The Liturgist

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Sin is opposition to God's nature. As God is the ultimate source of all that is good in reality, sin is inherently vicious yet it is necessary for human beings to be able to free. Sin and evil are distinct, which is why the cross provides respite to those who are caught in sin but the wicked will not go unpunished. Sin has no existence of its own but is an un-making. An un-creation.

I agree entirely with your understanding of sin as described above, as an act of uncreation resulting from the inevitable defiance against God’s will, from which we are saved by grace through faith in our Savior, Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word of God, whose incarnation, passion on the Cross and triumph over death opens the possibility of life everlasting for those who repent and believe in Him.
 
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Exegesis of a term or concept in one book of the Bible does not mean that we should ignore what the Bible writers say on that same topic - but not in that same book.

In any case "Commandments of God" in 1 John 5:2 and Rev 14:12 is a term used by the same author - and in Eph 6:1-2 we find out what the "first commandment with a promise" is in that thing the Bible calls "the commandments of God" - as Christ Himself reminds us in Matt 19

Note that the study of part of Sacred Scripture, such as a verse, chapter, book, or entire section of books, in isolation, is not exegesis, but eisegesis.

Proper exegesis takes into account, to the best of the exegete’s ability, the entirety of Scripture. When it comes to the interpretation of scripture, I agree with the fourth and fifth century Church Fathers Hilary of Potiers and Vincent of Lerins, that Scripture is in the Interpretation and not the reading, and that consistency with the Apostolic tradition, “that which has been believed always, everywhere, and by everyone can properly be called Catholic,” where Catholic is used in the sense of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church we confess in the Nicene Creed, which is to say the universal church of all the faithful. And because even careful exegetes can still draw spectacularly wrong conclusions simply by misunderstanding or misinterpreting a verse, such as happened with the Millerites and the Great Disappointment, I mainly trust the exegesis of the Early Church Fathers, who were closest to the Apostles, who edited the New Testament (especially St. Athanasius) and defended the doctrine of the Holy Trinity against the efforts of the Roman Empire, and later the Visigoths and Ostrogoths, to suppress it, replacing authentic Christianity with the counterfeit that was Arianism.

Other than them, John Wesley, and Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky are the only recent exegetes whose work strikes me as trustworthy. I also think Karl Barth, Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin did a very thorough job of exegesis, which in the case of Aquinas is almost but not entirely in accord with the Patristic exegetes, whereas I think Calvin, particularly in his second edition of his Institutes made some errors, but I am defining errors as divergence from the teachings of the early church fathers, which to his credit Calvin was trying to follow (the Latin term consensus patrum is of Calvinist origin), but he did not have enough information and also seriously misjudged the Eastern churches due to iconoclasm on his part, which denied him access to many of the Greek and Syrian Fathers, resulting in both himself and also Aquinas relying too heavily on Augustine, and worse than Augustine, Anselm of Canterbury.
 
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All Glory To God

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I am sure they can speak for themselves. Of course all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (see Romans 3:9-23. The purpose of God's law is to lead us to Christ that we as sinners might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. This is the meaning of the question asked by Jesus to the Scribes and the Pharisees in Matthew 9:12-13. According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. According to the scriptures, obedience to God's law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of forgiveness and salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. According to the scriptures if our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. At the second coming Christs reward is with him *Revelation 22:12.

Hope this is helpful


It helps somewhat but not entirely. You appeared to be focusing on human activity and that all fall prey to sinful activity. I agree all people sin but I am asking about the human nature, not human activity. The common term for being born with a sinful nature passed down from Adam is ''original sin'' and that's what I am asking.

I personal think sin has broken us, so that we not only have a sin nature but only by Gods Grace can a person have faith in Christ. What's your view on this?
 
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All Glory To God

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Eph 6:1-2 Paul says the Law of God includes the TEN where "the first commandment with a promise is the command to Honor your father and mother"

Matt 19 Jesus said "Keep the Commandments" and is then asked "which ones" - so He quotes "from the Law of Moses" - but primarily from "the TEN" in that Law.

Paul does the same thing in Rom 13

Paul says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
John says the saints "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
John says "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3
Paul says Christ is the one giving the Commandments at Sinai - in Heb 8:6-12.


