Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2021

MMXX said:
Non-responsive

The NT presents no "age" between the first and second comings of Jesus Christ.

The NT denies any coming of Jesus Christ before the end of time to restore everything (Acts 3:21) in the new heavens and new earth.

The NT locates the second coming at the end of time with the seventh trumpet--
(summons--Exodus 19:6-17, to judgment--Hosea 5:8-9, Hosea 8:1; Amos 2:1-2; Zephaniah 1:15-17)
when the mystery of God (Ephesians 1:9-10) will be accomplished (Revelation 11:7)
--at the general resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:52-54), with
the rapture of the saints and the final judgment (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; Colossians 3:4)
in the last day (John 6:39-40, John 6:44, John 6:54, John 11:24; 1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16),
the Day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:8, 1 Corinthians 5:5; Philippians 1:6, Philippians 1:10, Philippians 2:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:2).

The last age is eternity according to the NT.

As in, "After these things I will return, And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, And I will rebuild its ruins, And I will restore it" Acts 15:16?

Glossing the Scriptures again. . .in context (Acts 15:12-19), James is saying that the promise (Amos 9:11-12) to rebuild David's tent is fulfilled in God taking to himself a people from the Gentiles and, therefore, they should not make it difficult for the Gentiles to come in by requiring circumcision (Acts 15:1-3).

do you consider to be authoritative NT teaching, Catholicism? Orthodoxy? Calvinism?

The word of God written in all of them, just as Luther Biblically demonstrated the error of Catholicism regarding salvation by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), which the Catholic Church has now come to agree is Biblical truth.

How so?

Answered in my post which you are addressing.

you made it up?

I have no idea. . .is it contra-Biblical? . . .is there some law against phrasing?

This is not Brian.

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2021

Hmm said:
I wonder if the idea behind the number is is if you forgive that many times it becomes habitual.

Sevens are numbers of fullness, completion. . .it means until time is completed.

Ceallaigh · Jul 1, 2021

Hmm said:
I wonder if the idea behind the number is is if you forgive that many times it becomes habitual.

Yeah I think it was to illustrate a point rather than be taken literally.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 1, 2021

Jipsah said:
Spare me the "agree with my doctrine or sup sorrow" schtick. There's too much made-up stuff in SDA dogma for any such approach to be effective. I believe that God is both Sovereign, and Omnipotent, and His will cannot be resisted. If He wants you to go, you're going to go, whether it's rejoicing or kicking and screaming "You can't do this! Muh Free Will! You can't make me do it!"

There is no dogma or made up stuff in anything that has been shared with you dear friend only scriptures. You have only been provided God's Word and God's Word is not my words but God's. Yet it seems you do not believe God's word when he says those who do not believe and follow His Word will not inherit the Kingdom of God? 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 [9], Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10], Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionists, shall inherit the kingdom of God. There is only dogma in following man-made teachings and traditions that are not biblical that lead others away from God and His Word, like the false teachings of Universalism. Only God's Word is true therefore according to the scriptures and we should prayerfully believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Ceallaigh · Jul 1, 2021

Clare73 said:
The NT presents no "age" between the first and second comings of Jesus Christ.

The NT denies any coming of Jesus Christ before the end of time to restore everything (Acts 3:21) in the new heavens and new earth.

The NT locates the second coming at the end of time with the seventh trumpet--
(summons--Exodus 19:6-17, to judgment--Hosea 5:8-9, Hosea 8:1; Amos 2:1-2; Zephaniah 1:15-17)
when the mystery of God (Ephesians 1:9-10) will be accomplished (Revelation 11:7)
--at the general resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:52-54), with
the rapture of the saints and the final judgment (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; Colossians 3:4)
in the last day (John 6:39-40, John 6:44, John 6:54, John 11:24; 1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16),
the Day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:8, 1 Corinthians 5:5; Philippians 1:6, Philippians 1:10, Philippians 2:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:2).

The last age is eternity according to the NT.

If so then how do you explain the NT saying there will be ages to come?

