Salvation vs : service.

anna ~ grace said:

I had always wondered about that, Liturgist. Because, honestly, you don’t sound like a Protestant. I kept wondering “why in the heck doesn’t Liturgist become Orthodox already?”, and to hear that you had been with the OCA for a while makes sense.

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The funny thing is I sounded Orthodox years before I joined the OCA, because in seminary I focused on Patristics and also took some exchange courses to get away from the majority of elective courses that focused on various liberal theologies, and to avoid the cognitive dissonance of being a conservative in a liberal denomination I created an Orthodox-inspired bubble around myself, and instead of writing sermons, edited the various ancient homilies by the likes of St. Chrysostom, St. Gregory Nazianzus, St. Ephrem the Syrian, and others, as well as more recent sermons by Protestants I like, such as John Wesley, compacting them so as not to exceed 15 minutes (my notoriously short sermons were short because of the attention span of modern congregants; my theory was if I could fit a usable and coherent message, taken from an ancient homily, either part of it or the whole thing, or in the case of some short metrical homilies by the likes of St. Ephrem or Jacob of Sarugh, more than one, into 15 minutes, it would likely work, and if it failed, at least the boredom of the people would be limited.

Just out of curiosity, are you a Maronite Catholic or a convert to Orthodoxy from the Maronite church? Because one ministry I have considered, based on my enthusiasm for all forms of Lebanese, Arabic and Syriac Christianity, is forming a Maronite Orthodox Vicarate, (which would tick all three boxes) like the Western Rite Vicarates in the Antiochian church and ROCOR, not because of any disrespect for Maronite Catholics, but rather, because in the United States, I have found it incredibly hard to find Maronite parishes with traditional liturgies, and while I am not myself Maronite or even Lebanese, I love the Maronite people, and I can’t be the only one who finds this frustrating.

Also, they’ve been promising to bring back the Liturgy of Peter (Sharar) for decades now, and it still hasn’t happened, and young people will forget it, and the traditions associated with it, which are unique because unlike the other Maronite anaphoras, it is East Syriac rather than Antiochene in form, like the Assyrian or Chaldean liturgies. So if I could find a dozen or so Maronites who want the liturgy to be celebrated with traditional music, with the same reverence one associates with Antiochian Orthodox or Syriac Catholic or Chaldean liturgics, in a city with no Maronite parish that is respectful of traditional Maronite worship, including A Capella harmony and the use of some West Syriac in the liturgy, I would do it, mainly because if it was a success it would cause the Maronite churches in the Diaspora to make their liturgics more on a par with those in the Old Country.

Of course, it would be ideal if I could find a disaffected Maronite Priest or Deacon or a Maronite convert to the Antiochian church (my understanding is Maronites and Syriac Orthodox don’t get along well, like Copts and Assyrians, there is some rivalry), who shared my interest, who spoke Arabic, and who I could empower financially and otherwise (I am on good terms with bishops who would support such a venture and receive or ordain someone who wanted to do it).

But before I do that, I have to either complete my current mission of setting up a traditional Congregational church using the beautiful 19th-20th century ultra high church liturgy of Reverend John Hunter of the King’s Weigh House, to set right what the UCC is doing wrong and to atone perhaps for my not leaving the UCC sooner; it was the comma advertising campaign that made me want to leave, but due to misguided loyalty I hung on until the impending retirement of the senior pastor, so he would have time to select a replacement junior pastor and thus partially compensate for the likely very different beliefs of his replacement. But I think I should have thrown in the towel as soon as the Comma advertising campaign started, and then immediately pursued another career working for a different church.

Sidon said:

Im not a Calvinist.
Stop using your opinion as your proof text.
You can do better.

Try This, go to google that you said you need, and research : 'Pauline Theology".
Then once you understand it, (will take a while).....come back to my Threads.
Then, read them.
All will become "clear"....but not until.

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setst777 said:

Did the "The Liturgist" state that you were a Calvinist?

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Nope, I said just the opposite - that it was evident he was not a Calvinist, nor did the original post in question accuse him of Calvinism.

Sidon said:

Im not Calvinist and im also not a Legalist.

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Indeed, and no one has called you a Legalist either.

