The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

Guojing · Jun 28, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
This is shameful. You believe in two gospels. One for Jews (a gospel of faith plus works being required for salvation) and one for Gentiles (faith only being required).

But, there is only one gospel for all people including Jews and Gentiles. The kind of faith required for Jews and Gentiles will naturally result in works because it's the kind of faith that says you trust Christ with your life and will do anything for Him. Your false two gospel doctrine is not taught in scripture. The gospel preached first in Israel is the same gospel that went out to the Gentiles as well.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Clearly, Paul knew nothing of a second gospel as he only preached one gospel to Jews and Gentiles alike.

If James is not enough for you, take the verses I used from 1 John

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 John 5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Unless you want to insist that in EVERY of the above verses, John didn't mean what he say about keeping the commandments, doing righteousness, loving your brother, you cannot conclude that John is preaching the same gospel as Paul.

jgr · Jun 28, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Actually, you have inverted what the scriptures ACTUALLY say. The two examples given by the Holy Spirit in Romans 9: 7-12, to show what He meant in Romans 9:6 were BOTH examples of SOME, but not ALL of the physical seed of Abraham being the chosen seed.

The HARD TRUTH is that there is n scriptural basis for imagining that anyone who is not of the Physical seed of Abraham can be a part of "the Israel of God."

The HARD TRUTH is that you forgot this.

It's what the historic true Christian Church has always believed.

So don't forget it.

Biblewriter · Jun 28, 2021

jgr said:
The HARD TRUTH is that you forgot this.

It's what the historic true Christian Church has always believed.

So don't forget it.

What mere mortals believed or did not believe has zero bearing on what God said.
But in actual fact, most of the main tenants of Dispensationalism were clearly taught in the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy, and remained the STANDARD doctrine of the church a least into the fifth century.

jgr · Jun 28, 2021

Biblewriter said:
What mere mortals believed or did not believe has zero bearing on what God said.
But in actual fact, most of the main tenants of Dispensationalism were clearly taught in the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy, and remained the STANDARD doctrine of the church a least into the fifth century.

So tell us what was taught about Galatians 6:16.

Biblewriter · Jun 28, 2021

jgr said:
So tell us what was taught about Galatians 6:16.

Actually, in the first five centuries of Christian literature, which is as far as I studied it I do not remember seeing a comment specifically about that particular verse.

Edit:

Computer searches for the text "not all Israel" AND for the text "Israel of God" in the set "Ante-Nicene Fathers," BOTH showed exactly ZERO hits. The first one occurred once and the second one twice in the sets "Nicene and post Nicene Fathers, series 1 and series 2." But NOWHERE in ALL the volumes of all three sets did EVEN ONE of them say that the term "Israel of God" refers to "the church."

jgr · Jun 28, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Actually, in the first five centuries of Christian literature, which is as far as I studied it I do not remember seeing a comment specifically about that particular verse.

Edit:

A computer search for the text "not all Israel" in the set "Ante-Nicene Fathers," showed exactly ZERO hits.

Then provide us with a comment from within the first sixteen centuries.

Biblewriter · Jun 28, 2021

jgr said:
This provide us with a comment from within the first sixteen centuries.

If you want to falsely claim that human support adds to the authority of a scripture, you need to go back to the beginning. And this was missing in ALL the works we have of the "Early Church Fathers."

jgr · Jun 28, 2021

Biblewriter said:
If you want to falsely claim that human support adds to the authority of a scripture, you need to go back to the beginning. And this was missing in ALL the works we have of the "Early Church Fathers."

You can't find even ONE comment from within the first sixteen centuries??

Let me help.

John Calvin on Galatians 6:16

Upon the Israel of God. This is an indirect ridicule of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to be so in the sight of men, and the Israel of God. Circumcision was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formerly denominated the children of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:29), and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were united into one church.

Guojing · Jun 28, 2021

Biblewriter said:
What mere mortals believed or did not believe has zero bearing on what God said.
But in actual fact, most of the main tenants of Dispensationalism were clearly taught in the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy, and remained the STANDARD doctrine of the church a least into the fifth century.

The critics forgot that the apostle Paul himself is the one that stated the term dispensation of the grace of God in Ephesians 3

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

keras · Jun 28, 2021

The whole question of who is the true Israel of God, will soon be settled.
The Prophesies plainly state that the entire Middle East region will be struck by a judgment/punishment of fire and only a remnant of Jewish believers will survive by hiding underground. Isaiah 29:1-4. Isaiah 6:11-13 and Zephaniah 1:14-18 describe this devastation very well.

If people refuse to read and understand these and many other prophesies, then they deserve to be shocked and in the dark about God's Plans for His faithful people.

jgr · Jun 29, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Actually, in the first five centuries of Christian literature, which is as far as I studied it I do not remember seeing a comment specifically about that particular verse.

