LoveGodsWord

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40 Questions against traditional Christianity and the doctrine of Hell - Answered
(Answers provided from questions asked by @Saint Steven thread here)

Who will answer?

Let me say from the start, I do not believe in hellish (as in the doctrine of hell) doctrines from the Roman Catholic Church’s teachings of eternal burning Hell fire, the state of the dead, other false doctrines of salvation in disobedience or sin. The false teachings of Universalism which is a teaching in direct opposition to the bible and teachings designed to lead others away from God and His Word. According to the scriptures Gods’ salvation is conditional on us believing and following what Gods’ Word says and that this is a hard saying for many and is why Jesus says many will be called but only the few will be the chosen ones of God and only a remnant will be saved and not the whole world.

I decided to make this thread as a response to another thread promoting the false teachings of Universalism called 40 Questions against traditional Christianity and the doctrine of Hell (linked) because if I spent all this time addressing 40 questions then my time and posts would only get lost and swallowed up and disappear in the original thread so it is better to have an OP that answers the many of the false claims and accusations provided in the original OP that poses these questions.

Let God answer His own words…

1. Why did God create Satan, if he already knew ahead of time all the evil that Satan was going to do?

God creates all of his creation with free will to choose for themselves what they will do or not do. We can of course choose to follow God or choose not to follow God according to the scriptures (Proverbs 16:9; Joshua 24:15; John 7:17; John 1:12-13; 1 Corinthians 10:13; Revelation 3:20; Deuteronomy 30:19-20; Genesis 2:16-17; James 1:13-16 etc). The knowledge of good and evil would be a foreign concept to all those who only know to do good from the heart and for someone that does not have free will. Therefore, even though God knew what Satan would do before His creation God allowed it to happen to teach us that when we do evil and sin the result is suffering against ourselves or others. For example, Joseph suffered due to the sin of his brothers, who sold him into slavery and also due to Potiphar’s wife who falsely accused him of sexual assault, which got him thrown into prison (Genesis 37-40). Job’s suffering was terrible, but God specifically said it was not due to his sin. God described him as “a blameless and upright man” in Job 1:8. God allowed him though to be tested to see if he would remain faithful to God. Jesus said of the man born blind, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him” (John 9:3). And of course, Jesus, the sinless one, was murdered on the cross for simply loving others and speaking the Words of God (the truth). Sin or disobedience to Gods’ Word therefore is the cause of all the worlds suffering. We learn from Scripture that the sin of Adam and Eve brought suffering and death (Genesis 3). Paul tells us that “sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin” (Romans 5:12). Scripture also teaches that we all sin, so we are all a part of the problem (Romans 3:23) and that sin separates us from God in Isaiah 59:2. And we are also taught that all who sin die, so we all experience the suffering that sin brings (Romans 6:23; James 1:15). But not only this sin has opened the door for powerful forces of evil to rule this world, so that Satan is now called “the god of this world” in 2 Corinthians 4:4 (John 12:31; 1 John 5:19). And even the non-human creation is disordered and broken due to sin as we read in Romans 8:20-22. So suffering and death are symptoms of sin’s work and presence in the creation and in our lives. Therefore, God wants us to follow him not because we have to but because we want to and we know what is right and what will happen if we choose to do what is wrong. God of course is not willing that any should perish but not all will choose Gods’ ways. God allowed Satan free will as he does all of His creation. God allowed Satan’s actions to play out to teach His creation about good and evil so we can understand the origin of all suffering and unhappiness is found in sin and disobedience to Gods Word and the source of all true happiness is found in believing and following what Gods’ Word say which leads us to love and helping one another.

2. If the majority of the world won’t be saved because of the work of the enemy, then doesn’t Satan win? Why would God allow this if He is “all-powerful” and “all- knowing”?


