FaithWillDo

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You say a FREE will is a will that can make UNCAUSED choices. There is a term that seems very vague to me. Break it down more. Give me an example of the following:

A will that has caused choices verses a will that has uncaused choices? And how do you know the difference?

Dear cfposter,
We can only know the difference by having faith and believing what God tells us. From mankind's perspective, we are unaware of the work that God does within us. We can only see the results from our choices.

Here is a example where God used Satan:

2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

So how did God "move" David? He sent Satan.

1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Satan is a spirit and he does his work within mankind. I'm sure David didn't realize that Satan was the cause of him deciding to "number Israel". But God tells us that Satan did. David's choice was "caused" by God who used Satan for this work.

Here are other verses which say God uses evil spirits in the same manner:

Judg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Isa 19:14 The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit.

Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, the FRUIT OF THEIR THOUGHTS; for they have not hearkened unto my words, and as to my law, they have rejected it.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Psa 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, To deal craftily with His servants.

God works spiritually within people to accomplish His "will" - both good and evil. This is one way presented in scripture which shows how God causes man's "will" to make the choices He desires.

Joe
 
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FaithWillDo

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Hello Joe, according to the scriptures no one receives God's Grace if they do not believe and follow God's Word (see John 3:16-21; Hebrews 10:26-31) and the scriptures teach that no one knows God by not believing his Word and doing what God's Word says according to John in 1 John 2:3-4 and James 2:17-26. So to say we have God's Spirit while not following what God's Word says according to the scriptures is not telling the truth as those who know God according to the scriptures follow God's Word. This is also demonstrated in the very Words of Jesus when he says in John 10:26-27 those who hear and follow His Voice (the Word) are His Sheep and those who are not His sheep are those who do not hear (believe) His Word and do not follow. We should be careful what we claim here if it is not supported by scripture as it is God's Word that must bear witness to our words if they are true or not. To say and claim that God's salvation is for all men who do not believe and follow God's Word is against the scriptures and the very words of God (see Matthew 22:14; Matthew 7:13-15; Matthew 7:21-23 Hebrews 10:26:28; Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Peter 2:6; 2 Peter 3:5-7; etc etc..) and is a teaching that is not biblical designed to lead all who follow it away from God and His Word. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it according to Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Something to pray about.

Dear LoveGodsWord,
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Yes, the Word says that we are to "believe" and do many other things that we cannot do. We are at the mercy of Christ to come to us and give His spiritual gifts BEFORE we can believe or have faith. He is the Savior. We cannot save ourselves as your Doctrine of Free Will states. God wants us to depend on Him for everything, especially spiritually things. We can't believe or have faith or call Jesus Lord UNLESS and UNTIL God decides to give those spiritual gifts to us. No amount of supposed "free will" can change that truth.

We are now under the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant of man's works has never made anyone righteous.

You assume that man has ability and powers that scripture specially says we DO NOT HAVE. If you read those same verses you presented in relation to Rom 3:10-11, then your understanding will change from "works' to "faith", knowing that Christ will give us all that we need, when He decides to give it to us. That is how Christ controls who and when a person will be saved. Christ is only giving the necessary gifts to His Elect in this age. All others will have to wait. Mankind has no ability from within themselves to seek and turn to Christ as you believe from your doctrine of works.
Joe
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Dear cfposter,

1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

I'll just take this verse for example. If you notice in 1 Samuel 15:26 Saul was no longer listening to God. Also notice from the verse you quoted The Spirit of the Lord departed Saul. If you do not have God's Spirit you have the devils. You are either with God or against God, those are our two choices. Matthew 12:30. The Lord withdrew His protection from Saul because Saul wasn't listening, God did not give Saul an evil spirit, that is the consequences by the choices we make when we stop listening to our Savior. God will allow us to be tempted right now to test us to see who we serve, but He doesn't send us evil spirits.
 
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Joe,

This is an odd translation (MEV)

By far, most translations say eternity in their hearts. I believe that this is closer to the Greek text.

There are good reasons why Eternity is a better choice.

Dear Carl,
The verse makes no sense using "eternity". God puts "eternity" in their hearts so that man will not find out His works. That makes no sense. The proper word is "obscurity" and only then does the verse make sense plus that understanding is fully supported by many other scriptures.

Here is one:
Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

God's truth is hidden from 100% of mankind because God has put "obscurity" in their hearts. Only those who have "received my words" can understand. And those people are the ones who have been slain by the sword of Christ and have been made into a child of God. They are the only ones who can understand. Mankind will never understand. Mankind must be destroyed and given a new birth to know God. That is why Christ must come to each of us and give us His gifts. Without those gifts, we cannot be converted (a child of the devil --> a child of God). Only the children of God can "come unto the knowledge of the truth".

Mankind must die but from that death, Christ will raise us up as a child of God who will live forever.

Joe
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Dear LoveGodsWord,
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Which is why Jesus says truly truly I say unto you unless a man is born again he cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven.

Q1. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOMEONE THAT IS LIVING IN THE CARNAL MIND AND SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN BORN AGAIN TO WALK IN GOD'S SPIRIT?

