How can Jesus have born future sins?

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I was out walking today, thinking about the sacrifice of Christ. Then this question arose, how Jesus could have born all sins that hadn't even been committed yet. How do you reason around this?

God knows with pinpoint precision what everyone is going to do in the future. Seeing God knows this, He is able to forgive these future sins on a provisional basis (i.e. So as to provide a way of escape) in order for man to have the capacity to receive the free will offer of the gift of eternal life and so that he may remain faithful to that gift. The gift is Jesus Christ (See: John 3:16). In other words, I don't believe God needs for the sin to exist in real time in order to forgive it because God knows it will happen. For His own Word shows that God is able to predict the future with 100% accuracy. But how can God forgive sin that has not happened in real time?

Let me give you some examples:

It would be like Rick knowing his father who is a drunk and who is abusive may beat him or say hurtful words towards him. Rick can choose ahead of time in that he forgives his father knowing that most likely what his father will do based on his past several years of behavior up until that point. Rick can choose to forgive his father ahead of time before the sin actually happens.

Or it could be like a prison guard telling James that he is going to be tortured in the next 4 hours. He knows they plan to torture him and he knows there is no way to escape this. It is a future sin. James can choose to forgive their future sin or not. It is up to James to decide. But in God's case, all sin that God sees us commit beforehand has been declared as forgiven on a Provisional basis. In other words, if humans can forgive future sins, then so can God. So I don't see an issue or problem.
 
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zoidar

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Once for all means once for all who have ever lived or will live.

This means that for them, in every moment of time, the Cross is continually working, effecting, covering, redeeming...

It is a timeless event as it's benefactors totally span time.

For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
— Hebrews 7:26-27


Hm, looking at Hebrews it seems to me "once for all" is contrasted to the priests that needed to offer up sacrifices over and over. So a better translation would be "on one occasion" or only "once", I believe.
 
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Clare73

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It was meant to cause the sensation of ...humor. Clare
As was my response to it. . .
Well, I try not to be usual-or maybe I just don't have a choice in the matter. But my role model was a carpenter, of course, and they asked the same question about Him come to think of it. And while He knew much more, of course, I've studied quite a bit myself, as a sort of labor of love. Still lacking in many areas tho unfortunately.
I kinda' like you the way you are.

(Psst! I need help with #1.)
 
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Carl Emerson

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For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
— Hebrews 7:26-27


Hm, looking at Hebrews it seems to me "once for all" is contrasted to the priests that needed to offer up sacrifices over and over. So a better translation would be "on one occasion" or only "once", I believe.

Yes - I agree and the 'all' is all believers who have ever lived or will live...
 
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zoidar

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God knows with pinpoint precision what everyone is going to do in the future. Seeing God knows this, He is able to forgive these future sins on a provisional basis (i.e. So as to provide a way of escape) in order for man to have the capacity to receive the free will offer of the gift of eternal life and so that he may remain faithful to that gift. The gift is Jesus Christ (See: John 3:16). In other words, I don't believe God needs for the sin to exist in real time in order to forgive it because God knows it will happen. For His own Word shows that God is able to predict the future with 100% accuracy. But how can God forgive sin that has not happened in real time?

Let me give you some examples:

It would be like Rick knowing his father who is a drunk and who is abusive may beat him or say hurtful words towards him. Rick can choose ahead of time in that he forgives his father knowing that most likely what his father will do based on his past several years of behavior up until that point. Rick can choose to forgive his father ahead of time before the sin actually happens.

Or it could be like a prison guard telling James that he is going to be tortured in the next 4 hours. He knows they plan to torture him and he knows there is no way to escape this. It is a future sin. James can choose to forgive their future sin or not. It is up to James to decide. But in God's case, all sin that God sees us commit beforehand has been declared as forgiven on a Provisional basis. In other words, if humans can forgive future sins, then so can God. So I don't see an issue or problem.

You might be right, but it seems a bit problematic to me. It's not if it's possible for God to bear sins not yet committed, I'm sure God could do that, but is it the most reasonable explanation?
 
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Carl Emerson

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You might be right, but it seems a bit problematic to me. It's not if it's possible for God to bear sins not yet committed, I'm sure God could do that, but is it the most reasonable explanation?

The answer is that the event of the Cross was more than an event in History - It was a God event in His timelessness. It changed the ball game in the whole creation forever.
 
