Could God have Created a Different Universe?

Tinker Grey

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Since he alone is uncreated I think he can create anything.
I don't think that that follows.

I might be true that if such a being were to exist and it were the only such being then there might be a time when nothing else existed. As such, such a being would be the only being that could create *something*. But, it doesn't follow that it could create *anything*.
 
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Petros2015

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Petros2015

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When I was a Christian, I migrated to the ex Deo concept.

Huh.

Interesting choice ;)

upload_2021-6-30_18-12-47.png


But I get it, just being silly. It's definitely something I give serious consideration.
 
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ChetSinger

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I don't think that that follows.

I might be true that if such a being were to exist and it were the only such being then there might be a time when nothing else existed. As such, such a being would be the only being that could create *something*. But, it doesn't follow that it could create *anything*.
I'm talking above my pay grade here. But I think it does follow because I think God is akin to Aristotle's Prime Mover. Even his name, Yahweh, has been translated by scholars as "He Brings into Existence Whatever Exists" (from Yahweh | Translation, Elohim, Meaning, & Facts). So I think he is responsible for existence itself. Could he have created a different set of elementary particles at the start of this universe? Sure, because he himself isn't made of them. He "dwells in unapproachable light", which I take to be the fountainhead of existence. Who am I to put limits on the source of existence itself? Not me.
 
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Petros2015

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When I was a Christian, I migrated to the ex Deo concept.

Orthodox Theology seems to come down on that side as well (ex Deo, out of Self) vs (ex Nihlio, out of Nothing) or Buffy (ex Squilla, out of Shrimp)

"Rather than say that he created the universe out of nothing, we should
say that he created it out of his own self, which is love. We should think,
not of God the Manufacturer or God the Craftsman, but of God the
Lover. Creation is an act not so much of his free will as of his free love.
To love means to share" ~The Orthodox Way, Kallistos Ware


 
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Tinker Grey

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Orthodox Theology seems to come down on that side as well (ex Deo, out of Self) vs (ex Nihlio, out of Nothing) or Buffy (ex Squilla, out of Shrimp)

"Rather than say that he created the universe out of nothing, we should
say that he created it out of his own self, which is love. We should think,
not of God the Manufacturer or God the Craftsman, but of God the
Lover. Creation is an act not so much of his free will as of his free love.
To love means to share" ~The Orthodox Way, Kallistos Ware


Thanks for the reply.

Ex Deo solves a number of problems. One, you don't have to deal with the apparent nonsense of turning a literal nothing into a something. There was a substance and God gave of himself to make something. Has a certain poetic notion. Two, if things are of himself, then one can imagine that God's omniscience is nature itself resonating (being that it is extracted from his very nature) with himself. 3) The ability of God to act (because timeless beings acting seems to make no sense) is due to a certain god-time which we inherit as the time we perceive. (Think of a 3D object, e.g., a sphere, projected onto a 2D plane, e.g., a circle). Thus, he experiences time differently than we do but analogously to how we do. It accounts for a certain free will, his knowledge is different and more complete but perhaps allows for a certain lack of knowledge that gives us free will while he almost knows perfectly what we will do.

One could go on and on. There is certainly an appeal to ex Deo.
 
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Petros2015

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(Think of a 3D object, e.g., a sphere, projected onto a 2D plane, e.g., a circle). Thus, he experiences time differently than we do but analogously to how we do. It accounts for a certain free will, his knowledge is different and more complete but perhaps allows for a certain lack of knowledge that gives us free will while he almost knows perfectly what we will do.

Yup - "getting into another [higher] dimension gives you as an incidental benefit, a kind of x-ray vision" ~Carl Sagan (roughly at 3:30 but the whole thing is very enjoyable)


"getting into another [lower] dimension gives you a kind of tunnel-vision" ~me
 
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J_B_

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When God created the universe, did He create a universe that is the only one that He could have created or did He choose to create this universe over other different universes knowing all that would happen in this universe?

God hasn't spoken on that issue that I can think of. So I can only speculate. If you'd like to hear my speculations, I can share my thoughts.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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No.