Romans 8:1-4 [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 6:1-2 [1], What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2], God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6-7 [6], Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin. [7], For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:11-18 [11], Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12], Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13], Neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin: but yield yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [14], For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. [15], What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16], Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? [17], But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [18], Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:20-23 [20], For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. [21], What fruit had you then in those things whereof you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life. [23], For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 John 3:9-10 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

Galatians 5:16 [16], This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

..............

ANSWER: According to the scripture those who are born of God to walk in God's Spirit do not practice sin (breaking Gods law) *1 John 3:4 and do not practice fulfilling the lusts of the flesh *Galatians 5:16. They are dead to sin (disobedience to Gods' Word) and live a new life in the Spirit of God to walk in God's Word *Romans 6:1-2. They consider their old man of sin dead to sin that they should not serve sin and become from from sin *Romans 6:6-18. The fruit of sin is death *Romans 6:21 but the fruit of holiness and obedience to Gods' Word is everlasting life through our Lord Jesus Christ. Sin (breaking God's law - 1 John 3:4) therefore is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:10.

Q2. HOW DO WE KNOW IF WE REALLY KNOW GOD OR DO NOT KNOW GOD?


1 John 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:6, Whoever abides in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

Matthew 7:21-23 [21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

..............

ANSWER: Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him *1 John 2:3-4. Whosoever sins (habitual unrepentant) has not seen him and neither knows him *1 John 3:6. Only those who do the will of Gods' Word enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 7:21. Those who claim to know God while practicing sin do not know God according to Matthew 7:23.
We cannot save ourselves as your Doctrine of Free Will states. God wants us to depend on Him for everything, especially spiritually things. We can't believe or have faith or call Jesus Lord UNLESS and UNTIL God decides to give those spiritual gifts to us. No amount of supposed "free will" can change that truth.
I do not follow a doctrine that saves ourselves. I believe and follow God's Word and Gods' Word not my words say we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. As posted earlier, obedience to God's words are not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. At the second coming Christs reward is with him *Revelation 22:12.

According to the scriptures no one receives God's Grace if they do not believe and follow God's Word (see John 3:16-21; Hebrews 10:26-31) and the scriptures teach that no one knows God by not believing his Word and doing what God's Word says according to John in 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21 and James 2:17-26. So to say we have God's Spirit while not following what God's Word says according to the scriptures is not telling the truth as those who know God according to the scriptures follow God's Word. This is also demonstrated in the very Words of Jesus when he says in John 10:26-27 those who hear and follow His Voice (the Word) are His Sheep and those who are not His sheep are those who do not hear (believe) His Word and do not follow. We should be careful what we claim here if it is not supported by scripture as it is God's Word that must bear witness to our words if they are true or not. To say and claim that God's salvation is for all men who do not believe and follow God's Word is against the scriptures and the very words of God (see Matthew 22:14; Matthew 7:13-15; Matthew 7:21-23 Hebrews 10:26:28; Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Peter 2:6; 2 Peter 3:5-7; etc etc..) and is a teaching that is not biblical designed to lead all who follow it away from God and His Word. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it according to Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29.
We are now under the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant of man's works has never made anyone righteous.
We are indeed in the new covenant now. However those in the old covenant were saved the same way that we are (except the process is different) and that is by faith (see Hebrews 11:1-40).
You assume that man has ability and powers that scripture specially says we DO NOT HAVE. If you read those same verses you presented in relation to Rom 3:10-11, then your understanding will change from "works' to "faith", knowing that Christ will give us all that we need, when He decides to give it to us. That is how Christ controls who and when a person will be saved. Christ is only giving the necessary gifts to His Elect in this age. All others will have to wait. Mankind has no ability from within themselves to seek and turn to Christ as you believe from your doctrine of works.
I am sorry Joe but I assume no such thing and this only shows you are not reading my posts and the scriptures shared with you. Your not telling the truth when you say man does not have "free will" and your not telling the truth when you say scripture does not say man does not have free will especially when you have been directly shown scripture that shows man has free will to choose to believe or not believe the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ as shown to you already in post # 88 linked; post # 43 linked and post # 66 linked. What is true is that you have not provided a single scripture for the unbiblical teaching that man has no free will. We are not robots God gives all men a measure of faith *Romans 12:3 to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not believe and follow God's Word. These are Gods' Words not mine but it seems you do not believe them. Sorry Joe it seems like God's Word disagrees with you here.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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FaithWillDo

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Which is why Jesus says truly truly I say unto you unless a man is born again he cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven.

Q1. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOMEONE THAT IS LIVING IN THE CARNAL MIND AND SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN BORN AGAIN TO WALK IN GOD'S SPIRIT?

Romans 8:1-4 [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 6:1-2 [1], What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2], God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6-7 [6], Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin. [7], For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:11-18 [11], Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12], Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13], Neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin: but yield yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [14], For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. [15], What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16], Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? [17], But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [18], Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:20-23 [20], For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. [21], What fruit had you then in those things whereof you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life. [23], For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 John 3:9-10 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

Galatians 5:16 [16], This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

..............

ANSWER: According to the scripture those who are born of God to walk in God's Spirit do not practice sin (breaking Gods law) *1 John 3:4 and do not practice fulfilling the lusts of the flesh *Galatians 5:16. They are dead to sin (disobedience to Gods' Word) and live a new life in the Spirit of God to walk in God's Word *Romans 6:1-2. They consider their old man of sin dead to sin that they should not serve sin and become from from sin *Romans 6:6-18. The fruit of sin is death *Romans 6:21 but the fruit of holiness and obedience to Gods' Word is everlasting life through our Lord Jesus Christ. Sin (breaking God's law - 1 John 3:4) therefore is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:10.

