Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

Cormack said:

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

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Whether I do or not, my preference has got nothing to do with it.
That would be like the clay talking back to the potter - "I'd have preferred it if you'd used this colour/this texture/made me into this shape/made only a certain number of items."

I'm not about to tell God that I don't like the way that he does something, or his choices.

sawdust said:

No I don't think that is the purpose of the LoF but it would end up like that for anyone who has rejected Christ in this life and is still spiritually dead in their sin. The pain they would endure would lead them to say anything to make it stop. That's the point of what I am saying and you seem to keep missing it.

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Again, you seem to have the idea that it is torture intended to extract a confession of faith. I view it as restorative. A burning away of the bad that surrounds a person. Not a burning of the person. Wood, hay and stubble. A testing of works. Judgment, if you will.


1 Corinthians3:12-15 NRSV
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

sawdust said:

It would make a mockery of freedom.

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What freedom? The freedom of choice?

There is no freedom of choice if we can only come to Christ by the drawing of the Spirit. There is no choice for the elect, they are chosen by definition. And some are predestined for life and the others for death. Is that not a mockery of freedom?

sawdust said:

How much faith do you think the unsaved have?

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Jesus said faith the size of a mustard seed could move mountains. How much faith do they need? Is anyone saved by their quantity of faith? How are such things measured?

Silly to even split hairs over such nonsense. The atonement has already been made for all of humankind. Paid in full. Everyone is already saved. Most don't know it. This will be realized in the afterlife. The ultimate goal is redemption, reconciliation and restoration.

sawdust said:

Why do you think everyone must go through fire and what do you think it does?

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It is like a refiner's fire. It burns away the dross. Or brings it to the surface so that it can be ladled away. This description is metaphorical, of course. I don't think we are put in actual physical fire. Reminds me of this. Why doesn't the prophet cry out in pain? (it doesn't hurt) Also note the effect of this treatment.


Isaiah 6:5-8 NRSV
And I said: “Woe is me! I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”
6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me, holding a live coal that had been taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. 7 The seraph touched my mouth with it and said: “Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out.” 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I; send me!”

Strong in Him said:

I'm not about to tell God that I don't like the way that he does something, or his choices.

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Doesn't that infer that God is a cosmic tyrant? An unstable deity that would squash you like a bug if you so much as looked at him? Seems slanderous to me. The God who is full of mercy and abounding in love. But don't cross him, or he will incinerate you. Wow.

Saint Steven said:

It is like a refiner's fire. It burns away the dross. Or brings it to the surface so that it can be ladled away. This description is metaphorical, of course. I don't think we are put in actual physical fire. Reminds me of this. Why doesn't the prophet cry out in pain? (it doesn't hurt) Also note the effect of this treatment.


Isaiah 6:5-8 NRSV
And I said: “Woe is me! I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”
6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me, holding a live coal that had been taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. 7 The seraph touched my mouth with it and said: “Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out.” 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I; send me!”

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Kids: don't try this at home! Joking aside, a good example of what would have caused excruciating pain, but instead cleansed and healed.

Saint Steven said:

Doesn't that infer that God is a cosmic tyrant? An unstable deity that would squash you like a bug if you so much as looked at him? Seems slanderous to me. The God who is full of mercy and abounding in love. But don't cross him, or he will incinerate you. Wow.

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Not at all; how did you get that idea?

I don't believe God SENDS people to hell, nor that he tortures them. Your statement "don't cross him or he'll incinerate you" is not at all Scriptural.
Scripture does indeed teach that he is love, full of mercy, grace and compassion.

But if he DID, he would still be entitled to do that, because he is God, our Creator, and we are his creation who rebelled against him. And arguing and saying "I'd prefer that you didn't do that", would make no difference - that's my only point.

Strong in Him said:

Not at all; how did you get that idea?

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I can't answer that question of course, but I've heard the same from various Othodox theologians.

I don't believe God SENDS people to hell, nor that he tortures them. Your statement "don't cross him or he'll incinerate you" is not at all Scriptural.
Scripture does indeed teach that he is love, full of mercy, grace and compassion.

