The Error of Lordship Salvation?

Humble_Disciple said:

Martin Luther wrote that the only sin which can cause us to lose our salvation is unbelief:

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And he nailed it.

But the issue is that not all who claim/profess saving faith actually have saving faith.
Some have counterfeit faith, like Judas, and they lose faith; i.e., they never were actually saved, because counterfeit faith does not save.

So those with true faith do not lose their salvation.
Those with counterfeit faith never really had it in the first place, they just thought they did.
But their lives showed differently, by their fruits you knew they were not.

Clare73 said:

Well, it starts with accepting all that Scripture presents as from God and not setting any of them against themselves.

And what I find in the NT is two things:

1) the Scriptures you favor regarding being declared sanctified/holy through faith in Christ,
2) as well as Scriptures that command engagement in the action of a process of sanctification/holiness.

From those differences, I understand two different things from the Scriptures that are going on regarding sanctification/holiness.

There is an initial event called justification in which by faith God declares one "not guilty," in permanent right standing with his justice, righteous, sanctified (set apart from sin and for him). That is 1) above.

And then there is a life-long on-going "event" that operates in the believer, a process through obedience in the Holy Spirit, whereby he grows and matures in this initial righteousness/sanctification declared of him at his justification. That is 2) above.

In addition to being declared sanctified/holy in justification,
the NT likewise teaches being made sanctified/holy by the work of the Holy Spirit through obedience in the lives of the justified.

They are not opposed to one another, the second is the fulfillment and completion of the first.
The first is a legal declaration permanently setting one on right footing with God's justice, where there can be no claim made against one for sin.
The second is a growth process whereby one is transformed into the image of Christ, becoming more and more like one's heavenly Father, who has commanded us to be holy, because he is holy. (1 Peter 1:16)

This growth process does not determine our salvation, that has already been determined and settled.
But it will determine our fellowship with God, our closeness to him, our peace and joy in the Spirit and of our salvation, our effectiveness in ministry and service, etc.

This growth process is the natural spiritual evolvement only of the born again.
And where it is not taking place, there is no assurance that there has actually been a new birth; i.e., that one is saved.

Hope this helps.

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How much growth the believer needs for his justification to be valid? Can a baby believer be save if he abides in the holy ghost.

Philippians 1:6 says he will finish what he started.

Clare73 said:

And he nailed it.

But the issue is that not all who claim/profess saving faith actually have saving faith.
Some have counterfeit faith, like Judas, and they lose faith; i.e., they never were actually saved, because counterfeit faith does not save.

So those with true faith do not lose their salvation.
Those with counterfeit faith never really had it in the first place, they just thought they did.
But their lives showed differently, by their fruits you knew they were not.

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No, this is a warning to real believers. Faith can be lost, either by following the law instead of having a faith that works through charity. As Paul preaches to the Galatians. Or by rejecting the sonship, as Paul wrote to Timothy. They shipwreck their faith. They desire not, to be a new creation.

Oompa Loompa said:

Suggesting that baptism is a requirement for salvation is "works based salvation". Either you are wrong in your interpretation or you are ironically defending works based salvation. You are saying that the cross wasn't enough. It is the cross and getting shoved under water. Also not the same author that wrote Colossians and Galations also wrote Romans 10:9-10 which is absent of any mention of baptism.

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The cross in enough, this is why you need to be baptized into it.

GraceInChrist said:

The cross in enough, this is why you need to be baptized into it.

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Romans 10:9 says otherwise.

GraceInChrist said:

How much growth the believer needs for his justification to be valid?

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Good question.

Justification is a work of God, not man. . .so there is no issue with its immediate validity.

I think you want to know if more is needed to "keep" one's salvation/justification, right?

I don't know if you can understand this, in light of your reference points, but those who are truly saved cannot lose their rebirh/salvation.
Once you are spiritually born again by faith into eternal (God's) life, you do not lose eternal (God's) life and spritually die again.
God is the one who gave you the faith and the rebirth into eternal life, and God is the one who guarantees, through (harsh) discipline if necessary, that you keep both.