Q2. HOW DO WE KNOW IF WE REALLY KNOW GOD OR DO NOT KNOW GOD?


1 John 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:6, Whoever abides in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

Matthew 7:21-23 [21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

..............

ANSWER: Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him *1 John 2:3-4. Whosoever sins (habitual unrepentant) has not seen him and neither knows him *1 John 3:6. Only those who do the will of Gods' Word enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 7:21. Those who claim to know God while practicing sin do not know God according to Matthew 7:23.

I do not follow a doctrine that saves ourselves. I believe and follow God's Word and Gods' Word not my words say we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. As posted earlier, obedience to God's words are not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. At the second coming Christs reward is with him *Revelation 22:12.

According to the scriptures no one receives God's Grace if they do not believe and follow God's Word (see John 3:16-21; Hebrews 10:26-31) and the scriptures teach that no one knows God by not believing his Word and doing what God's Word says according to John in 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21 and James 2:17-26. So to say we have God's Spirit while not following what God's Word says according to the scriptures is not telling the truth as those who know God according to the scriptures follow God's Word. This is also demonstrated in the very Words of Jesus when he says in John 10:26-27 those who hear and follow His Voice (the Word) are His Sheep and those who are not His sheep are those who do not hear (believe) His Word and do not follow. We should be careful what we claim here if it is not supported by scripture as it is God's Word that must bear witness to our words if they are true or not. To say and claim that God's salvation is for all men who do not believe and follow God's Word is against the scriptures and the very words of God (see Matthew 22:14; Matthew 7:13-15; Matthew 7:21-23 Hebrews 10:26:28; Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Peter 2:6; 2 Peter 3:5-7; etc etc..) and is a teaching that is not biblical designed to lead all who follow it away from God and His Word. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it according to Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

We are indeed in the new covenant now. However those in the old covenant were saved the same way that we are (except the process is different) and that is by faith (see Hebrews 11:1-40).

I am sorry Joe but I assume no such thing and this only shows you are not reading my posts and the scriptures shared with you. Your not telling the truth when you say man does not have "free will" and your not telling the truth when you scripture does not say man does not have free will when especially when you have been directly shown scripture that shows man has free will to choose to believe or not believe the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ as shown from the scriptures to you in post # 88 linked; post # 43 linked and post # 66 linked. What is true is that you have not provided a single scripture for the unbiblical teaching that man has no free will. We are not robots God gives all men a measure of faith *Romans 12:3 to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not believe and follow God's Word. These are Gods' Words not mine but it seems you do not believe them. Sorry Joe it seems like God's Word disagrees with you here.

Hope this is helpful.

Dear LovesGods Word,
You do not believe Rom 3:10-11, otherwise you could not believe what you believe.

Unless Christ comes to us FIRST with His gifts, no man can understand God or seek Him out. Also, mankind can NOT call Jesus "Lord" unless Christ comes to us FIRST with the gift of the Holy Spirit. All your understanding of Free Will violates the teaching of those truths. I suspect there are hundreds of verses that tell us to "believe" or "accept" or "follow" or "obey" Christ, BUT until Christ comes to us and gives us His gifts, NO MAN can can do it. Man has no Free Will power to approach God. Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ.

You have never answered my question of why you have accepted Christ and others don't.

What make you different than them?
A. You are smarter
B. You are wiser
C. You are less evil
D. Other

The scriptural answer is below:
E. Christ came to you, uninvited, and gave you a measure of faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit. He chose you, you didn't choose Him.

Joe
 
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Which is why Jesus says truly truly I say unto you unless a man is born again he cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven.

Q1. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOMEONE THAT IS LIVING IN THE CARNAL MIND AND SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN BORN AGAIN TO WALK IN GOD'S SPIRIT?

Romans 8:1-4 [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 6:1-2 [1], What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2], God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6-7 [6], Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin. [7], For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:11-18 [11], Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12], Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13], Neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin: but yield yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [14], For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. [15], What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16], Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness? [17], But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [18], Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:20-23 [20], For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. [21], What fruit had you then in those things whereof you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life. [23], For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 John 3:9-10 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

Galatians 5:16 [16], This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

..............

ANSWER: According to the scripture those who are born of God to walk in God's Spirit do not practice sin (breaking Gods law) *1 John 3:4 and do not practice fulfilling the lusts of the flesh *Galatians 5:16. They are dead to sin (disobedience to Gods' Word) and live a new life in the Spirit of God to walk in God's Word *Romans 6:1-2. They consider their old man of sin dead to sin that they should not serve sin and become from from sin *Romans 6:6-18. The fruit of sin is death *Romans 6:21 but the fruit of holiness and obedience to Gods' Word is everlasting life through our Lord Jesus Christ. Sin (breaking God's law - 1 John 3:4) therefore is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:10.

Q2. HOW DO WE KNOW IF WE REALLY KNOW GOD OR DO NOT KNOW GOD?


1 John 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:6, Whoever abides in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

Matthew 7:21-23 [21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

..............

