UK Methodists support gay marriage.

GallagherM said:

That would almost seem as though having authority over a persons life; that is something far away from me. God is the most ultimate authority over all of mankind. So you really do believe that @Albion : If that is the case we should all be brining up everyone sex life in church and talking about it. Would that not be the right action to take if this is the case?

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No. And it's not at all predictable that, if certain sexual behavior is wrong, that going to the extreme and hating all people who engage in such acts, being sure that the sermon brings up everyone's sex life each week, and other such stuff must be the response.

Would it not be more reasonable to continue to just share and teach the Word of God and allow people to make decisions for themselves?

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Reasonable? Maybe. That would be one way to approach the matter, but then what would be the point of Christianity if what Christ taught didn't matter or because someone in the crowd didn't want to hear that X is the way God taught us to live? You cannot very well be a Christian without Christ.

Tellyontellyon said:

I get confused about this aspect too.. People on here saying salvation is by faith alone... but then saying that certain 'works' are in-fact important for salvation?
What then does 'faith alone' add up to? Jesus died for some sins, many that were also called abominations, but there were some sins he didn't die for?
I'm confused.

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Jesus died for all of the sins, but only the sins of the believers died with Jesus.
Jesus' blood is good enough to cover every sin of every sinner, but many reject Christ, therefore they are still in sin.

Tellyontellyon said:

I get confused about this aspect too.. People on here saying salvation is by faith alone... but then saying that certain 'works' are in-fact important for salvation?

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Did they say "for salvation?" If so, they are mistaken.

Another Church bites the dust.

As regards to the OP. The Church and doctrine should never be beholden to popular opinion. What it's job is, is to guard the deposit of faith and nothing else. If the goal is to be massively popular Christianity should just dissolve itself and cease to exist.

Tellyontellyon said:

I get confused about this aspect too.. People on here saying salvation is by faith alone... but then saying that certain 'works' are in-fact important for salvation?
What then does 'faith alone' add up to? Jesus died for some sins, many that were also called abominations, but there were some sins he didn't die for?
I'm confused.

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Jesus died for our sins, but this isn't an excuse to keep sinning. We are to reject sin and live righteously in the new life that God gave us as Christians.

GallagherM said:

I will agree though what you said about not willfully sinning after the acknowledgement of the truth; but some people just are attracted to whom they are attracted to. Sorry, that is just a fact.

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So what? That's a serious question, so what is your answer?

We wont go around hating others willingly for the heck of it; and we will try to be understanding and love them regardless of what they have done and love them for who they are with no judgement, mercy. Mercy is so wonderful.

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Okay. If that is your thinking now, I can only conclude that you have decided that there is good and there is evil even if Christ died to pay for our sins, which is essentially what I have been saying here.

Tellyontellyon said:

I get confused about this aspect too.. People on here saying salvation is by faith alone... but then saying that certain 'works' are in-fact important for salvation?
What then does 'faith alone' add up to? Jesus died for some sins, many that were also called abominations, but there were some sins he didn't die for?
I'm confused.

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Faith is not an empty acceptance of a neutral proposition. It is the deeply held conviction that Christ lived a sinless life, died on the cross, and rose from the grave in order to rescue us from a condemnation that we had wrought for ourselves. It is the complete and total submission, the putting to death of the old life and rising into a new life. If you suddenly discovered that your favorite food was excrement, would you continue to eat it?

Tellyontellyon,

This is a bit long had a bit of wine; anyway if you read this hopefully it helps understand my position personally. Thank you for your time.

I am glad you even made the topic friend, and glad that that I was able to get my opinion out there.

Listen; Traditions of men that people hold on to may make it seem that some sins are worst than others but all sin is the same : which homosexuality is a sin according to the bible as I have mentioned many times, hate is even considered murder though most people do not really accept that or believe it for that matter...

Faith alone in Christ Jesus is all that is needed, and if a person is a believer their heart will be changed, they will share their faith with other and how that of the Father through Christ changed their life. Anything good that comes from any Christian believer is from God, and for the most part many Christians who seek God seek to worship God in spirit and in truth.