Evidently, and also according to the scriptural text read more fully and carefully, God apparently has made us able to at least sometimes do an unpredictable choice/change in direction.

By design, as it were.

Or more simply: He made us like Himself:
John 10:34 Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods'?

God made us to be like Himself, able to make choices (meaning those choices are not all predetermined).
How can they not be all predetermined if God could have made a different universe but chose to create this one? Did God create the universe not knowing what would happen in it?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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That's my opinion, yes -- I don't think a wholly different kind of reality/universe would accomplish the same.

Your OP is asking for speculations. The answer isn't plainly stated as I read it, unless you count such things as "all things work for our good".
So you are saying you don't know? Which is a perfectly fine answer.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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For me, this question is the same as "Is the universe, as it is, the only way that the universe could be?" There are lots of events that could be otherwise -- I could plant an oak tree instead of a maple tree in my backyard, or (more significantly) a species in the ancient past could have survived instead of going extinct, etc. -- so in that way, the universe could definitely be different from what it is. But for more fundamental elements -- could the speed of light be different from what it is? could mathematics itself be different from what it is? and so on -- I really don't know how much fundamental differences like these are possible.
I don't know is an honest and acceptable answer.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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God hasn't spoken on that issue that I can think of. So I can only speculate. If you'd like to hear my speculations, I can share my thoughts.
Sure, I would be interested understanding they are speculations.
 
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Vap841

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If God couldn’t create anything he wanted at will, but was limited, it would at least make the problem of evil less difficult. That’s so difficult for me, I almost think that everyone on this planet weren’t exactly Hitlers in our past lives but we were all a bunch of jerks, and so this world of ours isn’t all bad but it does sucks in many ways. Each life you go to a world that’s relative to how good or bad you were in the previous life. Total speculation but the problem of evil does stump me. Even if atheism is true why should reality be a predator/prey system of eating, why can’t cosmic evolution create worlds where all living flesh is disgusting and toxic, and juicy & tasty protein that mimics a steak here on Earth just grows on trees? Well perhaps those worlds do get created, but not this one. Like why should an atheistic reality even be such a cruel and brutal existence? I don’t get reality being so traumatic and difficult from ANY belief system. Well I of course get it in the sense that I believe it, because I’m in it lol, but I don’t understand the why part.
 
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ChetSinger

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Ok, then if God created this universe knowing what would happen in it how do you have free will to choose God?
Is this turning into another "God is unfair" thread? I hope not.

Just because God has foreknowledge doesn't mean that everything is predestined. See 1 Samuel 23:1-14 for an example of this, where God prophesies a future that never happens. This means that God can see not only the future that happens, but other ones as well. Thus, foreknowledge doesn't necessitate predestination.

More about that here, from a scholar of the Hebrew bible:
 
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cvanwey

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for love to exist, evil had to be possible, and so would happen plenty, right along with the good things.

For mountains to exist, must craters exist? No. You can merely have valleys. And from the valley, which is neutral, you can still assess a mountain.

Same goes for 'love'. If you do not love someone, must you hate/despise them? No. You can still assess love, without imposing the opposite. You could simply just not love.

Thus, can 'good' exist without "evil"? Apparently so, as well. Apparently, only 'good' exists in Heaven. How would you know Heaven is all "good", if no "evil" exists there?.?.?.? (answer) If a still-born goes directly to Heaven, can the still-born, whom never experienced 'evil', still know they are in a perpetual state of 'good'? Apparently so.

Thus, your argument fails.

Thanx
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Is this turning into another "God is unfair" thread? I hope not.

Just because God has foreknowledge doesn't mean that everything is predestined. See 1 Samuel 23:1-14 for an example of this, where God prophesies a future that never happens. This means that God can see not only the future that happens, but other ones as well. Thus, foreknowledge doesn't necessitate predestination.

More about that here, from a scholar of the Hebrew bible:
I know. That is not the point. If God has the foreknowledge then He knew what would happen if he created this universe. If he could choose to create different universes then he chose everything that would happen to you and you have no free will.
 
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