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You might be right, but it seems a bit problematic to me. It's not if it's possible for God to bear sins not yet committed, I'm sure God could do that, but is it the most reasonable explanation?

Well, yes. Because the Hollywood version of time is unbiblical. While no doubt God has the power to live in all points in time if He wanted to, I do not believe this is the case because that would mean God could not rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:2-3) seeing He would be doing work on some other day in either the past (Genesis 1) or in the future (John 4:34, John 19:30). Hebrews 10:12 says, “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” This verse is referring to Jesus (Who is God) and it is saying that He offered one sacrifice for sins forever. if Jesus existed in all points in time and He exists now in the past on the cross, then that would mean He would be still sacrificing Himself over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. It would mean that He did not offer Himself one time for sins forever seeing He is still sacrificing Himself repeatedly in some past dimension of time. It would mean God would be a slave to time instead of God ruling over it.

So this is why I believe God exists in linear time like men do. God is simply aware of the future with pinpoint precision, and He interacts with man in normal time. For this is what is revealed in Scripture.

So the idea that God had to physically be in the future to forgive us our sins is not necessary because we can also forgive ahead time the sins of other people before they actually commit such sins.

While I believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (so as to provide a provisional atonement), Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8, also teaches that those who worship the beast in the future do not have their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. This means that while Jesus died for the majority of the world's sins (so as to provide a way of escape if they accept His gift of eternal life and they remain faithful with that gift), the exception to the rule to Christ's atonement did not apply to those who would end up worshiping the beast in the future. For God has regarded such a sin as unredeemable.
 
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zoidar

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Well, yes. Because the Hollywood version of time is unbiblical. While no doubt God has the power to live in all points in time if He wanted to, I do not believe this is the case because that would mean God could not rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:2-3) seeing He would be doing work on some other day in either the past (Genesis 1) or in the future (John 4:34, John 19:30). Hebrews 10:12 says, “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” This verse is referring to Jesus (Who is God) and it is saying that He offered one sacrifice for sins forever. if Jesus existed in all points in time and He exists now in the past on the cross, then that would mean He would be still sacrificing Himself over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. It would mean that He did not offer Himself one time for sins forever seeing He is still sacrificing Himself repeatedly in some past dimension of time. It would mean God would be a slave to time instead of God ruling over it.

So this is why I believe God exists in linear time like men do. God is simply aware of the future with pinpoint precision, and He interacts with man in normal time. For this is what is revealed in Scripture.

So the idea that God had to physically be in the future to forgive us our sins is not necessary because we can also forgive ahead time the sins of other people before they actually commit such sins.

While I believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (so as to provide a provisional atonement), Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8, also teaches that those who worship the beast in the future do not have their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. This means that while Jesus died for the majority of the world's sins (so as to provide a way of escape if they accept His gift of eternal life and they remain faithful with that gift), the exception to the rule to Christ's atonement did not apply to those who would end up worshiping the beast in the future. For God has regarded such a sin as unredeemable.

Certainly God made provisional atonement for future sins as well. His sacrifice can surely blot out any sin. Even if Jesus didn't "bear" the future sins, he was certainly sacrificed for future sins.
 
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Certainly God made provisional atonement for future sins as well. His sacrifice can surely blot out any sin. Even if Jesus didn't "bear" the future sins, he was certainly sacrificed for future sins.

Right, I believe Jesus was sacrificed for future sins of the whole world (The majority of most people are given the chance at eternal life), but this was on a provision basis and this would not have included those who will worship the beast in the future (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8).
 
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zoidar

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Right, I believe Jesus was sacrificed for future sins of the whole world (The majority of most people are given the chance at eternal life), but this was on a provision basis and this would not have included those who will worship the beast in the future (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8).

I have no strong theology around Revelation and the beast. There are so many different ideas about it. But I do think Jesus' sacrifice was all inclusive.
 
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I have no strong theology around Revelation and the beast. There are so many different ideas about it. But I do think Jesus' sacrifice was all inclusive.

It's a matter of believing Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. What do you think these verses say?

Yes, I am not in disagreement that Jesus died for everyone else besides those who will worship the beast in the future. I believe Calvinist's view on Limited Atonement is unbiblical. The Calvinist believes Jesus only died for the Elect only. But Scripture makes it clear that He died for the sins of the whole world (i.e. He provided a provisional atonement as a way of escape and it does not mean everyone is saved even if they don't have faith in Jesus).
 
