of your ongoing opinions.

Ezekiel 38-39 is the biblical evidence.

sovereigngrace · Jul 3, 2021

Douggg said:
Ezekiel 38-39 is the biblical evidence.

You are obsessed with Ezekiel 38-39 and interpret the rest of Scripture through your opinion of these. Amillennialists interpret each passage in the light of the consistent teach of all Scripture. This forbids Premil.

Where is the NT Church mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39?
Where is a rapture of the NT Church in Ezekiel 38 and 39?
Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39?
Where is a 3rd coming in Ezekiel 38 and 39?

Douggg · Jul 3, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You are obsessed with Ezekiel 38-39 and interpret the rest of Scripture through your opinion of these. Amillennialists interpret each passage in the light of the consistent teach of all Scripture. This forbids Premil.

Where is the NT Church mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39?
Where is a rapture of the NT Church in Ezekiel 38 and 39?
Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39?
Where is a 3rd coming in Ezekiel 38 and 39?

The issue is the end times prophecies in the bible require the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel be present in the end times nation of Israel.

You ask for bible evidence. I gave you biblical evidence.

sovereigngrace · Jul 3, 2021

Douggg said:
The issue is the end times prophecies in the bible require the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel be present in the end times nation of Israel.

You ask for bible evidence. I gave you biblical evidence.

That is not true! You made a sweeping claim and once again ducked around the questions. That is common amongst Dispies.

The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

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