The issue is not "how much, the issue is the nature of one's "faith"--is it a "work of God," (true faith) or a "work of man" (counterfeit faith)?
We know by one's perseverance and fruits.
Counterfeit faith (usually*) does not persevere, true faith perseveres because God sees to both faith and its perseverance.
Counterfeit faith may lead a sinful lifestyle, falsely believing one is saved regardless of sin.

*[However, one can believe that salvation is by good works (counterfeit faith) and through self discipline accomplish a lifetime of them, the whole time trusting on one's own good works to save, rather than trusting on the atoning work of Jesus Christ to save, only to discover in the end that one's own works do not save, only Jesus saves. The issue is: in what are you trusting?]

Now, to your question, how much growth is needed to "keep" one's salvation?
That means, how much faith is needed, for growth in sanctificatin/justification is growth in faith.
But remember, one cannot lose the faith/salvation given by God, for God guarantees one won't, and will do what is necessary to keep one from doing so (Php 1:6).
The issue is not "how much," the issue is "true faith or counterfeit faith," for true faith will be faithful to God's own pace of growth through obedience for each beleiver.

Can a baby believer be save if he abides in the holy ghost.

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Babies cannot believe.
Scripture does not specifically speak to the salvation of babies.
The only thing in the NT that would apply is election (2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1; 2 Peter 1:10).

GraceInChrist said:

No, this is a warning to real believers. Faith can be lost, either by following the law instead of having a faith that works through charity. As Paul preaches to the Galatians. Or by rejecting the sonship, as Paul wrote to Timothy.
They shipwreck their faith. They desire not, to be a new creation.

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Yes, what they shipwrecked and lost was their counterfeit faith, which did not save in the first place..

Humble_Disciple said:

Please compare Deuteronomy 29:18-20 with Revelation 3:5.

Luther taught that apostasy is the one sin which will take away our salvation:

I believe that those who teach an extreme form of free grace theology, of
once saved, always saved, even if one falls away from the faith, are deceived.

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But keep in mind that Jesus said he shall lose none of all that the Father has given him. (John 6:39)

So those who fall away were never given to him in the first place; i.e., their faith was counterfeit, they were never saved.

"Once (actually) saved, always saved" is NT doctrine (John 6:39).

Humble_Disciple said:

Heresy is not a term that I use very often, but Lordship salvation seems so contrary to the Reformation doctrine of grace alone through faith alone that I'm tempted to condemn it. Lordship salvation teaches that one cannot receive Jesus as Savior without submitting to Him as Lord.

This appears to be a destructive heresy that confuses justification with sanctification. By faith alone, our sins are forgiven, due to the price Jesus already paid on the cross. Once saved, we are called to a life of good works, in gratitude for our salvation, rather than in fear of not earning it.

Lordship salvation teachers seem like modern-day Pharisees:



I am not saying that believers in Lordship salvation are unsaved, because only Jesus can judge their hearts. Their teaching, however, appears destructive, for turning people away who would otherwise be saved. When Jesus forgave the thief on the cross, his belief was enough.

Is this Jesus' warning for Lordship salvation teachers today?



Please note that they call Jesus "Lord," and attempt to justify themselves by their works, and Jesus' answer is "I never knew you. Depart from me."
What is the work of God that profits unto salvation?



The free grace of the Gospel goes against human reasoning. How could faith, apart from works, save us? It seems too simple, too good to be true. Paul had something to say about this:



It might seem foolish that looking at a brass snake alone saved the Israelites from dying of snake venom, but that's the provision God provided:



What is the purpose of there being rewards in heaven? | GotQuestions.org

While we enter heaven as a free gift through faith, our level of reward is based on our level of discipleship. We should take the promise of rewards seriously, but it's not the same as salvation.

Nowhere does Genesis indicate that Lot had a holy life, surrendered to God as Master of his life. And yet, according to 2 Peter 2:7, Lot was a righteous man.

This is because Lot was declared righteous by his faith, rather than by works. (Romans 4:5) We can also look at the lives of King Solomon, King David, and numerous others.

In the words of Martin Luther, “Through faith in Christ, therefore, Christ’s righteousness becomes our righteousness and all that He has becomes ours; rather, He Himself becomes ours.”