Edit:

Computer searches for the text "not all Israel" AND for the text "Israel of God" in the set "Ante-Nicene Fathers," BOTH showed exactly ZERO hits. The first one occurred once and the second one twice in the sets "Nicene and post Nicene Fathers, series 1 and series 2." But NOWHERE in ALL the volumes of all three sets did EVEN ONE of them say that the term "Israel of God" refers to "the church."

Seems you forgot to search for one description which you've been so vociferously denying.

"Spiritual Israel".

Justin Martyr "Dialogue with Trypho"

For the true spiritual Israel, and the descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ.

Would you agree that "we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ" are the Church?

Biblewriter · Jun 29, 2021

jgr said:
Seems you forgot to search for one description which you've been so vociferously denying.

"Spiritual Israel".

Justin Martyr "Dialogue with Trypho"

For the true spiritual Israel, and the descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ.

Would you agree that "we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ" are the Church?

Yes, I did not search for the term "spiritual Israel," because YOUR question was about what they said about a specific verse of scripture.

But then, when I gave you the results of a computer search of what the church ORIGINALLY taught, you forgot that you claimed that the church had ALWAYS taught this, and wanted to discuss doctrines from the sixteenth century, totally neglecting the HARD FACT that ideas that were new in the sixteenth century have the SAME problem as ideas that were new in the nineteenth century.

I have OFTEN pointed out that the early church taught all the main elements of BOTH Dispensationalism AND Covenant Theology. While this SOUNDS contraditctory to US, it made sense to THEM. For NEITHER of these ideas was systematized into a formal doctrine until well over a thousand years after the END of the period we call the EARLY CHURCH.

Spiritual Jew · Jun 29, 2021

Biblewriter said:
Actually, you have inverted what the scriptures ACTUALLY say. The two examples given by the Holy Spirit in Romans 9: 7-12, to show what He meant in Romans 9:6 were BOTH examples of SOME, but not ALL of the physical seed of Abraham being the chosen seed.

The HARD TRUTH is that there is n scriptural basis for imagining that anyone who is not of the Physical seed of Abraham can be a part of "the Israel of God."

The Holy Spirit also inspired Galatians 3:16-29 which you have unwisely chosen not to use to aid you in your understanding of Romans 9:6-8.

Spiritual Jew · Jun 29, 2021

Guojing said:
Galatians 2:7-9 is the KJV scripture you have to understand literally. Clearly you knew nothing of it.

I am well aware of it. It does not say that the apostles should refrain from preaching the gospel to the Gentiles. What it means is that their primary responsibility was preaching to the Jews. But, as we saw with Peter, he preached to Gentiles as well. So, Galatians 2:7-9 does nothing to support your view.

Paul preached one gospel to the Body of Christ, the gospel of the uncircumcision.

It's not "the gospel of the uncircumcision". He preached the ONE gospel TO the uncircumcision, which refers to the Gentiles.

But as agreed with Peter James and John, there is a gospel of the circumcision for the little flock, which comprised only of Jewish believers (Acts 21:18-25).

It is not "a gospel of the circumcision". They preached the ONE gospel TO the circumcision. The term "the circumcision" simply refers to the Jews. You are sadly mistaken about all of this.

Spiritual Jew · Jun 29, 2021

Guojing said:
Again, so long as you are unable to distinguish between

the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile

The little flock where there are only Jewish believers (Acts 21:18-25)

You will be unable to understand and accept my point.

I completely understand your point and I completely disagree with it. It has nothing to do with me not understanding what you're saying. What you're saying is wrong. Jesus Christ shed His blood to bring Jew and Gentile believers together as one. You are trying to keep them separated.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Acts 21:18-25 is a clear separation of the 2 groups. Did you notice Paul didn't rebuke James for insisting that Jews who believed must also be zealous for the Law (James 2:14), neither did he proclaim a curse on James for preaching another gospel from what Paul preached?

James didn't preach another gospel. He didn't preach that you had to follow the law in order to be saved.

Why are you willing to interpret Acts 21:18-25 in such a way that contradicts other passages like the one I posted above from Ephesians 2? There is no separation of Jew and Gentile believers. They are together as one because of the blood of Christ. Period. Don't try to separate what Jesus brought together as one.

Paul didn't rebuke James because there isn't anything wrong with following the law. The problem is when people think they can be saved by following the law, which is impossible because you can't be saved by works and you'd have to keep the law perfectly at all times (you'd have to be sinless). That's why Paul rebuked the Galatians (see Galatians 3) for thinking they could be saved by following the law. Not so. It is by faith that a Jew or Gentile is saved and not by works. Any gospel which teaches that you can be saved by works is a false gospel.

