IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

RickReads · Jun 26, 2021

HIM said:
Grammatically Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:10 are being spoken in the Subjunctive mood.
Mood-Subjunctive

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and
potentiality. The action described may or may not occur,
depending upon circumstances.

I disagree.

HIM · Jun 26, 2021

HIM said:
Grammar dictates what we read. Can't get any sounder than that.

Grammatically Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:10 are being spoken in the Subjunctive mood.
Mood-Subjunctive

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and
potentiality. The action described may or may not occur,
depending upon circumstances.

Whether we see or believe it...
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

RickReads said:
I disagree.

It does not matter whether we disagree. It is a fact that the grammar in the text in Hebrews 8:10 is being spoken in the subjunctive mood As explained above in the post you responded to

John 0406 · Jun 26, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi I read your post where you cited many scriptures and I looked up everyone of them. Your case is the promise of the holy spirit is tied to the new heart in the new covenant and make statements that move to dismiss any other prophecy as being fulfilled and want to send the case to the jury pretty quick. I have agreed we are under the new covenant and that there is a spiritual Israel and kingdom as well. I have maintained that national Israel has a destiny that is clearly laid out in prophecy and in one of your verses it brought up the idea of doctrine on John. Now there are many doctrines in the scriptures and one of them in particular is the law of the prophet which paraphrased notes the prophet must be 100% accurate. Now in this discussion I have attempted to cite of few of the many prophecies that are still to come regarding national Israel and tie them to the end times.

This is where when you are confronted with contradictions that the LORD declares will come to pass you go back and restate your case and do not address the verses that are mentioned. In Jer 30 and 31 for example it notes that the city Jerusalem will be rebuilt after the day of Jacobs trouble when he is saved out of it. This is tied to David being raised up and in the latter days. Jer 31 ends with the city being built at a time when the dead bodies fill the valley and from that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again. Can you explain these verses which certainly are parallel to what is described in Zech 14 and Armageddon?

I have linked the prophecies of Luke one with Jesus to take the throne of David and then to deliver Israel from its enemies in keeping the prophecies , promises, covenants and oaths that they would be delivered from their enemies to a time of worshiping and serving the LORD without fear and now in holiness all the days of their lives. This idea in a literal view has no contradictions with a futurist view. Zech 14, Dan 7 Joel 3 Isaiah 61 all tell this exact before and after story.

Please rather than restate your case explain Y or no is the mount of Olives going to split and will the dead sea be healed? ZEch 14 Eze 47. If you listed all the passages that contain promises, prophecies, covenants and oaths some are that the Gentiles will be brought in and so you do not have to restate this. I would rather have a dialogue where we can answer specific tough questions.

It is strange to me that so many ignore the huge swathes of OT prophecies that state God would bring the Israelites back to their biblical homeland, and a time would come when they will all accept Christ as their saviour. Until then, some are saved, those who accept Christ as their saviour, the same as the rest of the world.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 26, 2021

John 0406 said:
It is strange to me that so many ignore the huge swathes of OT prophecies that state God would bring the Israelites back to their biblical homeland, and a time would come when they will all accept Christ as their saviour. Until then, some are saved, those who accept Christ as their saviour, the same as the rest of the world.

Read the OP. God's ISRAEL are no longer those born of the flesh but all those born of the Spirit according to Gods new covenant promise *Romans 9:6-8.

John 0406 · Jun 26, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Read the OP. God's ISRAEL are no longer those born of the flesh but all those born of the Spirit according to Gods new covenant promise *Romans 9:6-8.