While we should live a holier life than Lot did, it’s not required for salvation. This is the difference between justification and sanctification, faith and discipleship, entering heaven and being rewarded in heaven.

While John MacArthur claims to be a Calvinist, John Calvin himself seems to have rejected Lordship salvation:



Neither was Lordship salvation taught by Martin Luther:






Neither was Lordship salvation taught by the Westminster Confession:



While those of sincere and genuine faith will eventually bear fruit, we shouldn't turn people away from salvation, simply because their fruit might not be evident to our limited perspective:



I'm sorry if I've misrepresented the teachings of Luther and Calvin. Did any of the Protestant Reformers teach Lordship salvation and, if so, can you please provide some evidence? It would be greatly appreciated.

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"
Lordship salvation
"By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10, ESV)

Lordship salvation is the position that receiving Christ involves a turning in the heart from sin and, as a part of faith, a submissive commitment to obey Jesus Christ as Lord. It also maintains that progressive sanctification and perseverance must necessarily follow conversion. Those who hold to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints see this not only as a requirement, but an assured certainty according to the sustaining grace of Christ.

The doctrine of lordship salvation has implications for evangelism, assurance, and the pursuit of holiness. The grace of God in salvation not only forgives, but transforms, and a lack of obedience or transformation in a person's life is warrant to doubt that they have been born again. The grounds for assurance include not only the objective promises of God (like John 3:16), but also the internal testimony of the Spirit (Romans 8:16) and holiness the Spirit produces in our lives (1 John 2:3-4,19).

The non-lordship salvation position is popularly known by critics as "easy believism", and by adherents as "free grace". However, proponents of Lordship salvation frown upon this usage of the term "free grace", as the free grace spoken of in the Bible both justifies the sinner and transforms the heart unto obedience."
https://www.theopedia.com/lordship-salvation

Clare73 said:

There is counterfeit faith, and there is true faith.
Only true faith saves.

Counterfeit faith talks the game, true faith walks the game.

True faith obeys. . .no obedience, no true faith, only counterfeit faith at best.

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Hebrews 11
Easy-to-Read Version
Faith
11 Faith is what makes real the things we hope for. It is proof of what we cannot see. 2 God was pleased with the people who lived a long time ago because they had faith like this.

3 Faith helps us understand that God created the whole world by his command. This means that the things we see were made by something that cannot be seen.

4 Cain and Abel both offered sacrifices to God. But Abel offered a better sacrifice to God because he had faith. God said he was pleased with what Abel offered. And so God called him a good man because he had faith. Abel died, but through his faith he is still speaking.

5 Enoch was carried away from this earth, so he never died. The Scriptures tell us that before he was carried off, he was a man who pleased God. Later, no one knew where he was, because God had taken Enoch to be with him. This all happened because he had faith. 6 Without faith no one can please God. Whoever comes to God must believe that he is real and that he rewards those who sincerely try to find him.

7 Noah was warned by God about things that he could not yet see. But he had faith and respect for God, so he built a large boat to save his family. With his faith, Noah showed that the world was wrong. And he became one of those who are made right with God through faith.

8 God called Abraham to travel to another place that he promised to give him. Abraham did not know where that other place was. But he obeyed God and started traveling because he had faith. 9 Abraham lived in the country that God promised to give him. He lived there like a visitor who did not belong. He did this because he had faith. He lived in tents with Isaac and Jacob, who also received the same promise from God. 10 Abraham was waiting for the city[a] that has real foundations. He was waiting for the city that is planned and built by God.

11 Sarah was not able to have children, and Abraham was too old. But he had faith in God, trusting him to do what he promised. And so God made them able to have children. 12 Abraham was so old he was almost dead. But from that one man came as many descendants as there are stars in the sky. So many people came from him that they are like grains of sand on the seashore.

13 All these great people continued living with faith until they died. They did not get the things God promised his people. But they were happy just to see those promises coming far in the future. They accepted the fact that they were like visitors and strangers here on earth. 14 When people accept something like that, they show they are waiting for a country that will be their own. 15 If they were thinking about the country they had left, they could have gone back. 16 But they were waiting for a better country—a heavenly country. So God is not ashamed to be called their God. And he has prepared a city for them.