ANSWER: Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him *1 John 2:3-4. Whosoever sins (habitual unrepentant) has not seen him and neither knows him *1 John 3:6. Only those who do the will of Gods' Word enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 7:21. Those who claim to know God while practicing sin do not know God according to Matthew 7:23.

I do not follow a doctrine that saves ourselves. I believe and follow God's Word and Gods' Word not my words say we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. As posted earlier, obedience to God's words are not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. At the second coming Christs reward is with him *Revelation 22:12.

According to the scriptures no one receives God's Grace if they do not believe and follow God's Word (see John 3:16-21; Hebrews 10:26-31) and the scriptures teach that no one knows God by not believing his Word and doing what God's Word says according to John in 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21 and James 2:17-26. So to say we have God's Spirit while not following what God's Word says according to the scriptures is not telling the truth as those who know God according to the scriptures follow God's Word. This is also demonstrated in the very Words of Jesus when he says in John 10:26-27 those who hear and follow His Voice (the Word) are His Sheep and those who are not His sheep are those who do not hear (believe) His Word and do not follow. We should be careful what we claim here if it is not supported by scripture as it is God's Word that must bear witness to our words if they are true or not. To say and claim that God's salvation is for all men who do not believe and follow God's Word is against the scriptures and the very words of God (see Matthew 22:14; Matthew 7:13-15; Matthew 7:21-23 Hebrews 10:26:28; Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Peter 2:6; 2 Peter 3:5-7; etc etc..) and is a teaching that is not biblical designed to lead all who follow it away from God and His Word. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it according to Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

We are indeed in the new covenant now. However those in the old covenant were saved the same way that we are (except the process is different) and that is by faith (see Hebrews 11:1-40).

I am sorry Joe but I assume no such thing and this only shows you are not reading my posts and the scriptures shared with you. Your not telling the truth when you say man does not have "free will" and your not telling the truth when you scripture does not say man does not have free will when especially when you have been directly shown scripture that shows man has free will to choose to believe or not believe the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ as shown from the scriptures to you in post # 88 linked; post # 43 linked and post # 66 linked. What is true is that you have not provided a single scripture for the unbiblical teaching that man has no free will. We are not robots God gives all men a measure of faith *Romans 12:3 to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not believe and follow God's Word. These are Gods' Words not mine but it seems you do not believe them. Sorry Joe it seems like God's Word disagrees with you here.

Hope this is helpful.

Dear LovesGodWord,

I have one other comment I should have made earlier:

You said:
We are indeed in the new covenant now. However those in the old covenant were saved the same way that we are (except the process is different) and that is by faith (see Hebrews 11:1-40).

Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

No one from the Old Testament has been saved yet. A few have been justified by faith, but they have not yet been sanctified by the truth nor has their Old Man been judged and destroyed. Neither have they been converted and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Until those events happen "within" them, they cannot produce the spiritual fruit that God requires of His children.

The Spirit was first given to mankind in the upper room to the Apostles. But as verse 39 says, they have received a "good report" but "not the promise". They are not saved.

The Old Testament saints will be "made perfect" by the Elect from this age and they will be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven at that time. And like all the other "lost" in the final age, they too, will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Christ's judgment) since they will not be found in the Lamb's book of life. But through that judgment, they will be made perfect.

One of the reasons God is saving His Elect in this age, is because He will use them to help bring in the full harvest of mankind in the final age. They have already had the "end of the ages comes upon them" which is the time when all mankind is saved. That is why they are called "First-Fruits" - they are gathered into the Kingdom of Heaven first.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the end of the ages are come.

Then at the end of that final age, they along with Christ, will make this call:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Elect saved in this age are the Bride of Christ. This call by the Bride and by the Spirit is made at the end of the final age. It is the time of the Feast of Tabernacles when the full harvest of mankind is gathered and brought into the barn (Kingdom of Heaven).

Christ "typed" this same call when He went down to the Feast of Tabernacles:

John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

One other point: John the Baptist is said to be the greatest "born of women" (not born of God). He was not saved and if he is not saved, no else from the Old Testament is saved either because he was the greatest born of women.


Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


Joe
 
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Carl Emerson

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The verse makes no sense using "eternity". God puts "eternity" in their hearts so that man will not find out His works. That makes so sense.

It makes important sense to me and is the word chosen by far the majority of main stream translations.

At the same time I generally agree with your take on things, but our passion for a perspective should not be at odds with the original Greek text. You don't need that verse to support your thesis.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The Spirit was first given to mankind in the upper room to the Apostles. But as verse 39 says, they have received a "good report" but "not the promise". They are not saved.

It sounds like you equate being saved with being baptised in the Holy Spirit...

Maybe we can explore this on another thread...

I believe salvation comes with the indwelling presence of God's Holy Spirit.
 
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FaithWillDo

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It makes important sense to me and is the word chosen by far the majority of main stream translations.

At the same time I generally agree with your take on things, but our passion for a perspective should not be at odds with the original Greek text. You don't need that verse to support your thesis.

Dear Carl,
Using "eternity" by itself is a very poor translation. The Greek Lexicon defines olam as meaning "what is hidden, especially in time, long duration".