Let me rephrase to accomodate you. Some Jews are now born of the Spirit and are saved, the rest are not. Just the same as Gentiles. According to huge swathes of OT scripture a time is coming when Jews will be returned by God to their biblical homeland, and subsequently at a specific time all Jews will be born of the Spirit and accept Christ as their saviour

LoveGodsWord · Jun 27, 2021

John 0406 said:
Let me rephrase to accomodate you. Some Jews are now born of the Spirit and are saved, the rest are not. Just the same as Gentiles. According to huge swathes of OT scripture a time is coming when Jews will be returned by God to their biblical homeland, and subsequently at a specific time all Jews will be born of the Spirit and accept Christ as their saviour

Agreed there are indeed many God fearing Jews of the seed of Abraham that are born of the Spirit by believing and following God's Word and of course these are all a part of God's ISRAEL born of the Spirit according to the promise *Romans 9:6-8. No one said they were not. Your mistaken however in your understanding of who a true Jew is or God's Israel is according to the scriptures in the new covenant. According to the scriptures "he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Romans 2:28-29). Unless we are born again into God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 we cannot see the kingdom of heaven according to Jesus in John 3:3-7 and John in 1 John 3:4-9.

Davy · Jul 1, 2021

John 0406 said:
Let me rephrase to accomodate you. Some Jews are now born of the Spirit and are saved, the rest are not. Just the same as Gentiles. According to huge swathes of OT scripture a time is coming when Jews will be returned by God to their biblical homeland, and subsequently at a specific time all Jews will be born of the Spirit and accept Christ as their saviour

The other problem to be settled then is, who are 'true' Jews, and who are those who lie and only say... they are Jews, but are the "synagogue of Satan"? (Revelation 3:9)

Guojing · Jul 1, 2021

Davy said:
The other problem to be settled then is, who are 'true' Jews, and who are those who lie and only say... they are Jews, but are the "synagogue of Satan"? (Revelation 3:9)

That is easy to settle (Romans 9:6-7)

True Jews are Jews who came from Isaac and believe in Jesus as their Messiah.

Those in the "synagogue of Satan" are Jews who came from Isaac but don't believe in Jesus as their Messiah.

Davy · Jul 1, 2021

Guojing said:
That is easy to settle (Romans 9:6-7)

True Jews are Jews who came from Isaac and believe in Jesus as their Messiah.

Those in the "synagogue of Satan" are Jews who came from Isaac but don't believe in Jesus as their Messiah.

After Jesus' future return...

Zech 14:21
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

Guojing · Jul 1, 2021

Davy said:
After Jesus' future return...

Zech 14:21
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

and your point is?

Brian Mcnamee · Jul 1, 2021

Davy said:
The other problem to be settled then is, who are 'true' Jews, and who are those who lie and only say... they are Jews, but are the "synagogue of Satan"? (Revelation 3:9)

maybe it is so called Christians who have Rabbi's instead of pastors and teach the church is now the people of the covenant with Abraham.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 4, 2021

Davy said:
The other problem to be settled then is, who are 'true' Jews, and who are those who lie and only say... they are Jews, but are the "synagogue of Satan"? (Revelation 3:9)

Fervent said:
If that were true you wouldn't carve it up to suit your needs and inconsistently deal with it, nor would you have distorted my response to you as you have.

Romans 2:28-29 [28], For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29], But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Fervent · Jul 4, 2021

HIM said:
Grammar dictates what we read. Can't get any sounder than that.

Grammatically Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:10 are being spoken in the Subjunctive mood.
Mood-Subjunctive

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and
potentiality. The action described may or may not occur,
depending upon circumstances.

Whether we see or believe it...
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

There is so much wrong with this claim. First of all, Jeremiah is in Hebrew which is not strictly a grammatical language and in fact the subjunctive does not exist within it. The subjunctive is primarily a feature of Romance languages and applying modern grammatical constructs on ancient languages is a major lensing error. On top of that the subjunctive in Greek does not operate the same as the subjunctive in English so even where there is similar grammatical construct it does not have the same implications. Additionally, grammar can serve to clarify but basing theological points on grammar is entirely inappropriate since even within grammatical languages context remains the most important aspect of semantics as grammar is primarily about language flow.