For example; "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:4-7

Glossing the Scriptures again. . .in context (Acts 15:12-19), James is saying that the promise (Amos 9:11-12) to rebuild David's tent is fulfilled in God taking to himself a people from the Gentiles and, therefore, they should not make it difficult for the Gentiles to come in by requiring circumcision (Acts 15:1-3).

What I took note of is God rebuilding that which was brought to ruin. It seems to me that God's whole plan is one of restoration. But apparently to you being optimistic regarding God's ultimate plan for all of humanity equates to "glossing".

The word of God written in all of them, just as Luther Biblically demonstrated the error of Catholicism regarding salvation by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), which the Catholic Church has now come to agree is Biblical truth.

The point is, there's what the NT says, and then there's how you, and I, and others interpret what the NT says. That's why terms like theology, doctrine, exegesis and hermeneutics exist. That's why there are different Bible colleges and seminaries with different forms of teaching. Your version of what the NT says, is not the only or official version. Perhaps you should write "my version of what the NT says, is not the only or official version" on a blackboard a hundred times.

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2021

MMXX said:
If so then how do you explain the NT saying there will be ages to come?

For example; "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:4-7

I don't think it is contradicting Ephesians 1:21: "in the present age and also in the one to come."
There was still future in the present age, and along with the age to come would make "ages."

What I took note of is God rebuilding that which was brought to ruin. It seems to me that God's whole plan is one of restoration.

And you seek to substitute your plan of restoration for God's revealed plan of restoration.
On what authority do you add the emptying out of hell in that restoration, when the word of truth states just the opposite
(Revelation 20:14-15)?

But apparently to you being optimistic regarding God's ultimate plan for all of humanity equates to "glossing".

Indeed, "optimism" is not one of the Biblical tools for rightly dividing (cutting straight, handling) the word of truth.
And yes, when you alter the word of truth to fit your notion of "restoration," where you include the emptying out of hell, nowhere presented in the word of truth, but rather denied in the word of truth (Mark 9:47-48; Revelation 20:14-15), you are glossing the word of truth.

Restoration in the NT is of the old creation in the new creation:
restored church, the body of Christ, the one man out of the two--Jew and Gentile (Ephesians 2:15-16),
restored nature from decay (Romans 8:19-22),
restored humn spirit in the new birth (2 Corinthians 5:17),
restored incorruptible, sinless, glorious bodies in the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:42-44),
restored heavens and earth in the new heavens and earth, the home of righteousness (1 Peter 1:10-13),
nothing anywhere about emptying out Gehenna, but rather the opposite--filling it (Mark 9:47-48; Revelation 20:14-15).

The point is, there's what the NT says, and then there's how you, and I, and others interpret what the NT says.

And the word of truth will not be rightly divided by anyone who goes to it looking for verification of what they want it to mean (universal reconciliation), rather than to receive what it says, whether it suits/agrees/fits their fancies or not.
Who likes the idea of eternal torment? No one. So?

That's why terms like theology, doctrine, exegesis and hermeneutics exist.
That's why there are different Bible colleges and seminaries with different forms of teaching.

Which serve as a great refuge for eisegesists.

Your version of what the NT says, is not the only or official version.

It's consistent with the whole word of truth, which yours is not. . .the first rule of measure.

There is nothing in Scripture anywhere in disagreement with the following teaching:

sin not being forgiven even in the next life (Matthew 12:32)--no universal reconciliation,
burning of the tares/weeds (Matthew 13:30),
unquenchable fire for unforgiven sin (Mark 9:47-48),
burning up (ruin) of the chaff with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17),
no eternal life, only wrath for those who reject Christ (John 3:36),
unending second death (Revelation 20:14-15, Revelation 20:10).

You have no Biblical basis for denying or even disagreeng with anything in the above.

This is not Brian.

Ceallaigh · Jul 1, 2021

Clare73 said:
I don't think it is contradicting Ephesians 1:21: "in the present age and also in the one to come."
There was still future in the present age, and along with the age to come would make "ages."

It's saying ages to come after this age.

And you seek to substitute your plan of restoration for God's revealed plan of restoration.
On what authority do you add the emptying out of hell in that restoration, when the word of truth states just the opposite
(Revelation 20:14-15)?