Translating one language into another language cannot be perfectly done. Most translators will admit this issue. There are some words that just don't have an equivalent in another language. The Hebrew word olam seems to be one.

If I was translating it I would use "perpetual obscurity" or maybe "eternal darkness". I don't know of any single English word that carries the true meaning olam.

Most of the common versions use "eternity" or "world" but those words by themselves don't properly communicate the message of the verse. How can "eternity" cause man to not be able to understand God's work? It really doesn't make sense. Using "obscurity" by itself is close but it doesn't carry the full meaning of olam. That is why "perpetual obscurity" or "eternal darkness" might be the best fit.

I like the KJV version the best but it still has many errors in it. The most common problem comes from translator bias. The translators lean toward making scripture say what they already believe it says.

The worse translation problem with the KJV is "aion" and its adjective form "aionios". They mean "age" and "age-enduring" respectively. They should never be translated as forever or everlasting. But the translators did that because they believed in eternal punishment. I suspect you are already aware of that issue since you believe Christ is the Savior of the world.

Scripture is confined to the times of the ages. Almost nothing in scripture applies outside of that time frame. Even Christ's reign ends after the final age. Then eternity starts and virtually nothing is given to us about that time.

Joe
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Dear LovesGods Word, You do not believe Rom 3:10-11, otherwise you could not believe what you believe.
That is not true at all Joe and there is nothing that I have written anywhere that could make you think otherwise. For me, he must increase and I must decrease. I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure but many do not hear when they close their eyes to see and their ears to hear.
Unless Christ comes to us FIRST with His gifts, no man can understand God or seek Him out. Also, mankind can NOT call Jesus "Lord" unless Christ comes to us FIRST with the gift of the Holy Spirit. All your understanding of Free Will violates the teaching of those truths. I suspect there are hundreds of verses that tell us to "believe" or "accept" or "follow" or "obey" Christ, BUT until Christ comes to us and gives us His gifts, NO MAN can can do it. Man has no Free Will power to approach God. Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ.
According to the scriptures it is your understanding of "free will" that is not biblical as already shown through the scriptures in post # 88 linked and elsewhere in in post # 43 linked and post # 66 linked that you choose simply to ignore. These of course are Gods' Words not my words. We should be careful not to ignore God's Word as many did the very Words of Jesus in fulfillment of Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:13-15; Acts of the Apostles 28:25-27 and according to John 1:11. Let me ask the question though Joe, in relation to the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God *Romans 10:17 and God has given every man a measure of faith *Romans 12:3 and we are told through the scriptures that Gods grace and gospel invitation is received through faith (belief or believing Gods' Word) *John 3:16 how does it make any sense that we do not have the ability to choose to believe or not believe God's Word when God gives us the ability to believe according to the scriptures (free will)? That makes no sense right? Yet this is your argument that according to the scriptures is not biblical and a contradiction of the scriptures and the gospel of Grace. My prayer is that you will at least prayerfully consider all the scriptures that have been shared with you here that disagree with your teachings. In response you have not provided a single scripture that says man does not have free will. Therefore your house is being built on sifting sand.
You have never answered my question of why you have accepted Christ and others don't.
Really? All this time I thought it was you who was not answering a single question that I have been asking you all this time. As far as I know I have addressed everything you have provided but if I missed anything at all I am happy to discuss it. I only ask that you show the same consideration when I ask you questions.
What make you different than them?
A. You are smarter
B. You are wiser
C. You are less evil
D. Other

Well I thought I had answered this or something similar already. According to the scriptures the answer is "Other". We are all the same. the scriptures teach us in Titus 2:11 [11], For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men. That is God's gospel invitation of grace and forgiveness of sin has appear to all men through our Lord Jesus Christ. God has given every man a measure of faith according to the scriptures in Romans 12:3 and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17. It is faith that God gives all men the power to choose to believe or not believe the gospel invitation (free will). It has nothing to do about being smarter, wiser, less evil. We are saved by Gods' grace through faith, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Dear LovesGodWord,
I have one other comment I should have made earlier
Hi Joe, you really did not address anything at all in the post you are responding to but let's go through this one.
You said: We are indeed in the new covenant now. However those in the old covenant were saved the same way that we are (except the process is different) and that is by faith (see Hebrews 11:1-40). Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
No one from the Old Testament has been saved yet. A few have been justified by faith, but they have not yet been sanctified by the truth nor has their Old Man been judged and destroyed.
Your interpretation here Joe contradicts the scriptures and shows a lack of understanding of the old covenant but let me explain why I say this to you from the scriptures. Those in the old covenant were saved in the same way we are saved under the new and that is by faith. The only difference was the process. Under the old covenant every time someone sinned they had to provide an animal sacrifice as a sin offering in order to receive God's forgiveness and atonement for sin (eg. Leviticus 9:7; Leviticus 16; Leviticus 17:11 etc etc). In order to receive God's forgiveness under the old covenant, God's people had to believe their sins were forgiven every time they confessed their sins and killed the animal sacrifice for sin that was made for atonement in order to receive Gods forgiveness. These sin offerings represented Jesus as the coming Messiah and God's sacrifice for the sins of the world (see John 1:29; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). So the difference here between us living in the new covenant and those living in the old covenant is that those living under the old covenant looked by faith to the coming of the Messiah in our Lord Jesus Christ and we in the new covenant today look backwards to Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of the world as Gods' sacrifice for sin *John 1:29; 36. We are all therefore saved in the exact same way and that is by faith in God's Word.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted2 to him for righteousness.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

............