17-18 God tested Abraham’s faith. God told him to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. Abraham obeyed because he had faith. He already had the promises from God. And God had already said to him, “It is through Isaac that your descendants will come.” But Abraham was ready to offer his only son. He did this because he had faith. 19 He believed that God could raise people from death. And really, when God stopped Abraham from killing Isaac, it was as if he got him back from death.

20 Isaac blessed the future of Jacob and Esau. He did that because he had faith. 21 And Jacob, also because he had faith, blessed each one of Joseph’s sons. He did this while he was dying, leaning on his rod and worshiping God.

22 And when Joseph was almost dead, he spoke about the people of Israel leaving Egypt. And he told them what they should do with his body. He did this because he had faith.

23 And the mother and father of Moses hid him for three months after he was born. They did this because they had faith. They saw that Moses was a beautiful baby. And they were not afraid to disobey the king’s order.

24-25 Moses grew up and became a man. He refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. He chose not to enjoy the pleasures of sin that last such a short time. Instead, he chose to suffer with God’s people. He did this because he had faith. 26 He thought it was better to suffer for the Messiah than to have all the treasures of Egypt. He was waiting for the reward that God would give him.

27 Moses left Egypt because he had faith. He was not afraid of the king’s anger. He continued strong as if he could see the God no one can see. 28 Moses prepared the Passover and spread the blood on the doorways of the people of Israel, so that the angel of death[c] would not kill their firstborn sons. Moses did this because he had faith.

29 And God’s people all walked through the Red Sea as if it were dry land. They were able to do this because they had faith. But when the Egyptians tried to follow them, they were drowned.

30 And the walls of Jericho fell because of the faith of God’s people. They marched around the walls for seven days, and then the walls fell.

31 And Rahab, the prostitute, welcomed the Israelite spies like friends. And because of her faith, she was not killed with the ones who refused to obey.

32 Do I need to give you more examples? I don’t have enough time to tell you about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets. 33 All of them had great faith. And with that faith they defeated kingdoms. They did what was right, and God helped them in the ways he promised. With their faith some people closed the mouths of lions. 34 And some were able to stop blazing fires. Others escaped from being killed with swords. Some who were weak were made strong. They became powerful in battle and defeated other armies. 35 There were women who lost loved ones but got them back when they were raised from death. Others were tortured but refused to accept their freedom. They did this so that they could be raised from death to a better life. 36 Some were laughed at and beaten. Others were tied up and put in prison. 37 They were killed with stones. They were cut in half. They were killed with swords. The only clothes some of them had were sheepskins or goatskins. They were poor, persecuted, and treated badly by others. 38 The world was not good enough for these great people. They had to wander in deserts and mountains, living in caves and holes in the ground.

39 God was pleased with all of them because of their faith. But not one of them received God’s great promise. 40 God planned something better for us. He wanted to make us perfect. Of course, he wanted those great people to be made perfect too, but not before we could all enjoy that blessing together.

Humble_Disciple said:

I've read that Andy Stanley, the son of Charles Stanley, has a gay-affirming church. Is this the ultimate result of non-Lordship teaching?

If unrepentant sins have nothing to do with our salvation, why shouldn't gay marriages and relationships be affirmed in the church?

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There are levels of gay "affirming" churches. Some simply recognize that people struggle with that temptation. Jesus defined Marriage as between a man and woman. The practice of homosexuality is a sin, thus a God fearing Church will not affirm out and out gay unions.

I found NPC it does not say anything concerning the gay issue one way or the other.
North Point Ministries
Frequently Asked Questions
Church Overview

On the main page under marriage ministry it shows two men and two women which could be interpreted either way, but if you follow the link the pictures clearly show male female couples.

Humble_Disciple said:

I've read that Andy Stanley, the son of Charles Stanley, has a gay-affirming church. Is this the ultimate result of non-Lordship teaching?

If unrepentant sins have nothing to do with our salvation, why shouldn't gay marriages and relationships be affirmed in the church?

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An unrepentant life style is testimony to no true faith in the first place, only counterfeit faith.