I'm working from a specific doctrine that was established way before I was born. Working with it doesn't make it mine. Jesus emptying out hell along with braking down its gates with the cross, destroying its locks and chains (which obviously wouldn't exist on the "paradise side"), and binding the personification of death/sin/satan is found in Orthodoxy. Rev 20:14 is a UR proof text, you should have seen used by UR proponents several times. How can you seem to not know these things considering how much time you've spent in UR threads? It seems you're only in these threads to flame and not one bit interested in the topic outside of that. And I'm not going to keep entraining that ad infinitum.

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2021

MMXX said:
It's saying ages to come after this age. (Ephesians 2:4-7)

Not in light of what it says in Ephesians 1:21, as well as the rest of the NT:

the church is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 1:11) and
the church is the last times and end of the ages (1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26).

The NT leaves no doubt about what age we are in.

I'm working from a specific doctrine that was established way before I was born. Working with it doesn't make it mine. Jesus emptying out hell along with braking down its gates with the cross, destroying its locks and chains (which obviously wouldn't exist on the "paradise side"), and binding the personification of death/sin/satan is found in Orthodoxy. Rev 20:14 is a UR proof text, you should have seen used by UR proponents several times.

Are you sure those gates aren't purgatory?

Do they provide any Biblical support for their understanding?

It seems you're only in these threads to flame and not one bit interested in the topic outside of that.

You engaged me on two separate issues in this thread, I didn't engage you.

And I've been responding to your points ever since.

And I'm not complaining because you engaged me.

This is not Brian.

Ceallaigh · Jul 1, 2021

Clare73 said:
Indeed, "optimism" is not one of the Biblical tools for rightly dividing (cutting straight, handling) the word of truth.
And yes, when you alter the word of truth to fit your notion of "restoration," where you include the emptying out of hell, nowhere presented in the word of truth, but rather denied in the word of truth (Mark 9:47-48; Revelation 20:14-15), you are glossing the word of truth.

Restoration in the NT is of the old creation in the new creation:
restored church, the body of Christ, the one man out of the two--Jew and Gentile (Ephesians 2:15-16),
restored nature from decay (Romans 8:19-22),
restored humn spirit in the new birth (2 Corinthians 5:17),
restored incorruptible, sinless, glorious bodies in the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:42-44),
restored heavens and earth in the new heavens and earth, the home of righteousness (1 Peter 1:10-13),
nothing anywhere about emptying out Gehenna, but rather the opposite--filling it (Mark 9:47-48; Revelation 20:14-15).

And the word of truth will not be rightly divided by anyone who goes to it looking for verification of what they want it to mean (universal reconciliation), rather than to receive what it says, whether it suits/agrees/fits their fancies or not.
Who likes the idea of eternal torment? No one. So?
Which serve as a great refuge for eisegesists.

It's consistent with the whole word of truth, which yours is not. . .the first rule of measure.

There is nothing in Scripture anywhere in disagreement with the following teaching:

sin not being forgiven even in the next life (Matthew 12:32)--no universal reconciliation,
burning of the tares/weeds (Matthew 13:30),
unquenchable fire for unforgiven sin (Mark 9:47-48),
burning of the chaff with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17),
no eternal life, only wrath for those who reject Christ (John 3:36),
unending second death (Revelation 20:14-15, Revelation 20:10).

You have no Biblical basis for denying or even disagreeng with anything in the above.

Once again, it's not mine. It's the topic of this thread which I bothered to learn about before discussing it. Rehashing material that's already been addressed is an exercise in futility I won't keep engaging in. Explaining what I think various verses could mean, doesn't equate to denying them or disagreeing with them. The only legitimate criticism you can make is that you don't agree with my analysis.

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2021

MMXX said:
Once again, it's not mine. It's the topic of this thread which I bothered to learn about before discussing it. Rehashing material that's already been addressed is an exercise in futility I won't keep engaging in. Explaining what I think various verses could mean, doesn't equate to denying them or disagreeing with them. The only legitimate criticism you can make is that you don't agree with my analysis.

I didn't realize you were just knocking things around.