Yes that is a bit of information there; the thing is all people still sin (we still live in this body of flesh); either they sin towards God by whatever they do that makes them have this sense of guilt inside in where they turn back to him and cry out to him for help, or they sin by harming their neighbor by saying something mean and hateful towards them and they again have sense of guilt in their mind because of what they do.

Christians normally do strive to love God, and love neighbour (no matter who they may be, or what they may have done), at least inwardly love from the heart, and are forgiving and merciful.

Jesus died for all of sins... once on the cross for all people... some people try to categorize one sin over the other which is not going to work in the case of what the Lord Jesus Christ Himself had done.

I fixed the above ^ to Christians normally do strive to love God and love neighbour

Tellyontellyon said:

I get confused about this aspect too.. People on here saying salvation is by faith alone... but then saying that certain 'works' are in-fact important for salvation?
What then does 'faith alone' add up to? Jesus died for some sins, many that were also called abominations, but there were some sins he didn't die for?
I'm confused.

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You are not alone in your confusion. Some Christians seem confused over this issue as well.

Tellyontellyon said:

I get confused about this aspect too.. People on here saying salvation is by faith alone... but then saying that certain 'works' are in-fact important for salvation?
What then does 'faith alone' add up to? Jesus died for some sins, many that were also called abominations, but there were some sins he didn't die for?
I'm confused.

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About your question "What then does "faith alone" add up to?" is a good question. It might get beaten to death as a separate thread, but it's worth asking. For an authoritative answer it would be good to look at Luke 18.18 or Matthew 19.16 where Jesus, who died for our sins, answered the question. I'm curious why, of all places, the church would consider having a different authority than Jesus. And He points us clearly to the Ten Commandments written by God's finger.

About how faith fits in, this is how I see it, in case it is helpful to you. Faith is believing and doing what God tells us works, and without faith (believing God) it is indeed impossible to please God as it says in Hebrews But if you look at it, "faith alone" would lead to obeying what He says - but the rub is actually reading it for yourself to know what He said. It's actually not a faith versus works question after all.

In more than one place in the Bible sin is described as the transgression of the Law that God gave. Like a prior post pointed out, homosexuality is described as a sin and the pile of ashes left from Sodom and Gomorrah deserve a close look. Why might it be a sin? I can think of reasons supported by history, but my main reason for asking is to have you question whether you (or any reader) first believes God acts in love towards us or not and whether He changes His mind about what He tells us works and doesn't work - or not. None of us has authority to define sin. God alone defines sin by His standards, and none of us have the authority excuse habitual sin. In other words, we need to realize that we don't imagine God in our image, and if we are to believe Him, we are required to function within His precepts. If I believe that He told us what works for our good, which is what He said, then while I may not have a full explanation that convinces me, the simple fact that He said so will cause me to restrain myself to stay within His definition of acceptable behavior, like the 3 Hebrew boys faced with bowing to an idol or being thrown into the furnace. The choice was theirs, and the choice is ours. The choice was Peter's and the choice was Judas'. The consequences were based on the what they did, which sprang out of what they believed. It's the same for us.

I have friends who choose differently than I do, and like every other human I find sin a struggle, so I'm not into bashing anyone. At the same time, I don't have the authority to define or excuse sin - whether they do it or I do it. The Law defines where the lines fall so we don't have to be unclear about what is or isn't sin. In general, all unrighteousness is sin, but the Law helps nail down that broad definition for those of us who like more definition, and Jesus fleshed out a sinless life so we have His example of obedience even to death on the stake for our sins. Repenting (turning around, turning to God instead of away from disobeying Him) is the option I hope we consider when sin becomes an issue.