Sidon said:

Never use a symbolic verse as literal, as these are the most SPIRITUAL of all, and when you try to read them like a definition, you will end up in heresy that will destroy any chance of real faith.

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You have to read the context. Lord Jesus provides the meaning of the symbolism so that anyone would plainly understand.

John 15:8-10 (WEB)8 “In this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain (abide) in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

Sidon said:

I dont use "google search" to try to understand Theology.
I'll leave you to that pursuit.

And, Thank you for your opinion.
I'll leave you to it, also.

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I am not suggesting you do. What I am saying is that atonement is not etymologically related to the contrived phrase “at-one-ment”; and furthermore, basing a doctrinal statement around a quirk of the English language, which does not exist in Koine Greek, the language of the Gospels, or Aramaic, the language Jesus actually spoke, is not a good idea.

Sidon said:

Its interesting that a few think you said the opposite.

So, if you said "sidon is not a calvinist", you are right on the money.

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That’s exactly what I said, albeit in the first person, where “It is evident you are not a Calvinist” is clear as well polished crystal.

Sidon said:

Once a person is born again, becoming a disciple is inherent.
Its by being born again that discipleship begins.

yet, you can be a false disciple, being a follower of Christ, and yet not be born again.

Jesus said of these...>"depart from me, i never knew you".

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How do you explain the 70 disciples of Lord Jesus, whom Lord Jesus sent forth to preach, before the New Birth in the Spirit became available?

The Liturgist said:

Nope, I said just the opposite - that it was evident he was not a Calvinist, nor did the original post in question accuse him of Calvinism.

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That is correct. I know this is true.

Sidon said:

"Makes no sense "to you.
Yes, we heard you.
We see it.

Here is the thing..
If what i teach, does not make "sense" to you, when im teaching the most basic principles of "Pauline Theology"< then the issue is with your spiritual hearing, and comprehension of the Spiritual, and not with Paul's Doctrine, which is all i teach.
There is your problem.
Resolve it.

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Then why does your exegesis contradict the warnings of apostasy and also of death or sickness from partaking of the Eucharist without a sufficiently vital faith so as to discern the body and blood of our Lord, and why is it you ignore the correlation between John 3:16 and James? Logic dictates that if faith is what saves us, James warning us of the dangers of a dead faith is a warning that we could lose our salvation from lukewarm or nominal Christianity, which is to say, hypocrisy, or from apostasy.

Sidon said:

Its not a contrived phrase.
Its a fact, related to the blood of God, making His Redeemed by this Blood...'ONE" with God".

At=ONE-ment

This is exactly how it is to be understood, however, if you go to secular sites, using Google, they will not be able to agree.

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I am not going to secular sites using Google; I am going on the basis of the original first edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, my King James Bible, and my vast printed collection of sermons, homilies and catechisms originally written in English, starting with the Anglican Book of Homilies composed as a companion to the Book of Common Prayer, continuing through the Caroline Divines, Archbishop Laud, Jonathan Edwards, John Wesley, the Tractarians, Bishop Lightfoot, and reaching all the way to the saintly Rev. D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, of blessed memory.

Sidon said:

Have you ever met someone who does not define themselves as a Christian, when asked if they are one?

Here is how you spot this denominational Tool..

"are you a Christian".. ???????????????

They reply....>"Im a catholic, im a baptist, im a mormon, im a Lutheran, im a Presby, Assembly of, Pentecostal, ....

But, i didnt aske you if you are a DENOMINATiON.

I asked you if you are a "CHRISTIAN">

See that Problem?
Most believers are infected with it.

So, im also not one of those.

There is some more "polish" for you.

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I identify myself on my CF.com profile, right to the left of my posts, as a Christian. If anyone asks, I am an adherent of traditional, high-church Congregational Christianity, possibly the only extremely high church congregationalist minister who is also a traditionalist; there are other high church liturgical Congregationalists, but they are in the UCC (for example, the clergy at the Cathedral of Hope in Dallas, who are liturgical, but theologically as far away from me as anyone could possibly get). I myself do not object to the existence of denominations or communions or churches, as I prefer to call them, except for those which teach false doctrine, but among the good churches, I celebrate their diversity.