Spiritual Jew · Jun 29, 2021

Guojing said:
If James is not enough for you, take the verses I used from 1 John

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 John 5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Unless you want to insist that in EVERY of the above verses, John didn't mean what he say about keeping the commandments, doing righteousness, loving your brother, you cannot conclude that John is preaching the same gospel as Paul.

There is only one gospel for all people, including Jews and Gentiles. It teaches that you must have faith in Christ and believe that He died for your sins and was raised from the dead on the third day. If you truly have faith in Him, are you going to willfully disobey Him? Of course not. Are you not going to love others and love God if your faith and trust is in Christ? Of course not.

What do you think the verses you quoted mean? Do you think that John taught the Jews that they had to obey God perfectly and be sinless in order to be saved? What is this other gospel that you believe in that teaches that something besides faith and trust in Christ as one's personal Lord and Savior is required for salvation?

Biblewriter · Jun 29, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
The Holy Spirit also inspired Galatians 3:16-29 which you have unwisely chosen not to use to aid you in your understanding of Romans 9:6-8.

YOU are INTERPRETING these. and a FEW other scriptures, to MEAN what they NEVER actually SAY, even ONCE. And you are using that INTERPRETATION as a lame excuse to deny what a very large number of other scriptures EXPLICITLY say, in PLAIN, CLEAR words.

Spiritual Jew · Jun 29, 2021

Biblewriter said:
YOU are INTERPRETING these. and a FEW other scriptures, to MEAN what they NEVER actually SAY, even ONCE. And you are using that INTERPRETATION as a lame excuse to deny what a very large number of other scriptures EXPLICITLY say, in PLAIN, CLEAR words.

I am INTERPRETING the scriptures differently than you are INTERPRETING them and am not denying what any other scriptures are saying. That you have decided to ASSUME everything in scripture is written in LITERAL, EXPLICIT language is a direct CONTRADICTION of what Paul taught about scripture which is that it must be SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED (1 Corinthians 2:9-14). If everything was as EXPLICITLY stated as you wrongly believe it is, then no SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT would be required.

jgr · Jun 29, 2021

Biblewriter said:
But then, when I gave you the results of a computer search of what the church ORIGINALLY taught, you forgot that you claimed that the church had ALWAYS taught this, and wanted to discuss doctrines from the sixteenth century, totally neglecting the HARD FACT that ideas that were new in the sixteenth century have the SAME problem as ideas that were new in the nineteenth century.

There were no new ideas about the Church in the 16th century. John Calvin recognized the same Church in Scripture in the 16th century that Justin Martyr recognized in the 2nd century.

John Calvin recognized it as the "Israel of God".

Justin Martyr described it as "spiritual Israel".

Both referred to the Church.

There was and is no "problem".

These understandings were unchallenged for more than 17 centuries until the appearance of 19th century modernist dispensationalism.

It attempts to create a problem where none exists or has ever existed.

It fails abysmally.

keras · Jun 29, 2021

The simple point to be inferred from this whole issue of the Ten Lost Tribes is that the Jews are not all of Israel. God’s purpose is to let the 10 tribes which were separated in King Rehoboam’s time, to become lost to the world and the two tribes of Judah to remain visible. Deuteronomy 32:26; 2 Chronicles 10:19; Jeremiah 29:18

They both have specific tasks to fulfil, during this period of dispersion, the Church age.

Perhaps one way to identify the other Israelite tribes, besides those Jews already known, is to look for those who fear, acknowledge and love the Creator God, live by His laws and produce the fruit of good works. James 2:24.

The Caucasian, Western nations (people groups) have been identified by the historical, linguistic, archaeological and genetic research, as having a majority of descendants of Israel/Jacob. They are also the Christian nations, so this is another proof.

According to some records, at least one tribe went eastwards and I think that South Korea, because of it’s amazing Christian awakening, has quite probably, Israelite origins.

Bible prophecy clearly says that all Israel will be gathered before Jesus returns and Gods promises to the Patriarchs must be kept. Ezekiel 20:34-38 Genesis 17:6-8

Malachi 3:16-18 Then those who feared the Lord, talked together – the Lord listened.
A record was written of those who feared Him and respected His Name. They will be Mine, says the Lord of Hosts, My own possession for the Day that I appoint, I will spare them. Once more you will see the difference between those who serve God and the wicked apostate peoples.

Malachi 4:1 The Day comes; burning like a furnace, all the arrogant evildoers will be as stubble, they will be destroyed in a fiery blaze.

Malachi 4:2-3 But you, who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings and you will break loose, like calves released from a stall.

Malachi 4:3 On the Day that I take action, you will tread down the wicked, they will be as ashes under your feet.

Malachi 4:4-6 Remember the Laws given to Moses, keep all My commandments given to Israel at Sinai. Look; I will send you Elijah before the Day of the Lord. He will reconcile families and preserve the Land from the wrath of the Lord.

The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

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