Adam was given a commandment by God, with a good nature and a self determining will to perform the law. Adam failed! Why is that given his natural righteousness as the first created human in the garden?
 
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All Glory To God

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All of the laws that God has given were given to how to testify about his nature, so sin is what is against God's nature, and committing sin is bearing false witness against God's name. Sin is missing the mark, the mark is God's nature, sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), and God's law teaches us what it means to hit the mark of God's nature.


If Gods law is a marker to hit the mark, would you be able to say what Old Testament Laws are still active? If you cannot tell what they are and indeed are transgressing them, are you sinning?
 
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All Glory To God

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The Greek word “Hamartia” used to translate it from the Hebrew literally means “to miss the mark.” We all fall short of divine glory, and so miss the mark in that sense.

This is why I prefer the medicinal approach of the Eastern churches to sin as opposed to the forensic model favored in the West.

What's the difference? And why do you think the Eastern is better?
 
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BobRyan

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Are we born with a sinful nature or a good nature?

All are born with a sinful nature - AND - "all have sinned" Rom 3:23 -

"To him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17 so of course infants have not sinned - but they still have a sinful nature - a bent toward anger, rage, rebellion against Love,Joy,Peace nature of the New Birth.)

(And the Law of God points out what sin is Rom 3:19-20)
 
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BobRyan

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Adam was given a commandment by God, with a good nature and a self determining will to perform the law. Adam failed! Why is that given his natural righteousness as the first created human in the garden?

Lucifer also failed even before Adam did. Lucifer also had a perfect sinless nature.

Free will is at the root - but that is not all. It was a mix of free will and also being confronted with a puzzle, not knowing the end of it - having to choose to trust God for what they could not put together.

IF the "test" had been "here is a white hot stove - don't put your hand on it" Adam and Eve surely would have succeeded because they could easily see all the reasons and could see nothing to be gained from placing their hand on a hot stove.

So "sure" God telling someone "my commandment is that you not bash your head against a rock" is not the kind of a "commandment" that free will beings would have been the least bit tempted to violate -- and they also would not grow/mature.

Even in schools - the students are not simply confronted with problems they already know the answer to - they are asked to "work through" a problem until they find the right answer.
 
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BobRyan

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If Gods law is a marker to hit the mark, would you be able to say what Old Testament Laws are still active?

Well almost all major denominations know about God's TEN being included in the Laws that are still active --

The "Baptist Confession of Faith" sectn 19, (as expanded by C.H. Spurgeon in the 19th century)
The "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19,
D.L. Moody's sermon on the Ten Commandments,
The Catholic Catechism on the TEN, Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II,
Paul's statement in Eph 6:1-2
...etc

All show that there is agreement among Bible scholars across a great many denominations that "the TEN" are included in what is "the Law of God still active" -- the Law of God "established by the born-again Christians" Rom 3:31

If your question is "what else" besides the TEN -- then notice that those confessions of faith point out that the Civil Laws ended when the national-theocracy of Israel ended, and the Ceremonial laws ended when the Heb 10:4-11 animal sacrifices that defined them ended at the cross.
 
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Note that the study of part of Sacred Scripture, such as a verse, chapter, book, or entire section of books, in isolation, is not exegesis, but eisegesis.

That is not true. One can show the Bible position on given text without having to first "quote the entire Bible".

I think a lot of people will agree on that point.

Proper exegesis takes into account, to the best of the exegete’s ability, the entirety of Scripture ON that point but does not require that we quote every text in all of scripture that redundantly makes that same point again.

I agree with the fourth and fifth century Church Fathers Hilary of Potiers and Vincent of Lerins

I agree with the scripture "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were SO" Acts 17:11

Notice what they did not do -- "Hey Paul we cannot agree with you until we first find out if our magisterium agrees with you".

It does not say "they asked for respected opinions to see if all popular leaders in the Jewish one-true-nation-church started by God at Sinai -- already agreed with the Apostle Paul"

On these points (at least to some degree) -- I think we agree.