No, not at all. It is quite the opposite according to the scriptures as Satan does not win at all. Those who follow Satan, and His Angels will end up in the lake of fire at the second coming when God puts an end to all the sin and suffering in this world, where death is also destroyed and those who through faith in Gods’ Word choose to follow him are rewarded with eternal life and those who choose not to believe and follow God’s Word and reject the free gift of Gods’ dear son are destroyed according to the scriptures (see; Revelation 20:10; Revelation 20:15; Matthew 25:41-46; Hebrews 10:26-39; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 etc)

3. Who created evil in the first place? – (Isaiah 45:7)

God is the creator of all things see the answers from the previous sections in regards to free will. The Hebrew and Greek word meanings of evil have many meaning depending on the context it is used. For example in Isaiah 45:7 God is talking to King Cyrus and God uses him to bring judgement on those who reject him. Evil in this context is to adversity and affliction, and the judgements of God, not on moral wrong doing and disobedience to Gods’ Word.

4. Do earthly parents love their children more than God does? – Earthly parents would never torture their children for disobedience, nor would they annihilate them, or separate themselves from their children for all eternity.

True, God is not willing that anyone should perish but is long suffering but that all should come to repentance according to Peter in 2 Peter 3:9. This said as shown earlier there is consequences for our actions and Gods’ salvation is conditional on us believing and following what Gods’ Word says and the wages of unrepentant sin when we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God’s Word and reject it is death to all those who reject the gift of God’s dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing because they do despite to the Spirit of God’s grace *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-31; Romans 6:23. God’s salvation therefore is conditional on us believing and following what God’s Word says. If we to not believe and follow what Gods’ Word says we do not have God’s salvation and the wages of sin is death.

5. Does God actually love all people the same? If so, why are some people given thousands of chances to hear the Gospel and experience his love, while other people are born into the worst conditions, simply trying to survive and begging for food, never coming in contact with a missionary in their lives?

God knows the heart and tries the reigns every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings in Jeremiah 17:10. God see things that we never can and knows our very thoughts and feelings just like those who were destroyed in the floods in the days of Noah because their thoughts were only evil and evil continually *Genesis 6:5 or Sodom and Gomorrah that was destroyed with fire and brimstone because the suffering of man because of sin was so great *Genesis 13:13; Genesis 18:22-23. According to the scriptures God only holds us accountable to what we know not what we do not know (James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31) and this life is only a life of probation to see who will seek to know and follow God and who will seek to reject and not follow God in order to receive the eternal life to come.

6. Does God ask us to forgive our enemies when He is ultimately not willing to do the same in the end?

A question not based on scripture with a false premise. God asks us to forgive those offers mercy for all forgiveness. Luke 17:3-4 says “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.” God’s also offers forgiveness and mercy to all who seek him. God’s forgiveness and mercy is a free gift that we all receive by holding out the hand of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9; John 3:16) and is conditional on us believing and following what God’s Word says. As it is written in the scriptures “He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy (see Proverbs 28:13; 1 John 1:9). Of course we can pray for others and forgive them if they sin in ignorance and pray for others who sin against us.

7. Is being punished forever for sins committed in a short lifetime really “justice”? Or can we never understand his form of justice?


All life comes from God (Genesis 1) as God is the creator of all things in Heaven and earth *John 1:1-4; 14 and all lives belong to God who gave it. All life and love comes from God because God is love (Genesis 1; 1 John 4:8). Sin (disobedience to Gods’ Word) separates us from God who gives life to those who believe and follow him *Isaiah 59:2 and the wages of sin is death *Romans 6:23 to all those who reject the gift of God’s dear son and do not believe and follow Gods’ Word. As it is written “ He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” In 1 John 5”12 and again “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God because all have sinned and are naturally separated from God *Romans 3:9-23 and that separation leads to death in those who do not have the son, but God so loved our world and was not willing that any should perish (John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:19) but that all should come to a knowledge of how they can receive Gods’ mercy and forgiveness and be saved, that he sent his only begotten son to die the death of God’s justice and penalty for sin that we all deserve to die that by believing in Jesus and accepting his death on our behalf God’s justice and penalty for sin is now paid for by the blood of God’s dear son so that we can now receive Gods’ mercy and forgiveness. God’s free gift is now offered of forgiveness and mercy to anyone who will now receive it by holding out the hand of faith and if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us for our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It is in the cross of Christ where we see Gods’ love for all mankind that God sent his own son to die for our sins to pay the price of God’s justice for sin so that we can all now be reconciled to God. It is only in God’s justice that we can truly see Gods’ love for all mankind which is revealed in Gods’ dear son and love for all mankind.