But if he DID, he would still be entitled to do that, because he is God, our Creator, and we are his creation who rebelled against him. And arguing and saying "I'd prefer that you didn't do that", would make no difference - that's my only point.

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It's a matter of scripture vs interpretation. Steve isn't saying the scriptures teach that, he's saying doctrine teaches that.

MMXX said:

It's a matter of scripture vs interpretation. Steve isn't saying the scriptures teach that, he's saying doctrine teaches that.

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Maybe.
I was responding to his question; "Doesn't that make God a cosmic tyrant?"

The question of the thread is; would YOU prefer it if .......?
My only point was that it's not about what I prefer - I'm in no position to argue with God if I feel that he's got it wrong.
I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of hell, nor its existence; my answer is about the principle of telling God that we might not like something he has/hasn't done, and we want an alternative.

RickReads said:

Universalism doesn`t rule out the punishment of sinners, it would just rule out the eternal punishing of sinners.

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Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: EVERLASTING
denotes everlasting" aidios excludes interruption and lays stress upon permanence and unchangeableness" (Cremer).
G126 ἀΐδιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

KJV Dictionary Definition: EVERLASTING
Lasting or enduring for ever; eternal; existing or continuing without end; immortal. The everlasting God, or Jehovah. Gen.21.

Everlasting fire; everlasting punishment. Matt.18.25.
EVERLASTING - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

(MY NOTE: 2 Bible dictionary's EVERLASTING = permanence, unchangeableness, enduring for ever, eternal, existing or continuing without end, immortal)

I many verses on everlasting/separation/fire/destruction I'll list 3 here.

Matt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

2 Thes 1:
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(MY NOTE: Eternal separation from the presence of the Lord)

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(MY NOTE: Cursed with an everlasting judgment)

An eye witnesses account given by two or more was enough to enact a death sentence. Moses, Jesus/Matthew & Paul:

Deut 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Matt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Finally:

Although Jesus sacrifice won the sin war. There is one absolute requirement on mankind's part:

FAITH/BELIEF:

Jn 3:15 That whosoever """believeth""" in Jesus should not perish, but have eternal life

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that """believeth not""" the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

Jn 5:24 Verily, I say to you, He that hears my word, & """believes""" on him that sent me, has everlasting life, shall not come into condemnation; & is passed from death unto life

Jn 6:40 This is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, & """believes""" on him, may have everlasting life: & I will raise him up at the last day

Jn 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, & the life: he that """believes""" in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live

Jn 20:31 These are written, that ye might """believe""" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; & that """believing""" ye might have life through his name

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through the name of Jesus Christ who ever """believes""" in him shall receive remission of sins

Acts 13:39 And by Jesus Christ all that """believe""" are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses

Acts 16:31 And they said, """Believe""" on the Lord Jesus Christ, & thou shalt be saved

John 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever """believes""" in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(MY NOTE: """Believers""" in the Son have everlasting life)

Unbelievers Are Condemned
John 3:18 But he that """believeth not""" is condemned already, because he hath """not believed""" in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(MY NOTE: Unbelievers in the son ARE (already-right now) & WILL BE condemned)

Believers Have Eternal Life
John 3:36 He that """believeth""" on the Son hath everlasting life & he that """believeth not""" the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(MY NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. The EVERLASTING wrath of God will remain on UNBELIEVERS)

Saint Steven said:

Again, you seem to have the idea that it is torture intended to extract a confession of faith. I view it as restorative. A burning away of the bad that surrounds a person. Not a burning of the person. Wood, hay and stubble. A testing of works. Judgment, if you will.


1 Corinthians3:12-15 NRSV
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

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I told you that is not how I view the LoF but if you want to insist on telling me it is what I think, I don't see how we can progress with this discussion.

Fire can't restore what isn't there to begin with and without faith no-one can please God. So it is not splitting hairs as one needs faith (even at the smallest amount) to be saved.