Hebrews 11 is all about righteousness by faith in God's Word...

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice showing he was righteous
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him..
Hebrews 11:7 Noah' righteousness by faith or believing Gods' Word
Hebrews 11:8 Abraham demonstrated faith by believing God's Word not knowing where he was going
Hebrews 11:9 Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all dwelling in tents heirs of the same promise
Hebrews 11:10 These all looking for a new city whos builder was God
Hebrews 11:11 Through faith Sarah believed God's Word to conceive Isaac
Hebrews 11:12 From Isaac God fulfilled his promise to Abraham in regards to his seed
Hebrews 11:13 THESE ALL DIED IN FAITH NOT RECEIVING THE PROMISE OF A BETTER PLACE
Hebrews 11:14 All those living in faith seek a better place
Hebrews 11:15 Those living in faith are not mindful of this current world and wait a better one
Hebrews 11:16 All those who live in faith desire a better that is a heavenly with God.

.............

NOTE: The context here Joe is to the promise of eternal life and the heavenly promise of a better world with God. No one receives this in this world but at the second coming according to the scriptures. It seems your interpretation of these scriptures Joe when context is added in and compared with other scriptures from the bible is not biblical. Hope this is helpful.
Neither have they been converted and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Until those events happen "within" them, they cannot produce the spiritual fruit that God requires of His children.
The Spirit was first given to mankind in the upper room to the Apostles. But as verse 39 says, they have received a "good report" but "not the promise". They are not saved.

The Old Testament saints will be "made perfect" by the Elect from this age and they will be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven at that time. And like all the other "lost" in the final age, they too, will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Christ's judgment) since they will not be found in the Lamb's book of life. But through that judgment, they will be made perfect.

One of the reasons God is saving His Elect in this age, is because He will use them to help bring in the full harvest of mankind in the final age. They have already had the "end of the ages comes upon them" which is the time when all mankind is saved. That is why they are called "First-Fruits" - they are gathered into the Kingdom of Heaven first.
You are mistaken here dear friend. It seems you do not understand the old covenant at all but allow me to ask a few questions that might help the discussion. Are you saying everyone in the old covenant is not converted, meaning they are lost? Tell me then were none of the prophets converted and receive God's Spirit? Yet the scriptures teach that all scripture that the prophets give us are given by the inspiration (God breathed) of God *2 Timothy 3:16. If no one was converted and received Gods' Spirit then we are all lost according to you. Your claims here are not biblical. Was Enoch, Noah, Elijah, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc, etc not converted and did not have God's Spirit? Perhaps you need to do more study on this one Joe. Happy to discuss more from the scriptures here if your interested. Sorry Joe it seems like God's Word disagrees with you here.


Hope this is helpful
 
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FaithWillDo

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It sounds like you equate being saved with being baptised in the Holy Spirit...

Maybe we can explore this on another thread...

I believe salvation comes with the indwelling presence of God's Holy Spirit.

Dear Carl,
The baptism the Apostles received in the upper room is the baptism that saves us. It is called by these names: the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Latter Rain and crossing the Jordan River. That is the "one baptism" that Paul was referring to in Eph 4:5:

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,...

This baptism happens at the second coming of Christ and it commences the Day of the Lord when He reigns for a thousand years. These are individual events and happen spiritually within a believer.

This would be a good subject to discuss because the pathway to salvation is very misunderstood.
Scripture lays out a long pathway to salvation that has many steps along the way.

Our complete salvation occurs when a believer is "glorified" with their spiritual body that never dies. But scripture says that we are saved when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit even though our salvation at that time is not complete. I believe the reason it says this is because of this verse:

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

After receiving the Holy Spirit at the time of the Latter Rain, our full salvation is assured so I guess that is why God says we are saved at that point. But we still have more pathway to travel which includes being sanctified, judged and given a new spiritual body.

Joe
 
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FaithWillDo

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Hi Joe, you really did not address anything at all in the post you are responding to but let's go through this one.

Your interpretation here Joe contradicts the scriptures and shows a lack of understanding of the old covenant but let me explain why I say this to you from the scriptures. Those in the old covenant were saved in the same way we are saved under the new and that is by faith. The only difference was the process. Under the old covenant every time someone sinned they had to provide an animal sacrifice as a sin offering in order to receive God's forgiveness and atonement for sin (eg. Leviticus 9:7; Leviticus 16; Leviticus 17:11 etc etc). In order to receive God's forgiveness under the old covenant, God's people had to believe their sins were forgiven every time they confessed their sins and killed the animal sacrifice for sin that was made for atonement in order to receive Gods forgiveness. These sin offerings represented Jesus as the coming Messiah and God's sacrifice for the sins of the world (see John 1:29; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). So the difference here between us living in the new covenant and those living in the old covenant is that those living under the old covenant looked by faith to the coming of the Messiah in our Lord Jesus Christ and we in the new covenant today look backwards to Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of the world as Gods' sacrifice for sin *John 1:29; 36. We are all therefore saved in the exact same way and that is by faith in God's Word.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted2 to him for righteousness.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

............

