setst777

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"No temptation hath taken you" (Young's) And "No temptation has overtaken you" (Strong's) sounds more like falling into temptation.

I admit it seems difficult in the literal Greek to read in intelligently in some cases. You have to read the whole sentence to understand what is being said.

1 Corinthians 10:13 Young's Literal Translation
13 No temptation hath taken you -- except human; and God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able, but He will make, with the temptation, also the outlet, for your being able to bear [it].

Also, read some good commentaries on this Passage if you are having difficulty. I like to use different Bibles to get a better sense of difficult sounding Passages.
 
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setst777

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We become a Christian/disciple after we become saved.

True. Keep in mind, we are saved by repentance, and faith in Lord Jesus. When we repent, and put our faith in Jesus, we have committed to renounce the old life, and now to follow Lord Jesus. By this faith God saves us, indwelling us by His Spirit.

For instance, the 12 Disciples of Lord Jesus committed to follow Jesus, to be His disciples before ever receiving the Holy Spirit.

By the same faith by which we first received the Spirit, we are now to walk in the Spirit to put to death the deed of the body that we committed to when we first believed.
 
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Anthony2019

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Jesus said in John 15:7-9 "If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to My Father's glory that you bear much fruit, proving yourselves to be My disciples. As the Father has loved Me, so I have loved you. Remain in My love".

Jesus also said in John 15:4 "Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me".

He also warned in Matthew 7:19 that "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

St Paul wrote in Galatians 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is joy, love, peace, forbearance, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law".
 
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Ceallaigh

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True. Keep in mind, we are saved by repentance, and faith in Lord Jesus. When we repent, and put our faith in Jesus, we have committed to renounce the old life, and now to follow Lord Jesus. By this faith God saves us, indwelling us by His Spirit.

For instance, the 12 Disciples of Lord Jesus committed to follow Jesus, to be His disciples before ever receiving the Holy Spirit.

By the same faith by which we first received the Spirit, we are now to walk in the Spirit to put to death the deed of the body that we committed to when we first believed.

Most of us don't live anywhere close to the kind of life the 12 disciples lead. Most of us live ordinary lives that mainly revolve around our jobs, our pastimes, our family, our friends, our possessions, our meals, and our comforts. We refrain from being naughty, portion out some money to the ministry and the needy, spend a little time praying and reading the bible, and attend church for about 90 minutes once a week.

Be good, don't be naughty, confess when naughty (which better not happen much), put aside some time to pray and read the bible, pay tithes, help the needy some, and go to church once a week.

Is the salvation of our eternal soul really in that, or is it solely in Christ God letting His innocent blood be shed for us?
 
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What is Finished?
Answer: All that was necessary for Jesus to literally become
the Passover Lamb slain before the creation of the world.

The original Greek is in (parentheses)...

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be (ginomai) fulfilled.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be (ginomai) fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

Ginomai is "generated", according to Strong's.

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now (teleo) accomplished, that the scripture might be (teleioo) fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth.
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is (teleo) finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.

That this scripture might be fulfilled:

Exodus 12:21 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel, and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door; but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning. ... 26 And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service? 27 that ye shall say to them, "This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."

This text proves that hyssop was needed for the service of the Passover.
Jesus came to fulfill all that was written of Him concerning His first advent.

Matthew 26:12-13 For in that she hath poured this ointment on My body, she did [it] for My burial. Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this Gospel shall be preached in the whole world, [there] shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

This ointment is (myrrh). Myrrh and Frankinsense came from the wise men of (anatole) [Greece literally called Anatolia "the east"]... Smyrna, one of two blameless churches in Asia (anatolia), is (Myrrh). Frankinsense is (libanos), translated Lebanon.

John 3:16

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me.

2 Samuel 22:47 The Lord lives, and blessed be my guardian, and my God, my strong keeper, shall be exalted. 48 The Lord who avenges me is strong, chastening the nations under me, 49 and bringing me out from my enemies: and thou shalt set me on high from among those that rise up against me: thou shalt deliver me from the violent man. 50 Therefore will I confess to thee, O Lord, among the Gentiles, and sing to thy name. 51 He magnifies the salvation of his king, and works mercy for his anointed, even for David and for his seed for ever.

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for [his] mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
 
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Jesus said in John 15:7-9 "If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to My Father's glory that you bear much fruit, proving yourselves to be My disciples. As the Father has loved Me, so I have loved you. Remain in My love".