As far as your election argument? I'm not a Calvinist. I don't believe God elects who will believe and who will not believe. I believe He elects what to do with believers.

You forget that salvation is in Christ. If any man be in Christ ... maybe they are or maybe they're not. Those who reject Christ will never know salvation, the scriptures make that quite clear.

BrotherJJ said:

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: EVERLASTING
denotes everlasting" aidios excludes interruption and lays stress upon permanence and unchangeableness" (Cremer).
G126 ἀΐδιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

KJV Dictionary Definition: EVERLASTING
Lasting or enduring for ever; eternal; existing or continuing without end; immortal. The everlasting God, or Jehovah. Gen.21.

Everlasting fire; everlasting punishment. Matt.18.25.
EVERLASTING - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

(MY NOTE: 2 Bible dictionary's EVERLASTING = permanence, unchangeableness, enduring for ever, eternal, existing or continuing without end, immortal)

I many verses on everlasting/separation/fire/destruction I'll list 3 here.

Matt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

2 Thes 1:
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(MY NOTE: Eternal separation from the presence of the Lord)

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(MY NOTE: Cursed with an everlasting judgment)

An eye witnesses account given by two or more was enough to enact a death sentence. Moses, Jesus/Matthew & Paul:

Deut 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Matt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Finally:

Although Jesus sacrifice won the sin war. There is one absolute requirement on mankind's part:

FAITH/BELIEF:

Jn 3:15 That whosoever """believeth""" in Jesus should not perish, but have eternal life

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that """believeth not""" the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

Jn 5:24 Verily, I say to you, He that hears my word, & """believes""" on him that sent me, has everlasting life, shall not come into condemnation; & is passed from death unto life

Jn 6:40 This is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, & """believes""" on him, may have everlasting life: & I will raise him up at the last day

Jn 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, & the life: he that """believes""" in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live

Jn 20:31 These are written, that ye might """believe""" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; & that """believing""" ye might have life through his name

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through the name of Jesus Christ who ever """believes""" in him shall receive remission of sins

Acts 13:39 And by Jesus Christ all that """believe""" are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses

Acts 16:31 And they said, """Believe""" on the Lord Jesus Christ, & thou shalt be saved

John 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever """believes""" in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(MY NOTE: """Believers""" in the Son have everlasting life)

Unbelievers Are Condemned
John 3:18 But he that """believeth not""" is condemned already, because he hath """not believed""" in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(MY NOTE: Unbelievers in the son ARE (already-right now) & WILL BE condemned)

Believers Have Eternal Life
John 3:36 He that """believeth""" on the Son hath everlasting life & he that """believeth not""" the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(MY NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. The EVERLASTING wrath of God will remain on UNBELIEVERS)

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Wouldn't unbelievers have to have everlasting life in order to experience everlasting wrath?

sawdust said:

You forget that salvation is in Christ. If any man be in Christ ... maybe they are or maybe they're not. Those who reject Christ will never know salvation, the scriptures make that quite clear.

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Where was Jesus for the three days before his resurrection from the dead?

grasping the after wind said:

If you are of the mind that those that reject God's forgiveness will reap those benefits anyway perhaps you would like to present the evidence for that case.

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I think we can determine where you really stand on this with one question:

Do you believe Sin will be eradicated from existence some day?

Or do you believe Sin will exist forever?

MMXX said:

Wouldn't unbelievers have to have everlasting life in order to experience everlasting wrath?

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Absolutely, the OP I replied to asked this: Quote: "So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation

my reply is to ""universal reconciliation"".

The 3 scripture I shared don't dispute everlasting life. They speak to everlasting life in heaven/paradise with their Creator. Or an everlasting life of destructive/judgment & separation from Christ.

Matt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
(MY NOTE: Christ can baptize with His salvation sealing Holy Spirit of fire/judgment)

2 Thes 1:
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(MY NOTE: Eternal separation from the presence of the Lord)

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(MY NOTE: Cursed with an everlasting judgment)

BrotherJJ said:

Absolutely, the OP I replied to asked this: Quote: "So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

My reply is to ""universal reconciliation"".