These communions are more than a grouping of like minded churches, but also a promise: if I go to a parish of the Armenian Apostolic Church, Southern Baptist Convention, or the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, or the Orthodox Church in America, or the Anglican Province of Christ the King, or the Assyrian Church of the East, or the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, or the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church, I know I am going to a traditional church which is pro life and teaches Biblical doctrine on human sexuality, and what is more, I also know the specifics of their beliefs and what their worship is going to be like. This makes them much more appealing than going to an anonymous Non-Denominational church.

There is also a mainline Protestant church called The Christian Church, which is related to another called The Disciples of Christ, so these generic terms are not as useful as you might think.

setst777 said:

From what I have seen the cross is not being left out, but rather, we see that Lord Jesus who died for our sins is frequently denied as Lord whom we are to follow.

The Scriptures are clear throughout that Lord Jesus died to save us from the penalty and power of sin over our lives - which is salvation.

Isaiah 55:7; Matthew 5:13; Matthew 5:23-26; Matthew 6:14-15; Matthew 7:21; Matthew 10:21-22; Matthew 10:32-39; Matthew 16:24-26; Matthew 19:29; Matthew 24:9-14; Matthew 24:42-51; Matthew 25:1-13; Matthew 25:31-46; Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 8:34-38; Mark 9:42-50; Mark 13:13; Mark 13:35-37; Luke 8:21; Luke 9:23-26; Luke 11:27- 28; Luke 12:8-9; Luke 12:35-48; Luke 13:3-5; Luke 13:6-9; Luke 17:32-33; Luke 18:9-14; Luke 21:19; Luke 21:34-36; Luke 24:45-48; John 3:14-17; John 3:18; John 4:13-14; John 5:24; John 6:51; John 7:37-39; John 8:31-32; John 10:27-29; John 12:25-26; John 14:15-16; John 15:5-10; John 20:30-31; Acts 10:34-35; Acts 3:19-20; Acts 14:21-22; Acts 20:18-21; Acts 20:28-32; Acts 26:19-20; Romans 6; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 8:12-13; Romans 11:19-22; 1 Corinthians 6:7-11; 1 Corinthians 9:23-27; 1 Corinthians 10:1-12; 1 Corinthians 15:1-2; 2 Corinthians 11:1-5; Galatians 3:21-22; Galatians 3:26-27; Galatians 4:9-11; Galatians 5:1-6; Galatians 5:13-26; Galatians 6:7-10; Ephesians 3:16-17; Ephesians 4:1-3; Ephesians 4:17-31; Ephesians 5:1-11; Ephesians 6:10-20; 1 Philippians 2:14-16; Philippians 3:7-11; Philippians 3:12-14; Colossians 1:21-23; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 Timothy 4:1-8; 1 Timothy 4:13-16; 1 Timothy 6:18-21; 2 Timothy 2:10-13; Hebrews 2:1-4; Hebrews 3:6-14; Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 4:1-11; Hebrews 5:8-10; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 10:19-31; Hebrews 10:35-39; Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 12:1-13; Hebrews 12:14-17; Hebrews 12:25; James 1:12-16; James 5:19-20; 1 Peter 1:5; 1 Peter 1:6-9; 1 Peter 1:13-25; 1 Peter 3:21; 2 Peter 1:10-11; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 2 Peter 2:13-15; 2 Peter 2:17-32; 2 Peter 3:11-12; 2 Peter 3:17-18; 1 John 1:6-7; 1 John 2:3-6; 1 John 2:9-11; 1 John 2:15-17; 1 John 2:24-26; 1 John 2:28-29; 1 John 3:4-12; 1 John 3:14-15; 1 John 5:3-5; 1 John 3:19-24; 2 John 5:10-14; 1 John 5:18-20; 2 John 4-6; 2 John 9; Revelation 2:24-26; Revelation 3:1-5; Revelation 3:11-12; Revelation 3:15-22; Revelation 12:11; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12-13; Revelation 16:15; Revelation 19:6-8; Revelation 21:6-8; Revelation 22:14-15; Revelation 22:17

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You put a lot of work into backing up what I said.