Jesus also said in John 15:4 "Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me".

He also warned in Matthew 7:19 that "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

St Paul wrote in Galatians 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is joy, love, peace, forbearance, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law".

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Context is everything.
 
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The Liturgist

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You mean its not widely known by your denomination.

No, I mean among Christian theologians as a whole. Seriously, Google it, and Google the alternate phrases I have suggested, and you will see what I mean.

I never speak specifically from the perspective of my denomination because its nearly dead, consisting of a tiny subset of a small number of churches which broke away from the United Church of Christ, or rather the Congregational Church as it was then known, in most cases, as it was too liberal, and of the tiny subset of those that are liturgical, I know for sure of only one other, but they aren’t high church liturgical in the 19th century tradtion, meaning my parish might be the only one of its kind in the world, so obviously, I am not going to use it as an example, because no one on CF.com can be expected to know anything about it. I mean, do we even have any liberal United Church of Christ members, let alone other conservative Congregationalists like me? If so, I havent seen them.

I agree.

Lets look at the phrase.

"Atonement"...this means at-one-ment.
To be as "ONE". is the correct "christian" NT Pauline Theology understanding.
I can't vouch for Websters or for the "cult of Mary", as i am not interested in their definition.

So, this explains why the world BLOOD is used with it.

As its by the Blood of Jesus, that we are made "ONE with God, in Christ".

This : "For by one offering (blood atonement) CHRIST hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.”

Notice = "perfected forever", and "ARE sanctified"...

How?
By the "blood Atonement", not by works, not by effort, not by commandments.

Only by Christ's Blood. The Blood Atonement.

At-one-ment is another nonsensical phrase which devalues your message, because as it happens, atonement means no such thing and the phrase is unrelated to the word.
 
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The Liturgist

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That's just wordplay used for effect. Like, whenever the Bible says "therefore" you should find out what it's there for.

I agree, but I think its kind of low end wordplay compared to scriptural rhetoric. I mean, if someone uses “at-one-meant” in a sermon, it just destroys it for me, because the use of that phrase xompletely distracts me from their message. At some risk of hypocrisy, because when not in the pulpit I do enjoy fancy rhetoric for its own sake, but when it comes to homiletics, whatever happened to plain speech?
 
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setst777

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Most of us don't live anywhere close to the kind of life the 12 disciples lead. Most of us live ordinary lives that mainly revolve around our jobs, our pastimes, our family, our friends, our possessions, our meals, and our comforts. We refrain from being naughty, portion out some money to the ministry and the needy, spend a little time praying and reading the bible, and attend church for about 90 minutes once a week.

Be good, don't be naughty, confess when naughty (which better not happen much), put aside some time to pray and read the bible, pay tithes, help the needy some, and go to church once a week.

Is the salvation of our eternal soul really in that, or is it solely in Christ God letting His innocent blood be shed for us?

No matter what your station is in life, whether married or single, male or female, occupation, how much money you earn, etc, if one has put his faith in Lord Jesus, he is now a disciple of Lord Jesus - a Christian. If you are not a disciple of Lord Jesus, then you are not a Christian, because "Christian" means "disciple."

What does it mean to be a Christian (disciple)?

That life is represented in Baptism, which is:
  • Dying to the old life ruled by self-serving lusts and passions at the expense of others, which includes allowing food or drink, popularity, power, money, material possession, etc to become our idol that we live for and serve. We die to this old way of life of living for the material world serving out passions and lusts.
  • We die to that old life, and we rise to a new life in Christ - a life in which we now follow Lord Jesus into a righteous life of love.
Righteousness means to treat others with care and love, helping others, doing no harm to anyone, not using or abusing others, but rather, serving others. Righteousness is to live decent and moral lives of honesty, integrity, being truthful and trustworthy.

Love is expressed in the following Passage:

1 Corinthians 13:3-8 (WEB)
3 If I give away all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but don’t have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient and is kind. Love doesn’t envy. Love doesn’t brag, is not proud, 5 doesn’t behave itself inappropriately, doesn’t seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil; 6 doesn’t rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will be done away with. Where there are various languages, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love.

Many Scriptures sum up this new life in Christ Jesus. One of those Passages is Colossians 3:1-17. Please read when you have time, and also: Romans 6:1-23; 1 Corinthians 10:1-12; Galatians 6:7-9; Ephesians 5:3-9; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 12:14-17; 1 Peter 1:13-19; Revelation 3:1-5. .