The 3 scripture I shared don't dispute everlasting life. They speak to everlasting life in heaven/paradise with their Creator. Or an everlasting life of destructive/judgment & separation from Christ.

Matt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
(MY NOTE: Christ can baptize with His salvation sealing Holy Spirit of fire/judgment)

2 Thes 1:
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(MY NOTE: Eternal separation from the presence of the Lord)

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(MY NOTE: Cursed with an everlasting judgment)

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So your view is that Sin is never fully eradicated, and instead exists forever?

parousia70 said:

So your view is that Sin is never fully eradicated, and instead exists forever?

Click to expand...

My post made no such claim.

KJV Dictionary Definition: - REMISSION = (#5) Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins. Matt. 26. Heb. 9.
SANCTIFIED - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

KJV Dictionary Definition: - SALVATION = (#2). Appropriately in theology, the redemption of man from the bondage of sin and liability to eternal death, and the conferring on him everlasting happiness. This is the great salvation. (#4) Remission of sins, or saving graces. Luke 19.
SALVATION - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Simple formula to access salvation/forgiveness/complete sin pardon:

Source Amplified Bible
1 Cor 15
1 Now brothers and sisters, let me remind you [once again] of the good news [of salvation] which I preached to you, which you welcomed and accepted and on which you stand [by faith].

2 By this faith you are saved [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose], if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain [just superficially and without complete commitment].

3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],

4 and that He was buried, and that He was [bodily] raised on the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: Vrs 1-4 Recap: The gospel of Salvation is: "Christ died for our sins was buried & rose again the third day")

Rom 5:
1 Therefore, since we have been justified [that is, acquitted of sin, declared blameless before God] by faith, [let us grasp the fact that] we have peace with God [and the joy of reconciliation with Him] through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed).

2 Through Him we also have access by faith into this [remarkable state of] grace in which we [firmly and safely and securely] stand. Let us rejoice in our [a]hope and the confident assurance of [experiencing and enjoying] the glory of [our great] God [the manifestation of His excellence and power].
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: Vrs 1-2 recap: We access salvation/justification = Judicially declared righteous by a sovereign Creator God. By placing our FAITH in Jesus sin atoning sacrifice. Found in His death (sins required wage, PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Father's receipt, sins payment received & accepted.)

Once accessed it' a done deal
King James Bible Dictionary FORGIV'EN: Pardoned remitted.
FORGIVEN - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

1 Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
(MY NOTE: Believers you ARE forgiven (NOT just until your next sin) for Christ's name's sake, because He bought ALL your sis)

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(MY NOTE: Christ via the offering of his own sinless blood, entered once into heaven holy place & obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us.)

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(MY NOTE: Christ sinless payment REDEEMED believers/saints from Mosaic law sin punishment & has obtained scriptures promise of an ETERNAL inheritance)

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(NOTE: This new Christ administered order of Melchizedek sin management blood covenant is EVERLASTING!)

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
(MY NOTE: Christ PERFECTED FOREVER those that are sanctified)

Ps 37:28 For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
(MY NOTE: The Lord doesn't forsake His saints/believers, but, PRESERVES them FOREVER!)

King James Bible Dictionary REMISSION: Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins. Matt. 26. Heb. 9.
REMISS - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Eph 1:7 In Jesus Christ we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,
(MY NOTE: Believers HAVEe <Present Tense> forgiveness of sins < PURAL)

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(MY NOTE: Eph written to saints/believers (see Ehp 1:1) Are SEALED via Christ's indwelling Holy Spirit until the day of our bodily redemption)

Eph 4:32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
(MY NOTE: Written to believers see Col 1:2. Forgive each other as God thru Christ FORGAVE <Past Tense> you.)