Other than them, John Wesley, and Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky are the only recent exegetes whose work strikes me as trustworthy. I also think Karl Barth, Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin did a very thorough job of exegesis,

Clearly those folks did not agree with each other.
 
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If Gods law is a marker to hit the mark, would you be able to say what Old Testament Laws are still active? If you cannot tell what they are and indeed are transgressing them, are you sinning?
God's nature is eternal, therefore all of God's righteous laws are eternally active (Psalms 119:160), though the conditions under which they apply are not necessarily always present, such as the command to keep the Sabbath holy that only applies under the condition that it is the 7th day or laws in regard to temple practice that only apply when there is a temple in which to practice them. The Israelites we're give a number of laws with the condition "when you enter the land" while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years. When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for them to return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which required them to have access to the temple, which had been destroyed. Laws in regard to temple practice that weren't followed after the destruction of the 1st temple were once again followed after the construction of the 2nd temple, so when there are laws that can't currently be followed, we should nevertheless still be faithful to obey as much as we can. Sin offerings were only for unintentional sins, so it is still possible to sin unintentionally.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It helps somewhat but not entirely. You appeared to be focusing on human activity and that all fall prey to sinful activity. I agree all people sin but I am asking about the human nature, not human activity. The common term for being born with a sinful nature passed down from Adam is ''original sin'' and that's what I am asking.

I personal think sin has broken us, so that we not only have a sin nature but only by Gods Grace can a person have faith in Christ. What's your view on this?
Sorry I perhaps I misread your question. Here let me answer it plainly. We have all been born with a sinful nature or a carnal or sinful mind also called the flesh (Romans 7:1-25), that is why we need to be born again according to Jesus in *John 3:3-7 and John in 1 John 3:6-9 to walk in God's Spirit according to Paul Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4; 8:13: Romans 6:1-23. Sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil according to 1 John 3:9-10; 1 John 2:3-4. See also Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14.
 
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Jesus Christ and took care of all people sins dying once on the cross; and that is something many people look over for the most part of God so loving the world (Everyone) that He had done this. Especially for that economy back then; and the economy that is for today.

All people and their sins are paid for and the more you realize and accept this and you go and turn your attention in to prayer and being thankful to God, and lifting up people unto Him for their own deliverance the more at peace with you have because of God protecting your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4 (NIV)
4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.


Following Christ - and feeding the spirit - sin will be cut off from you because of the spiritual new born again creation that is the new inner-man / inner-woman that longs for God and if you walk by the spirit you will Love God and Love Others.

1 Corinthians 1:30 Niv
30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness (santification) and redemption.


If you do not show love towards God or others - your will quench the spirit. You will feel guilt; but God is still there and loves you and understands that you are going to make mistakes. He is not there it harm you or anything ; God our Father desires to help you in your situations! So call out to Him.

If you do not care about God or others - the spirit in you will die and you will return back to being spiritually dead if you are not careful. You = Stop having faith. Thus the spirit in you dies.
 
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All Glory To God

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All are born with a sinful nature - AND - "all have sinned" Rom 3:23 -

"To him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17 so of course infants have not sinned - but they still have a sinful nature - a bent toward anger, rage, rebellion against Love,Joy,Peace nature of the New Birth.)

(And the Law of God points out what sin is Rom 3:19-20)


Infants and the unborn people in the womb have not sinned, but what type of nature do they have? Which is exactly my point. I would say sin, caused by the fall has broken us. Not a proclivity to sin but a sin nature. What makes up the human constitution is entangled with sin and will not be freed from the indwelling presence of sin until the resurrection of our new incorruptible bodies, at Christs glorious second coming.

Some scriptures that help elucidate the utter wickedness of fallen man:

Job 14:4
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others
 
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All Glory To God

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Lucifer also failed even before Adam did. Lucifer also had a perfect sinless nature.

Free will is at the root - but that is not all. It was a mix of free will and also being confronted with a puzzle, not knowing the end of it - having to choose to trust God for what they could not put together.

IF the "test" had been "here is a white hot stove - don't put your hand on it" Adam and Eve surely would have succeeded because they could easily see all the reasons and could see nothing to be gained from placing their hand on a hot stove.