Another similar Passage is Galatians 5:13-25 as follows:

Galatians 5:13-25 (WEB)
13 For you, brothers, were called for freedom. Only do not use your freedom for gain to the flesh, but through love be servants to one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [Leviticus 19:18] 15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you don’t consume one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
 
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Ceallaigh

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No matter what your station is in life, whether married or single, male or female, occupation, how much money you earn, etc, if one has put his faith in Lord Jesus, he is now a disciple of Lord Jesus - a Christian. If you are not a disciple of Lord Jesus, then you are not a Christian, because "Christian" means "disciple."

What does it mean to be a Christian (disciple)?

That life is represented in Baptism, which is:
  • Dying to the old life ruled by self-serving lusts and passions at the expense of others, which includes allowing food or drink, popularity, power, money, material possession, etc to become our idol that we live for and serve. We die to this old way of life of living for the material world serving out passions and lusts.
  • We die to that old life, and we rise to a new life in Christ - a life in which we now follow Lord Jesus into a righteous life of love.
Righteousness means to treat others with care and love, helping others, doing no harm to anyone, not using or abusing others, but rather, serving others. Righteousness is to live decent and moral lives of honesty, integrity, being truthful and trustworthy.

Love is expressed in the following Passage:

1 Corinthians 13:3-8 (WEB)
3 If I give away all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but don’t have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient and is kind. Love doesn’t envy. Love doesn’t brag, is not proud, 5 doesn’t behave itself inappropriately, doesn’t seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil; 6 doesn’t rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will be done away with. Where there are various languages, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love.

Many Scriptures sum up this new life in Christ Jesus. One of those Passages is Colossians 3:1-17. Please read when you have time, and also: Romans 6:1-23; 1 Corinthians 10:1-12; Galatians 6:7-9; Ephesians 5:3-9; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 12:14-17; 1 Peter 1:13-19; Revelation 3:1-5. .

Another similar Passage is Galatians 5:13-25 as follows:

Galatians 5:13-25 (WEB)
13 For you, brothers, were called for freedom. Only do not use your freedom for gain to the flesh, but through love be servants to one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [Leviticus 19:18] 15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you don’t consume one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Other religions such as Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and cults like LDS and JW, and even secular mores, teach us to treat others with care and love, helping others, doing no harm to anyone, not using or abusing others, but rather, serving others. To live decent and moral lives of honesty, integrity, being truthful and trustworthy. And to abstain from adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

There are billions who follow the above formula. Will that save them? If not, what is it that will save them?
 
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setst777

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Other religions such as Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and cults like LDS and JW, and even secular mores, teach us to treat others with care and love, helping others, doing no harm to anyone, not using or abusing others, but rather, serving others. To live decent and moral lives of honesty, integrity, being truthful and trustworthy. And to abstain from adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

There are billions who follow the above formula. Will that save them? If not, what is it that will save them?

Faith in Lord Jesus, as the Scriptures teach about Him, demonstrated by following Him, is the Gospel by which we are saved.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Faith in Lord Jesus, as the Scriptures teach about Him, demonstrated by following Him, is the Gospel by which we are saved.

Faith in what about in Lord Jesus?
 
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Faith in what about in Lord Jesus?

Are you asking me to present the Gospel to you?

Faith in Lord Jesus comes from learning from the Scriptures about who He is, what He came to earth to accomplish, and includes the invitation to receive salvation through faith in that Lord Jesus.

Our decision to believe in Lord Jesus is founded on the Gospel revelation.

Please see the Gospel of John for a full presentation of the Gospel.
 
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setst777

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Are you asking me to present the Gospel to you?

Faith in Lord Jesus comes from learning from the Scriptures about who He is, what He came to earth to accomplish, and includes the invitation to receive salvation through faith in that Lord Jesus.

Our decision to believe in Lord Jesus is founded on the Gospel revelation.

The Gospel of John is an excellent Gospel presentation.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Are you asking me to present the Gospel to you?

Faith in Lord Jesus comes from learning from the Scriptures about who He is, what He came to earth to accomplish, and includes the invitation to receive salvation through faith in that Lord Jesus.

Our decision to believe in Lord Jesus is founded on the Gospel revelation.

Please see the Gospel of John for a full presentation of the Gospel.