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Carl Emerson

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So this is why I believe God exists in linear time like men do. God is simply aware of the future with pinpoint precision, and He interacts with man in normal time. For this is what is revealed in Scripture.

Jesus said "before Abraham was 'I am'...
He did not say 'I was'...
In this He confirms His timeless existence.

The Father's seventh day rest is in timelessness not chronology.
We enter into eternal life and share in His sabbath rest with Him now - it is not some event in the future.

2 Peter 3:8
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

Again the scripture indicates that God is not bound by time but exists in eternity before time began.
 
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Jesus said "before Abraham was 'I am'...
He did not say 'I was'...
In this He confirms His timeless existence.

The words “I AM” is from Exodus chapter 3, which is one of the names of God.
Jesus referenced this name in John 8 to show forth His deity.
It does not suggest that God has to exist in all points in time.

The words “I am” is also used by other people in the Bible it does not mean they exist in all points in time, either.

You said:
The Father's seventh day rest is in timelessness not chronology.

God is not the author of confusion.

“And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” (Genesis 2:2-3).

In your view this passage does not mean what it says. I cannot believe it (if what you say is true). But if I were to believe this passage, it would mean God literally rested on the seventh day from all his work that He made.

In fact, under the Mosaic Law within Old Covenant, Israelites were to keep the Saturday Sabbath as a day of rest in parallel of God resting from all his work.

“For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” (Exodus 20:11).​

This would not make any sense if God did not literally rest on the seventh day.

You said:
We enter into eternal life and share in His sabbath rest with Him now - it is not some event in the future.

The saints are not in the New Earth yet. Believers have to be faithful unto death in order to make it. Eternal life can only be had conditionally by abiding in Christ.

You said:
2 Peter 3:8
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

This is God's perspective on time. A day may seem like a thousand years to Him because He is doing so many things in one day. Yet, a thousand years can also pass by and be like a day to Him because God is not subject to the aging process and decay that man has. Time can go by quick also for God. So when the Lord says He comes quickly, this is perspective of how God sees time. It does not mean God actually has to physically live in all points in time like in Time Travel movies, and or books. That is the world's thinking on how time works.

You said:
Again the scripture indicates that God is not bound by time but exists in eternity before time began.

You need to prove your case with Scripture.

Note: I used to believe as you do on this matter, but I have come to discover that this belief is unbiblical. God does not exist in all points in time because it would make Him a slave to time in that He would be doomed to repeat past events over and over and over again.

Also, if God is outside of time, then that would mean the present moment of time we are living in has already happened for God. We are just playing out another rerun like on TV?

Also, there is never a point where God is not connected to our linear time. So to say that God is outside of time is not exactly true. God is connected with communicating with mankind and He is actively involved in His creation at all times.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The words “I AM” is from Exodus chapter 3, which is one of the names of God.
Jesus referenced this name in John 8 to show forth His deity.
It does not suggest that God has to exist in all points in time.

The words “I am” is also used by other people in the Bible it does not mean they exist in all points in time, either.

Is it just possible that the Holy Spirit has not given you this revelation yet?
 
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Carl Emerson

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The words “I AM” is from Exodus chapter 3, which is one of the names of God.
Jesus referenced this name in John 8 to show forth His deity.
It does not suggest that God has to exist in all points in time.

The words “I am” is also used by other people in the Bible it does not mean they exist in all points in time, either.



God is not the author of confusion.

“And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” (Genesis 2:2-3).

In your view this passage does not mean what it says. I cannot believe it (if what you say is true). But if I were to believe this passage, it would mean God literally rested on the seventh day from all his work that He made.

In fact, under the Mosaic Law within Old Covenant, Israelites were to keep the Saturday Sabbath as a day of rest in parallel of God resting from all his work.

“For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” (Exodus 20:11).​

This would not make any sense if God did not literally rest on the seventh day.



The saints are not in the New Earth yet. Believers have to be faithful unto death in order to make it. Eternal life can only be had conditionally by abiding in Christ.



