ChetSinger
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Let's take this further. Do you believe that God has predestined the spin of every electron in creation at every moment in time?
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Could God have Created a Different Universe?
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J_B_
I have answers to questions no one ever asks.
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There are all kinds of complex twisty turns embedded in a question like this and it makes my head spin such that I'm never sure where to start. I'm going to try starting as simply as I can, then we'll go from there.
Yes, I can imagine God making different choices than what he did. But I believe he had his reasons for the choices he made, so to make different choices would have been some kind of cognitive dissonance where he's choosing something he doesn't think is best.
I'm going to guess you don't think he made the best choice. Am I right?
Now the disclaimer: I don't know what you think a god is, so I only stand by my answer in terms of what I think a god is. If you're going to insist on something different, all bets are off and I'll need to revise my answer.
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I don't believe God exists so I have no idea what theists believe on this subject.
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I have no idea if He made the right choice. My thought, or another persons thoughts I agreed with, is that if God chose to make this universe over any other universe He could have created knowing all that would happen then no one has free will so how can God blame non Christians for unbelief when God chose a universe where people would not believe?
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J_B_
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My position is that God knows all possible options, but he doesn't know which you will choose in the future. Or, better put, he chooses not to know your future choice.
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ChetSinger
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See post # 3. Here's a link back to it:
Could God have Created a Different Universe?
As you can see from post #3, most of us will believe or think or surmise that God created a useful universe (one that results in valuable outcomes) --> one in which beings are able to choose to love. As you should be able to very easily see me explain, simply and clearly in post #3, even just that alone would strongly suggest we are not fully predetermined. Also, so do 'bell test experiments'.
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They are alive right now.
But you are thinking of only this temporary body I know.
For that, just like any child that dies, you will die.
(Or do you feel in your heart that you won't?, or think you wont?)
Since this mortal body's life is only a short temporary life, whether 1 year or 100 -- both quite short times -- the real question is who will live a significant amount of time instead, something that might be enough to matter (e.g. 100,000 years or 100 million, or more)
The innocent children that passed on will have eternal life. So, they will live and live and live and live.
Will you, or me?
We have to repent with faith to be given that.
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Indeed so, a serious rejection of another person.
Often in real life, that would happen whenever you treat someone as if they are not even good enough to know.
Pretty evil, really.
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I don't see how for love to exist we have to have free will. What is love? From what we can demonstrate love is caused by different neurotransmitters in the brain fluctuating. Also, superdeterminism cannot be ruled out as a possible solution to the bell experiments.
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ChetSinger
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In your universe without God do you believe we have free will? How do you define what free will is?
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Matt5
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In other words, why did God create a defective universe given all that has happened on Earth?
1/3 of the angels rebelled against God in heaven. So apparently he needs a new heaven too.
We can roll this all up into the defective product theory. God screwed up, so everything is his fault. The only real solution is to wiped us all out and start over.
Thanks Clizby WampusCat. You just got everybody killed.
This is why Jesus was required - as in not optional. Otherwise, God would have to wipe out everything and start over. Note that starting over wouldn't work either. Free will is the problem. Not the heaven and universe.
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TedT
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ImCo HE created this as the best pace to fulfill HIS original purpose of having a heavenly marriage with HIS creation and HIS secondary purpose (forced upon HIM by the Satanic repudiating HIM and the rebellion of some of the elect forcing the postponement of the day of judgement) of bringing HIS sheep gone astray into sin (the sinful good , ie, elect, seeds) to full holiness, ie to be in complete accord with HIS purpose for us, especially the start of the day of judgement against those who rebuked HIM as a false god and a liar.
That it is perfect for HIS purpose suggests that it cannot be improved upon but it does not suggest that it is the only universe that can perfectly fulfill HIS purpose, does it...
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TedT
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Are human prisons defective because they do not run by the same rules and morés of more polite society? Not a bit, and neither is there anything defective about the use of Earth as the prison when the Satanic horde was flung and the few sinful elect with them.
This prison called Earth is a place of judgement and the proof of evil thru death and suffering. The Satanic are partially judged for their crimes here in their lives with NO rehabilitative intent and the sinful elect suffer disciplinary punishments for their sins with a guaranteed rehabilitative effect to bring them to holiness.
All defect is found in the Earthly citizens, not in how the environment perfectly gives these corrupt citizens what they need for the redemption of the sinful elect, ie, the awareness of their own evil and that the evil of the Satanic is eternal.
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TedT
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I agreed with this but to be clear I only partially agree.
ImCo
we all chose by our free will our eternal relationship with YHWH that set our FATE as HIS Bride or as HIS eternal enemy, destined to the outer darkness.
Then when some of those who were elect, ie, destined to be HIS bride by their faith, sinned against HIM, losing their free will to an addiction to evil, HE created predetermined LIVES for them to live as the best, most perfect way possible to bring them back to HIM, to redeem them and bring them to repentance and sanctification.
So I accept that while everything here, in our human lives, is predestined, I do NOT think that our fates were created with us as predestined to heaven or hell. To fulfill HIS purpose to have a true marriage with us based on love, HE had to create us with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to chose to either put our faith in HIS claims to be our creator GOD or against HIM as a liar and a false god.
Since we are conceived here as sinners, that is, with no free will, I suggest it is probable we were created before our election or the condemnation of the Satanic, before the creation of the physical universe and that we were part of the crowd (called ALL the sons of GOD) who saw the glory of the creation of the physical universe and sang our hearts out in praise of HIM: Job 38:7, which proof is talked about extensively in Rom 1, especially its effect upon the satanic.
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I think this is a useful definition:
The power of making choices that are neither determined by natural causality nor predestined by fate or divine will.
All that I have read and studied on this topic makes me lean toward that we do not have free will. However, I don't know how anyone could demonstrate that we do or do not have free will.
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TedT
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I believe that this time on earth is an aberration forced upon GOD by first, the Satanic repudiation of HIS deity and purpose and secondly, by the stance of some of HIS elect against the judgement of the Satanic, forcing both the postponement of the judgment until they could be made holy and the need for the sinful but elect (good) seed to live with the weeds to further their sanctification.
I believe HIS purpose was a heavenly marriage, ie a perfect fellowship of comunion based on a loving telepathic bond of emotion and communication between everyone in the marriage, GOD included, at all times.
Once this reality is cleansed from all evil then the heavenly marriage will be implemented after which I believe this huge wonderful universe will be our playground to explore the wonders of HIS imagination and creativity!! It will be glorious!!
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No, this is not my point.
I never said the universe was the problem. The point I was trying to make is how can you have free will if God could have created any other universe but chose to create this one knowing everything that would happen in it?
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Nothing here addresses my point or answers my question. Could God have created a different universe but created this one knowing everything that would happen in it?
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Nothing here addresses my point or answers my question. Could God have created a different universe but created this one knowing everything that would happen in it?
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