8. If we are called to become more like God, but yet we can’t understand his justice, how can we ever strive to reflect his true character?

See previous section on how God’s justice reveals Gods love at the cross

9. Does God operate on a completely different moral scale than us? (His evil is our good, our good is his evil).. or are we truly made in his image?

According to the scriptures mankind was made in the image of God at creation and was sinless. Being sinless man was made in the image of God who was sinless. After the fall of mankind when we sinned we were separated from God (Genesis 1 to Genesis 3) and no longer made in His image (character wise as God does not sin) * see Habakkuk 1:13; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 9:28; 1 Peter 2:22. God is love *1 John 4:12-16 and everything that God does is based on love. We cannot understand God’s mind according to the scriptures because we have a selfish sinful mind (Genesis 6:5; Matthew 15:19-20; Matthew 12:34; Isaiah 1:5-6; Isaiah 55:7-9). Therefore as God is sinless and we are sinful and as God’s thoughts are so much higher than our thoughts and his ways from our ways God operates on a completely different moral scale called love *1 John 4:12-20; John 5:42.

10. If God does NOT will for anyone to perish, but already knows ahead of time that they will, why does he still create them? Knowing that they may never even have a chance to hear the Gospel?


So all creation can see and know the justice and love of God for all of His creation and the results of sin and the suffering it causes to God’s creation. Please see the previous sections. As posted earlier. All people everywhere will be judged by what we know not what we do not know (James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31.

11. Is the only purpose of this present life to make it into heaven? If so…


The purpose of life is to fulfill God’s will * Romans 8:28; Psalms 57:2; Acts of the Apostles 13:36; Colossians 1:16; Jeremiah 29:11; Jeremiah 29:19; Proverbs 16:4; Proverbs 19:21; Ephesians 2:10; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14. The purpose of life is to know God and to seek him with all of our heart (John 17:3; John 6:40; 1 John 5:11; Jeremiah 29:13.

12. Do all babies and children go to heaven? Wouldn’t it be more compassionate to abort a baby and ensure its salvation, than allow it to grow up and possibly go to hell?

No. According to the scriptures in times of ignorance God winks at but when a knowledge of the truth is come God calls all men to believe and follow it *James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31. A baby does not lose it’s salvation at death and does not go to hell according to the scriptures and it has no knowledge of good or evil so the question posed here is based on a premise that is not biblical.


..................

to be continued
 
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LoveGodsWord

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13. If God is love (1 John 4:8 ) and loves all people, and love supposedly never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8) and love is what draws people to God, how is it that the majority of humanity won’t be saved? Seems like God’s love fails most of the time.

God is a God of love and mercy but is also a God of justice and judgement and will in no wise clear the guilty *Exodus 34:7 says Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. So while God is love and loves all people God is also a God of justice and judgement of unrepentant sin and in no wise clears the guilty that do not seek His forgiveness through repentance of sin. The thing is here we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God as shown in Romans 3:9-23 and there is none of us that stand righteous before God because we are all sinners in need of Gods’ mercy because the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of Gods’ dear son *Romans 6:23. Yet God so loved the world that we see His love for all of mankind in sending us His only begotten son that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life *John 3:16. It is in God’s justice and judgement for sin that we truly see Gods’ love for all mankind because he sent his only begotten son to die on the cross for our sins so that we can receive Gods’ mercy and forgiveness of sins as a free gift because Jesus has paid the price for our sins with his own blood. It is in God’s justice and judgement for sin that we truly see Gods love for all mankind in Jesus who died and paid the penalty for our sins so that we can receive Gods’ forgiveness and be reconciled back to God who remembers our sins no more *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

14. If God truly wills for all to be saved, does God not get what God wants?

According to the scripture God is not willing that anyone should perish but that all should come to repentance by believing and following his Word and be saved 2 Peter 3:19. Sadly many love sin more than God and choose to reject the free gift of Gods’ dear son *John 3:19; Romans 6:23 and the wages of sin is death to those who reject Gods’ Word as Gods’ salvation is conditional on believing and following Gods’ Word. God gives everyone free will to choose for themselves to either accept his free gift of eternal life paid in full by the death of God’s dear son revealed in Jesus or reject his Word and keep their sins and reject God’s dear son who paid for them which his own life. In this case those who reject Christ reject life and choose the wages of sin which is death *Romans 6:23.