So "sure" God telling someone "my commandment is that you not bash your head against a rock" is not the kind of a "commandment" that free will beings would have been the least bit tempted to violate -- and they also would not grow/mature.

Even in schools - the students are not simply confronted with problems they already know the answer to - they are asked to "work through" a problem until they find the right answer.


If you're implying Satan caused the fall of Adam, then this means God used Satan to cause the fall by beguiling the two?
 
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All Glory To God

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God's nature is eternal, therefore all of God's righteous laws are eternally active (Psalms 119:160), though the conditions under which they apply are not necessarily always present, such as the command to keep the Sabbath holy that only applies under the condition that it is the 7th day or laws in regard to temple practice that only apply when there is a temple in which to practice them. The Israelites we're give a number of laws with the condition "when you enter the land" while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years. When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for them to return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which required them to have access to the temple, which had been destroyed. Laws in regard to temple practice that weren't followed after the destruction of the 1st temple were once again followed after the construction of the 2nd temple, so when there are laws that can't currently be followed, we should nevertheless still be faithful to obey as much as we can. Sin offerings were only for unintentional sins, so it is still possible to sin unintentionally.

I will go further and say Gods whole being is immutable. And you are saying that Gods law is eternally active but not always ''present'' or in other words doesn't count. And that is the difficult part, separating out what is applicable and what is not applicable, and for what time period and for what people.
 
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All Glory To God

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Sorry I perhaps I misread your question. Here let me answer it plainly. We have all been born with a sinful nature or a carnal or sinful mind also called the flesh (Romans 7:1-25), that is why we need to be born again according to Jesus in *John 3:3-7 and John in 1 John 3:6-9 to walk in God's Spirit according to Paul Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4; 8:13: Romans 6:1-23. Sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil according to 1 John 3:9-10; 1 John 2:3-4. See also Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14.


So you believe it is possible for a person to have no sin? No sin at all, by nature or otherwise?
 
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All Glory To God

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Jesus Christ and took care of all people sins dying once on the cross;

What does it mean for Christ to pay for someones sins? Briefly, I think it means they have the redemptive work of the sons perfect ministry applied to their life. To be made righteous and have the wrath of the God the father appeased and granted access to Gods kingdom-all by Christs work alone. I don't think all people will have this work applied to them, I think some will have it applied to them. Gods friends/the elect.

If all peoples sins are forgiven, it follows that all will be saved? If God intended to save all his creation from punishment, why use a mediator? Why not do it all in the court room?

and that is something many people look over for the most part of God so loving the world (Everyone) that He had done this. Especially for that economy back then; and the economy that is for today.

World does not mean every single person that ever existed.

God hated Esau.

All people and their sins are paid for and the more you realize and accept this and you go and turn your attention in to prayer and being thankful to God, and lifting up people unto Him for their own deliverance the more at peace with you have because of God protecting your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4 (NIV)
4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.


Following Christ - and feeding the spirit - sin will be cut off from you because of the spiritual new born again creation that is the new inner-man / inner-woman that longs for God and if you walk by the spirit you will Love God and Love Others.

1 Corinthians 1:30 Niv
30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness (santification) and redemption.


If you do not show love towards God or others - your will quench the spirit. You will feel guilt; but God is still there and loves you and understands that you are going to make mistakes. He is not there it harm you or anything ; God our Father desires to help you in your situations! So call out to Him.

If you do not care about God or others - the spirit in you will die and you will return back to being spiritually dead if you are not careful. You = Stop having faith. Thus the spirit in you dies.

None of these scriptures actually states all peoples sins are paid, because not all sins have been paid for by Christ.
 
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BobRyan

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If you're implying Satan caused the fall of Adam, then this means God used Satan to cause the fall by beguiling the two?

God is not in charge of telling the wicked what to do or who to tempt.

God commanded Adam and Eve not to mess with the Tree of knowledge of good and evil -- and He did not allow Satan any access at all to Adam and Eve other than at that one tree they were commanded not to eat of -- but He left both Lucifer and Adam and Eve - with free will as well as all the angels.

Only 1/3 of the angels "chose" to follow Lucifer - and 2/3 of them chose loyalty to God. Free will does not equal "fail".
 
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