This is God's perspective on time. A day may seem like a thousand years to Him because He is doing so many things in one day. Yet, a thousand years can also pass by and be like a day to Him because God is not subject to the aging process and decay that man has. Time can go by quick also for God. So when the Lord says He comes quickly, this is perspective of how God sees time. It does not mean God actually has to physically live in all points in time like in Time Travel movies, and or books. That is the world's thinking on how time works.



You need to prove your case with Scripture.

Note: I used to believe as you do on this matter, but I have come to discover that this belief is unbiblical. God does not exist in all points in time because it would make Him a slave to time in that He would be doomed to repeat past events over and over and over again.

Also, if God is outside of time, then that would mean the present moment of time we are living in has already happened for God. We are just playing out another rerun like on TV?

Also, there is never a point where God is not connected to our linear time. So to say that God is outside of time is not exactly true. God is connected with communicating with mankind and He is actively involved in His creation at all times.

You clearly insist that the mysteries of God must be subject to 'linear thinking'

Our Loving Father of Jesus is way beyond our theologies and human theory.

Your insistence that God doe not exist outside of time is predictable given that your theories on the Sabbath don't stand if He does.

Meantime I enjoy His Sabbath Rest every day as He promised.

It is sad that you have got confused about this and even sadder that you presume to teach others and insist they cant enter His eternal rest.

My God is not 'Doomed' by being outside of time as you claim - this is an insult on His character.
 
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You clearly insist that the mysteries of God must be subject to 'linear thinking'

I am more than open to God being outside of time or in existing in all points in time.
But Scripture should reveal such a thing.
Generally most folks read their belief on fictional time travel into Scripture.

You said:
Our Loving Father of Jesus is way beyond our theologies and human theory.

Your insistence that God doe not exist outside of time is predictable given that your theories on the Sabbath don't stand if He does.

We have to remember that God is not the author of confusion. If Scripture is to make sense when we read it like in Genesis 2:2-3, and Hebrews 10:12, then we must conclude that God has chosen to exist in linear time to interact with His creation.

You said:
Meantime I enjoy His Sabbath Rest every day as He promised.

I am not a Sabbatarian (i.e. like Seventh Day Adventists).
I believe we can enjoy our Sabbath rest in Christ every day, too (Without actually observing a physical day one day out of the week).
Jesus is now our Sabbath rest but this is rest from the Old Law and not all law in general.

You said:
It is sad that you have got confused about this and even sadder that you presume to teach others and insist they cant enter His eternal rest.

We can enter into eternal life with Christ, but it has conditions involving the faith.
God does not force us to believe and or to obey Him.
We have to trust in God's grace, and we have to obey His commands to abide in the Lord in order to have eternal life.

You said:
My God is not 'Doomed' by being outside of time as you claim - this is an insult on His character.

I am not insulting by any means. It's my interpretation and understanding God's Word. If I am wrong, it was not an intentional misrepresentation of God in any way. This is just how I logically see it when I read the Scriptures. Do you honestly believe Jesus is sacrifcing Himself multiple times right now in some past dimension? If so, then how does that idea work with Hebrews 10:12?
 
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Is it just possible that the Holy Spirit has not given you this revelation yet?

I can say the same for you in what I believe on this topic. But we both cannot be right or correct.
 
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“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14).

This verse above shows that God has a past, and therefore God exists in time. The Incarnation has eternally changed the Son of God, and thus His relationship with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

Plato was the one who came up with the following terms.

- is timeless
- in an eternal now
- without sequence or succession
- without moment or duration
- atemporal and outside of time
- not was, nor will be, but only is
- has no past
- has no future.​

Of course none of these phrases are taken from the Bible.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Do you honestly believe Jesus is sacrifcing Himself multiple times right now in some past dimension?

I have never said this or thought it...

The Cross is both historical and timeless - the blood of Jesus spills right across history past, present and future.

That is why we can come to the cross at any time and appropriate it's provision of healing. (1 Peter 2:24)

That is why we can claim cleansing from sin through the blood of the Cross at any time.

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14).

This verse above shows that God has a past, and therefore God exists in time. The Incarnation has eternally changed the Son of God, and thus His relationship with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. 9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus existed in eternal time before the incarnation and was no less God during this time.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The Incarnation has eternally changed the Son of God, and thus His relationship with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

In John 17 we see Jesus referring to His unity with the Godhead - I see no scriptural support to suggest this changed as you claim.
 
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