Hebrews 11 is all about righteousness by faith in God's Word...

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice showing he was righteous
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him..
Hebrews 11:7 Noah' righteousness by faith or believing Gods' Word
Hebrews 11:8 Abraham demonstrated faith by believing God's Word not knowing where he was going
Hebrews 11:9 Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all dwelling in tents heirs of the same promise
Hebrews 11:10 These all looking for a new city whos builder was God
Hebrews 11:11 Through faith Sarah believed God's Word to conceive Isaac
Hebrews 11:12 From Isaac God fulfilled his promise to Abraham in regards to his seed
Hebrews 11:13 THESE ALL DIED IN FAITH NOT RECEIVING THE PROMISE OF A BETTER PLACE
Hebrews 11:14 All those living in faith seek a better place
Hebrews 11:15 Those living in faith are not mindful of this current world and wait a better one
Hebrews 11:16 All those who live in faith desire a better that is a heavenly with God.

.............

NOTE: The context here Joe is to the promise of eternal life and the heavenly promise of a better world with God. No one receives this in this world but at the second coming according to the scriptures. It seems your interpretation of these scriptures Joe when context is added in and compared with other scriptures from the bible is not biblical. Hope this is helpful.
You are mistaken here dear friend. It seems you do not understand the old covenant at all but allow me to ask a few questions that might help the discussion. Are you saying everyone in the old covenant is not converted, meaning they are lost? Tell me then were none of the prophets converted and receive God's Spirit? Yet the scriptures teach that all scripture that the prophets give us are given by the inspiration (God breathed) of God *2 Timothy 3:16. If no one was converted and received Gods' Spirit then we are all lost according to you. Your claims here are not biblical. Was Enoch, Noah, Elijah, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc, etc not converted and did not have God's Spirit? Perhaps you need to do more study on this one Joe. Happy to discuss more from the scriptures here if your interested. Sorry Joe it seems like God's Word disagrees with you here.

Hope this is helpful

Dear LovesGodWord,
The prophets were "moved" by the Spirit but they were not baptized by the Spirit. This is a big difference. I am sure they did not even understand very much of what they wrote. How could they because they did not have the baptism of the Spirit yet. John the Baptist wasn't even sure that Jesus was the Christ late in His ministry.

Mat 11:2-3 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

And Daniel said this:

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

As for the temple sacrifices, that did make them temporarily acceptable to God but those sacrifices were only good for a year, not eternity. Only Christ's sacrifice is eternal. They are not yet covered by His blood. How could they be? They are dead and in the grave waiting for the resurrection.

Finally, you did not comment on Heb 11:39-40 that I pointed out:

Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Paul, after saying all that He did about the Old Testament fathers, He ends his comments by saying that they did not receive the promise (salvation) and have not yet been made perfect and that they won't be without the Elect who will be doing the work of Christ in the Lake of Fire age. None of them are saved yet.

They are credited with righteousness by their faith which justifies them. But our salvation is more than just being justified. We must be covered by the blood of Christ and be baptized by the Spirit. Then we must be sanctified by the truth and be JUDGED. The Old Testament fathers have experienced none of these things. But as verse 40 says, the Elect will see to it that they experience all that is necessary and be made perfect. Their salvation is certain but it won't occur until the final age, just as the salvation of the rest of mankind will. The ONLY exception are the Elect who are being saved in this present age.

This is not a difficult subject to understand. Verses 39-40 make it very clear.

Joe

 
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LoveGodsWord

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Dear LovesGodWord, The prophets were "moved" by the Spirit but they were not baptized by the Spirit. This is a big difference. I am sure they did not even understand very much of what they wrote. How could they because they did not have the baptism of the Spirit yet. John the Baptist wasn't even sure that Jesus was the Christ late in His ministry.

Mat 11:2-3 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

And Daniel said this:

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

As for the temple sacrifices, that did make them temporarily acceptable to God but those sacrifices were only good for a year, not eternity. Only Christ's sacrifice is eternal. They are not yet covered by His blood. How could they be? They are dead and in the grave waiting for the resurrection.

Finally, you did not comment on Heb 11:39-40 that I pointed out:

Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Paul, after saying all that He did about the Old Testament fathers, He ends his comments by saying that they did not receive the promise (salvation) and have not yet been made perfect and that they won't be without the Elect who will be doing the work of Christ in the Lake of Fire age. None of them are saved yet.

They are credited with righteousness by their faith which justifies them. But our salvation is more than just being justified. We must be covered by the blood of Christ and be baptized by the Spirit. Then we must be sanctified by the truth and be JUDGED. The Old Testament fathers have experienced none of these things. But as verse 40 says, the Elect will see to it that they experience all that is necessary and be made perfect. Their salvation is certain but it won't occur until the final age, just as the salvation of the rest of mankind will. The ONLY exception are the Elect who are being saved in this present age.

This is not a difficult subject to understand. Verses 39-40 make it very clear.

Joe

I see...

So according to you Joe, no one in the old covenant had God's Spirit or was converted and saved? So why did Elisha ask for a double portion of Elijah's Spirit who was not converted or had Gods' Spirit that God decided to take to heaven *2 Kings 2:9-11? Why did God translate unconverted and unsaved Enoch to heaven without seeing death *Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5? Or why did God save unconverted Noah and his family and not let them die with the rest of the unconverted world in a flood *Hebrews 11:7? Or why did God take some of the Spirit from Moses and put it on the 70 elders *Numbers 11:16?