This isn't Brian.

Ceallaigh · Jul 1, 2021

Clare73 said:
Not in light of what it says in Ephesians 1:21, as well as the rest of the NT:

the church is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 1:11) and
the church is the last times and end of the ages (1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26).

The NT leaves no doubt about what age we are in.

I didn't say there's any doubt about what age we're in. I said ages to come after this age is spoken of. I don't believe that God's unfolding plan stops and become static at the end of this age. I believe there's a lot more to come. So do others. I disagree with the notion of th th that's all folks!

Are you sure those gates aren't purgatory?

Yes. Because I studied the meaning of it. And because I know that Orthodoxy doesn't teach purgatory.

Do they provide any Biblical support for their understanding?

Yes. But don't take my word for it. Take a little time out to study it.

RickReads · Jul 1, 2021

Clare73 said:
The NT presents no "age" between the first and second comings of Jesus Christ.

Unfortunate that you resist the gospel of Paul. He declares it.

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Colossians 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Ceallaigh · Jul 1, 2021

Clare73 said:
I didn't realize you were just knocking things around.

I'm here to objectively discuss a topic I took a little time to learn something about. Whereas you seem to be here to subjectively flame. You seem to thrive on contention. I prefer civil and constructive discourse.

AV1611VET · Jul 1, 2021

Cormack said:
So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

No.

It deprives us from our freewill.

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2021

MMXX said:
I didn't say there's any doubt about what age we're in. I said ages to come after this age is spoken of. I don't believe that God's unfolding plan stops and become static at the end of this age. I believe there's a lot more to come. So do others. I disagree with the notion of th th that's all folks!

Yes, there is our physical spiritual bodies in eternity and the new heavens and new earth to come in the next age.

Yes. Because I studied the meaning of it. And because I know that Orthodoxy doesn't teach purgatory.
Yes. But don't take my word for it. Take a little time out to study it.

Since you've got the data, are you in a position to shed any light on their response to the Scriptures and points I've presented?

This is not Brian.

Ceallaigh · Jul 1, 2021

Clare73 said:
Yes, there is our physical spiritual bodies in eternity and the new heavens and new earth to come in the next age.

And that's it for the rest of eternity. Nothing else. Nothing further to unfold.

Since you've got the data, are you in a position to shed any light on their response to the Scriptures and points I've presented?

harrowing of hell orthodox scriptures - Google Search

Clare73 · Jul 1, 2021

Clare73 said:
The NT presents no "age" between the first and second comings of Jesus Christ.

RickReads said:
Unfortunate that you resist the gospel of Paul. He declares it.

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Colossians 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Are you sure about that?

In the Greek, "dispensation" is not a period or epoch, but a mode of dealing, an arrangement or admininstration of affairs (dispensation of law, dispenstion of grace).

"Dispensation" (Gr: oikonomia) means stewardship (oikos=house, nomos=law) law or arrangement of a house; i.e., managment of a household or household affairs. Paul applies it to the
stewardship (dispensation) entrusted to him of preaching the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:7), to the

stewardhip (dispensation) commited to him to "fulfill the word of God" (Colossians 1:25), the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the divinely arranged and imparted cycle of truths which are consummated in the truth relating to the church as the body of Christ, to the

grace of God gvien him as a stewardship (dispensation) in regard to the same mystery (Ephesians 3:2), to the

arrangement or admininstrtion (fellowship) by God, by which in the fulness of the times (seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ (Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:9) "fellowship" (koinonia) in 1 Timothy 1:4.

Ceallaigh · Jul 1, 2021

The next age: everything remains exactly the same forever.

Jipsah · Jul 1, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Yet it seems you do not believe God's word when he says those who do not believe and follow His Word will not inherit the Kingdom of God?

I believe everything in God's Word, but I don't believe the conclusions you draw from it by passing it through the filter of SDA dogma.

God is sovereign and omnipotent. His will will prevail without regard to whether you believe He is able to make it so or not.

Jipsah · Jul 1, 2021

AV1611VET said:
No.

It deprives us from our freewill.

And if our "Free Will" lands us in eternal torment, well, fine. Right?

Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

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