Col 3:13 Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
(NOTE: Written to believers see Col 1:2. Vs 13 As the Lord has < Past Tense> FORGIVEN you)

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ
(MY NOTE: Believers/saints are sanctified by God & PRESERVED in Jesus Christ)

Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(MY NOTE: SAVED by GRACE thru FAITH. A GIFT from God. A gift is given, not earned)

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
(MY NOTE: NO works needed! Christ's sin atonement did all the work)

Titus 3:5 """Not by works of righteousness which we have done""", but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
(MY NOTE: We're not saved by any work we do. Salvation is a gift given & received thru FAITH & FAITH ALONE!)

II Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, & called us with an holy calling, """not according to our works""" but """according to his own purpose and grace""", which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
(MY NOTE: God SAVES because of the Great Work Jesus did. NOT because of any work we do!)

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(MY NOTE: Justified by FAITH ALONE. Void from any law keeping deeds we have done or do!)

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(MY NOTE: People claiming their salvation is achieved thru WORKS, are living in a fallen state of grace.)

BrotherJJ said:

My post made no such claim.

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You did say:
2 Thes 1:
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(MY NOTE: Eternal separation from the presence of the Lord)

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(MY NOTE: Cursed with an everlasting judgment)

I guess my question would then be, are these people freed from their Sin? or do they suffer in their sin for eternity?

BrotherJJ said:

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: EVERLASTING
denotes everlasting" aidios excludes interruption and lays stress upon permanence and unchangeableness" (Cremer).
G126 ἀΐδιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

KJV Dictionary Definition: EVERLASTING
Lasting or enduring for ever; eternal; existing or continuing without end; immortal. The everlasting God, or Jehovah. Gen.21.

Everlasting fire; everlasting punishment. Matt.18.25.
EVERLASTING - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

(MY NOTE: 2 Bible dictionary's EVERLASTING = permanence, unchangeableness, enduring for ever, eternal, existing or continuing without end, immortal)

I many verses on everlasting/separation/fire/destruction I'll list 3 here.

Matt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

2 Thes 1:
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(MY NOTE: Eternal separation from the presence of the Lord)

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(MY NOTE: Cursed with an everlasting judgment)

An eye witnesses account given by two or more was enough to enact a death sentence. Moses, Jesus/Matthew & Paul:

Deut 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Matt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Finally:

Although Jesus sacrifice won the sin war. There is one absolute requirement on mankind's part:

FAITH/BELIEF:

Jn 3:15 That whosoever """believeth""" in Jesus should not perish, but have eternal life

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that """believeth not""" the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

Jn 5:24 Verily, I say to you, He that hears my word, & """believes""" on him that sent me, has everlasting life, shall not come into condemnation; & is passed from death unto life

Jn 6:40 This is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, & """believes""" on him, may have everlasting life: & I will raise him up at the last day

Jn 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, & the life: he that """believes""" in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live

Jn 20:31 These are written, that ye might """believe""" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; & that """believing""" ye might have life through his name

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through the name of Jesus Christ who ever """believes""" in him shall receive remission of sins

Acts 13:39 And by Jesus Christ all that """believe""" are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses

Acts 16:31 And they said, """Believe""" on the Lord Jesus Christ, & thou shalt be saved

John 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever """believes""" in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(MY NOTE: """Believers""" in the Son have everlasting life)

Unbelievers Are Condemned
John 3:18 But he that """believeth not""" is condemned already, because he hath """not believed""" in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(MY NOTE: Unbelievers in the son ARE (already-right now) & WILL BE condemned)

Believers Have Eternal Life
John 3:36 He that """believeth""" on the Son hath everlasting life & he that """believeth not""" the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(MY NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. The EVERLASTING wrath of God will remain on UNBELIEVERS)

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Hi JJ,

I`m not a universalist, I just question the doctrine of everlasting punishing. IMO your verses all point toward a punishment with permanent consequences rather than permanent punishing. This possibility could create a universal salvation.

There are verses that support this position though I`m not going to get into all that now. Frantic opposition from the no consequence universalists here has taken the fun out of it. This type of universalism is not welcome here, how dare God punish a sinner. LOL. 2nd Timothy 4 fulfilled.