You know we could go on and on here quoting more and more scripture that disagrees with you. You do err not knowing the scriptures if you think everyone in the old testament is lost and did not have Gods' Spirit. That is a teaching that is not biblical.

No one according to the scriptures Joe has salvation without Gods' forgiveness in order to be made righteous. What do you think righteousness by faith is?

I see your response to my posts and the scriptures provided in them once again is to simply avoid the post content and the scriptures in these posts that show why your teachings are not biblical. So we may have to agree to disagree here. Anyhow, of course you are free to believe as you wish. I will leave that between you and God to work through.

I also believe it is not a difficult subject Joe. The scripture contexts you have left out as shown in the post you were quoting from show why your claims here are not biblical but you choose to ignore this so there is not much more to be said really.

Perhaps you should take the time to see what is being shared with you.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Dear Carl,
The baptism the Apostles received in the upper room is the baptism that saves us. It is called by these names: the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Latter Rain and crossing the Jordan River. That is the "one baptism" that Paul was referring to in Eph 4:5:

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,...

This baptism happens at the second coming of Christ and it commences the Day of the Lord when He reigns for a thousand years. These are individual events and happen spiritually within a believer.

This would be a good subject to discuss because the pathway to salvation is very misunderstood.
Scripture lays out a long pathway to salvation that has many steps along the way.

Our complete salvation occurs when a believer is "glorified" with their spiritual body that never dies. But scripture says that we are saved when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit even though our salvation at that time is not complete. I believe the reason it says this is because of this verse:

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

After receiving the Holy Spirit at the time of the Latter Rain, our full salvation is assured so I guess that is why God says we are saved at that point. But we still have more pathway to travel which includes being sanctified, judged and given a new spiritual body.

Joe

Joe I am starting to wonder where your teaching has come from...

Would you mind to disclose who have been your mentors and/or what denomination you are from ?
 
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FaithWillDo

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Joe I am starting to wonder where your teaching has come from...

Would you mind to disclose who have been your mentors and/or what denomination you are from ?

Dear Carl,
Please go to my profile and read my conversion testimony. It will explain a few things about me.

The short version is I do not attend any church and haven't since 2005. I am also not associated with any group or teachers. However, the first year after my conversion, I read most of what Ray Smith had written on his website bible-truths.com. Ray is an excellent teacher on the milk of the Word and if a person wants to understand "Salvation for all" and why the Doctrine of Free Will and Hell are false teachings, that is the place to go. But beyond the milk of the Word, Ray was not blessed and has quite a bit of error. For "meat", I began studying scripture on my own.

This verse really applied to me:

Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

The truth of scripture is hidden and is only revealed to God's Elect after they received the Latter Rain. But even then, the believer must search for it as searching for hidden treasure. Over the years, the Lord has blessed me more than I ever imagined He would. He has shown me so much and given me a love to share it with others.

If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them the best I can.
Joe
 
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TedT

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Let God answer His own words…

1. Why did God create Satan, if he already knew ahead of time all the evil that Satan was going to do?

GOD says:
Isa 46:10
I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.’

Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD.

1 Timothy 2:4
...who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


IF GOD indeed knew before their creation who would end in hell, all HE had to do to fulfill HIS pleasure that everyone be saved and hell was to be empty was TO NOT CREATE THEM!! Sheesh!!! If I can figure this out, then GOD Almighty sure had it sussed!!!

If this contradicts accepted dogma about HIS omniscience then that dogma has to be revisited because it is clearly wrong! (Is that enough !!! marks yet??)

Our orthodox definition of omniscience is from the pagan Greek: GOD knows everything that can be know from eternity past to eternity future. Oh, my, how lofty and ideal except oh dear me, it contradicts the self revealed attributes of GOD's purposes. But hey - it came to the Church from those paragons of intellect, the pagan Greeks who were idolized by the early Church 'fathers' and they trump scripture every time, right?

The church dropped the ball on this one and the definition of our LORD's omniscience needs some serious reworking.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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GOD says:
Isa 46:10
I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.’

Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD.

1 Timothy 2:4
...who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


IF GOD indeed knew before their creation who would end in hell, all HE had to do to fulfill HIS pleasure that everyone be saved and hell was to be empty was TO NOT CREATE THEM!! Sheesh!!! If I can figure this out, then GOD Almighty sure had it sussed!!!

If this contradicts accepted dogma about HIS omniscience then that dogma has to be revisited because it is clearly wrong! (Is that enough !!! marks yet??)

Our orthodox definition of omniscience is from the pagan Greek: GOD knows everything that can be know from eternity past to eternity future. Oh, my, how lofty and ideal except oh dear me, it contradicts the self revealed attributes of GOD's purposes. But hey - it came to the Church from those paragons of intellect, the pagan Greeks who were idolized by the early Church 'fathers' and they trump scripture every time, right?

The church dropped the ball on this one and the definition of our LORD's omniscience needs some serious reworking.
God knows the beginning and the end, but He is still not going to take away our free will.
 
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