I was trying to see if you would pinpoint the core of the gospel and our salvation.

The Gospel of John is an excellent Gospel presentation.

What's the best known verse in the Gospel of John?
 
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I was trying to see if you would pinpoint the core of the gospel and our salvation.

What's the best known verse in the Gospel of John?

The best known verse that summarizes the basic Gospel Message is John 3:16. However, to find out what is meant by terms:
  • God so loved the world
  • gave his one and only Son
  • whosever believes
  • not perish
  • eternal life
We have to study the full message of the Gospel of John to understand the meaning of each of these terms, because many people can ignorantly look at these basic terms and define them according to their own assumptions.
 
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Ceallaigh

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The best known verse that summarizes the basic Gospel Message is John 3:16. However, to find out what is meant by terms:
  • God so loved the world
  • gave his one and only Son
  • whosever believes
  • not perish
  • eternal life
We have to study the full message of the Gospel of John to understand the meaning of each of these terms, because many people can ignorantly look at these basic terms and define them according to their own assumptions.

The word gospel means good news. What is the core of the good news?
 
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The Liturgist

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That for me was even more complicated. I think C.S. Lewis might have disagreed that smoking is a sin, considering he smoked like a chimney.

In his defense, I don’t think CS Lewis can be accused of a sin for smoking in that era, because smoking was not yet recognized as a health risk, but rather a social norm. Indeed, people were unaware until nearly the repose of CS Lewis, who I consider venerable, that tobacco products are actually extremely harmful to health. Incredibly, in his youth there were doctors who advised smoking for various reasons!*


Yeah I didn't care for that at all. Although it did help spark my interest in EO which I've taken a liking to. I suppose that backfired on MacArthur where I'm concerned.

I certainly like the Orthodox view of salvation:

I agree with you entirely!

Indeed, I was actually trying to explain Orthodox soteriology in my effectively unreadable reply #42, among other things. I was also arguing that just as we need a canon for Sola Scriptura to be meaningful, because otherwise I can add and delete books until I get the doctrine I want, we need a consistent canon, or guide, based on the teachings of the early Church on how soteriology works in order for Sola Fide to make any sense.**

Footnote time, e.g. if I haven’t bored you to sleep yet, put away the hot milk and get ready to snooze...

*People commonly smoked in order to deepen their speaking voice and improve their projection (sometimes this backfires; I love Kate Mulgrew’ s acting and blame the problems with her second most popular character Captain Janeway (her most popular role is in Orange Is The New Black), on inconsistent and in many cases just sloppy writing, causing radical shifts in her competence, leadership abilities, moral and ethical rigidity, and personal behavior from one week to the next), but her gravelly smoker’s voice is an example of why smoking to improve elocution is a bad idea, and it is also seriously incongruous in the world of Star Trek and its spinoffs, where we see no trace of smoking, even among aliens (there was an extremely controversial No Smoking sign that director Nicholas Meyer demanded be included on the bridge in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, but given that film ranks with The Empire Strikes Back and Aliens as not only the best, but possibly the only good examples of sequels in science fiction cinema).

** I would further all of the Solas require a canonical explanation, which Luther, Melancthon, Calvin, Knox, and the Anglican divines from Cranmer to then present do provide, although I lament the inconsistency between the denominations themselves, the inconsistency over time, especially over the past century in the case of the mainline Protestant churches, and the inconsistency of many Protestant exegetes with their Patristic counterparts, with some notable exceptions, such as Jan Hus (who is venerated as a saint in the autocephalous Eastern Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia) and John Wesley, and several more recent figures, such as Dr. Rowan Williams. But the five solas are not actually as big a problem as some allege; many of the most vocal advocates of a given sola on this forum, on closer examination of their arguments, are either not actually using, for instance, sola scriptura, but nuda scriptura, or else relying on an authoritative third party interpreter who their denomination teaches them to listen to.
 
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Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
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John 3:16

It seems like there's such a zeal these days to preach commitment, obedience and perseverance - the Cross, the Blood and the Resurrection of Christ gets left out of the message. Greatly emphasizing Jesus' role as Lord, while downplaying or altogether avoiding Jesus as Savior through the Cross and the Resurrection. Almost as if that's just a feel good fairy tale, whereas how well we perform is what it's really all about. Just like Judaism, Islam, LDS, JW, Hinduism, Buddhism, and being Woke.
 
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