HIM · Jul 4, 2021

Fervent said:
There is so much wrong with this claim. First of all, Jeremiah is in Hebrew which is not strictly a grammatical language and in fact the subjunctive does not exist within it. The subjunctive is primarily a feature of Romance languages and applying modern grammatical constructs on ancient languages is a major lensing error. On top of that the subjunctive in Greek does not operate the same as the subjunctive in English so even where there is similar grammatical construct it does not have the same implications. Additionally, grammar can serve to clarify but basing theological points on grammar is entirely inappropriate since even within grammatical languages context remains the most important aspect of semantics as grammar is primarily about language flow.

No there isn't. In respect to the Greek

Mood-Subjunctive

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and
potentiality. The action described may or may not occur,
depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the
third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as
well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses,
such as those beginning with "hina."

Hank77 · Jul 4, 2021

Guojing said:
Because you think we in the Body of Christ have now replaced Israel in God's eyes?

Who is included in the Body of Christ?
Are these people included?...
Are the Apostles, the 70 disciples, the thousands of Jews who accepted Christ such as those at Pentecost, etc. Those Jews who have accepted Christ down through the ages? What of the 7,000 [a representative number out of the millions of Israelites alive when the prophet Elisha lived] Romans 11:3? What about other of God's peculiar people in the OT like Moses, Job, Daniel, David, Deborah, Noah...?
All those who believed the OT prophets such as the Isaiah 53 prophecy.

Guojing · Jul 4, 2021

Hank77 said:
Who is included in the Body of Christ?
Are these people included?...
Are the Apostles, the 70 disciples, the thousands of Jews who accepted Christ such as those at Pentecost, etc. Those Jews who have accepted Christ down through the ages? What of the 7,000 [a representative number out of the millions of Israelites alive when the prophet Elisha lived] Romans 11:3? What about other of God's peculiar people in the OT like Moses, Job, Daniel, David, Deborah, Noah...?
All those who believed the OT prophets such as the Isaiah 53 prophecy.

Those you are referring to belong to the little flock. They are the "True Israel", that Paul was referring to in Romans 9:6-7.

True Israel/Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) refers to the little flock out of the nation Israel that believe, those that are pastored by James the brother of Jesus, at the end of Acts.

They continue to stay zealous to the Law of Moses, even after they believed in Christ as their Messiah (Acts 21:18-25, James 2:24-26, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:7).

The rest of the nation Israel has fallen in disbelief (Acts 7:51, Romans 11:1-5)

As a result of the fall of the nation of Israel, salvation without the Law of Moses (Romans 4:5), is now open to everyone, Jew and gentiles, thru Paul's gospel of grace (Romans 11:11).

All Jews and gentiles who thus believe in Paul's gospel, found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are now in the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile.

But the Body of Christ is not the same as the little flock. They are 2 separate groups of believers.

Fervent · Jul 4, 2021

HIM said:
No there isn't. In respect to the Greek

Mood-Subjunctive

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and
potentiality. The action described may or may not occur,
depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the
third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as
well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses,
such as those beginning with "hina."

That's not a complete explanation of how the subjunctive operates, just a base overview. They are similar enough to be classed together but grammatical constructs do not map perfectly from one language to another. In any case, my point is that you're attempting to make a definitive argument using grammar which is inappropriate. Grammar indicates, it does not decide. Readings may be rendered unlikely, but if the context dictates that a sentence be read in an ungrammatical fashion it is the context that determines the meaning regardless of how unlikely a reading may be.

Guojing · Jul 4, 2021

Davy · Jul 8, 2021

Guojing said:
and your point is?

Those of the "synagogue of Satan" are not descended from Israel. They are of the nations of Canaan mostly, that Israel was not able to destroy per God's commandment. Might want to go back and study your Old Testament history.

Davy · Jul 8, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
maybe it is so called Christians who have Rabbi's instead of pastors and teach the church is now the people of the covenant with Abraham.

Lord Jesus pointed to the false Jews in Matthew 13 with His parable of the tares of the field. He was pointing to Israel as the good wheat. But who the "tares" are He was pointing to that He said the devil sowed, that is only learned by studying Old Testament history, like Judges 2 & 3, and Joshua 9, etc. This is why the last verse of Zechariah 14 says when Jesus returns there won't be anymore Canaanites in the house of God.

IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

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