It does not really surprise me that the Methodists or any others in the UK would approve such a thing, and by that gain the approval of the world. However, it is not a Christian principle that "we are what we repeatedly do" (to quote the not-at-all ancient aphorism often misattributed to Aristotle), but rather that we are what we are made to become, through the struggle for the inward man (cf. Romans 7). You literally cannot have that if instead you seek acceptance and celebration of the very things you should be fighting. And that's not an indictment of 'gay' individuals for 'being gay' (note scare quotes; this is a worldly anthropology that is itself at odds with Christianity), nor the praising of 'straight' people for 'being straight', but rather a rejection of the entire worldly anthropology which takes our minds and hearts off of our own paths to union with God/theosis. In truth, you can find allusions to homosexuality in some of the sayings of the Desert Fathers, but it is not such that they would condemn nor pardon any individual on that account (read: I don't recall ever seeing it being talked about the way that modern people do, where the new monks 'are gay', and we should respect that, blahblahblah), but is tackled as one of the many, many ways by which the health of the acolyte's spirituality can be said to be in need of correction and strengthening. And again, you wouldn't get that by saying "Oh, it's okay; you're gay -- we understand that this is who you are." Again, no. There is not a 'gay heaven' and a 'straight heaven', and a 'bisexual heaven', and so on. This all belongs to the perishing world, while the continuous joy we experience in living and dying for Christ, and will even more experience should we be counted among those who have pleased God, is above everything perishable. False, worldly anthropologies included.

So I would remind these Methodists and all of us (and most especially myself) of the warnings such as Matthew 10:28, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Do you want to be found in any kind of prideful parade when He returns like a thief in the night? I wouldn't. This life is precious, and is given to us for repentance. While I myself fail stupendously at living it, I do still remember the Compline prayers:

Behold, I am about to stand before the Just Judge terrified and trembling because of my many sins. For a life spent in pleasures deserves condemnation. But repent, O my soul, so long as you dwell on this earth, for inside the grave, dust does not praise. And among the dead, no one remembers, neither in hades, does anyone give thanks. Therefore arise from the slumber of laziness, and entreat the Savior, repenting and saying, “God, have mercy on me and save me.”

+++

This is reality for everyone, no matter who or what they are or are told that they are. Lord have mercy.

Tellyontellyon said:

The Methodists in the UK now support gay marriage. The objection to homosexuality is one of the main things that puts me off Christianity, I find this sort of change encouraging.

It seems that a more nuanced understanding of the scriptures in their original languages could transform the attitudes that some Christians have towards gay relationships.

** Is it time for other denominations to look again at this issue, considering how many people find Christianity unapproachable because of the anti-gay relationship interpretations that a number of churches hold to.

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It looks like the UK Methodists have gone even further by also accepting unmarried cohabitation. From this Guardian article:


According to the same article, same-sex marriage is also "permitted by Quakers in Britain, the General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches, the Scottish Episcopal church and United Reformed Church."

OB

Tellyontellyon said:

The Methodists in the UK now support gay marriage. The objection to homosexuality is one of the main things that puts me off Christianity, I find this sort of change encouraging.

It seems that a more nuanced understanding of the scriptures in their original languages could transform the attitudes that some Christians have towards gay relationships.

** Is it time for other denominations to look again at this issue, considering how many people find Christianity unapproachable because of the anti-gay relationship interpretations that a number of churches hold to.

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The rules here on CF only permit a particular view on this subject to be discussed, as such those of us with different views on the subject aren't allowed to voice our thoughts, opinions, or present our theological and biblical arguments. The most I can say is that I agree with your second paragraph, and I may be breaking the rules even saying that.

-CryptoLutheran

Occams Barber said:

It looks like the UK Methodists have gone even further by also accepting unmarried cohabitation. From this Guardian article:

"The conference also voted to recognise, accept, and celebrate the love and commitment of unmarried cohabiting couples"​

According to the same article, same-sex marriage is also "permitted by Quakers in Britain, the General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches, the Scottish Episcopal church and United Reformed Church."

OB

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Bruh

As @ViaCrucis has said, this is not a topic that may be discussed fully on CF. However, I will point out that some denominations in the US, including my own, allow same-sex couples to be married in the church.

Not David said:

Bruh

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Bruh?

OB