15. What does it mean that one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord? – Will God be forcing everyone to worship him? Or will people freely be worshipping him?

It means that all will see the love, mercy, justice and judgements of God even the wicked who choose the wages of sin for a season *Hebrews 11:25; Jude 1:15; 2 Peter 3:7-10

16. Does everybody really get the same fair chance to believe in Jesus before they die? If hell is the worst possible fate of mankind, and if God is truly loving, then…

Everyone has a fair chance in life and only God knows the heart and tries the reigns *Jeremiah 17:10 knowing who will be saved and who will not be saved. According to the scriptures each of us will be judged by what we know not what we do not know *James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31

17. Why did He fail to mention “hell” in Genesis as the price for sin?

The Catholic interpretation handed down to many Protestant Churches is not biblical. Hell is simply the grave and it is mentioned indirectly as death which is the penalty for sin. (in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die) *Genesis 3.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust3 of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

18. Why doesn’t the Old Testament ever teach about or even mention “hell”?

See previous answer Q17…

19. Why does apostle Paul never once mention hell?

See previous answer Q17…

20. Why was hell not the orthodox position of the early Church for five centuries after Christ?


See previous answer Q17…

21. Why can the most studious theologians not agree if we are saved by election or free will?

We cannot know the truth of Gods’ Word by being worldly wise and studious. Gods truth is only revealed to those who prayerfully seek him for it according to His promises *Hebrew 8:10-12; John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; John 8:31-32; 1 John 2:27. It was the scholars and so called studious of the day that crucified Christ and did not even know who he was. Yet they had the scriptures that testified of him *John 1:10-11.

22. Why do some of the most literal translations of the Bible, Young’s Literal Translation and the Concordant Literal NT, not mention “hell” or “eternal” punishment on a single page?


See previous answer Q17…

23. Which Bible am I supposed to use to derive my truth from? -Even Greek scholars cannot agree on this.

See previous answer Q21. God promises to be our guide and teacher. For me I prayerfully ask Jesus to be my guide and teacher and like to look at all translations though my primary version is KJV while using an interlinear, lexicon and Hebrew and Greek dictionaries are all very helpful but are all useless if we do not seek God’s Spirit and Jesus to be our guide and teacher of His Words which is his promise to all those who believe (see Hebrew 8:10-12; John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; John 8:31-32; 1 John 2:27).

24. Why would God purposely blind people and then send them to hell? (Exodus 4:11; John 12:39-40)


God does not purposely blind people and send them to Hell. Exodus 4:11 is only saying God is the creator of all while John 12:39-40 is in context to John 12:35-40 which is to those who are blinded by their unbelief! So the question here is framed by scripture pulled from context to make the scriptures say things that they do not say in order to support a question based on lies.

According to the scriptures however we blind ourselves by closing our eyes and ears to hearing and seeing Gods’ Word by hardening our hearts and continuing in sin that separates us from God and His Word so that he will not hear us (see Isaiah 6:9-10; Isaiah 59:2; Proverbs 28:9)

John 6:35-40 35, And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. [36], But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. [37], All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. [38], For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. [39], And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [40], And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The scriptures provided above contradict the lies framed in the question.

25. If hell was real why didn’t Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings IN THIS LIFETIME for failure to keep the Mosaic Law.

See previous answer Q17…

26. Why did God NOT clearly define that the wages of sin would be eternal damnation in hell? Why did he instead say that the penalty for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was DEATH?

See previous answer Q17…

27. If hell is real, why don’t the Jews, many who know the Old Testament better than most Christians, not believe in the modern Christian concept of hell? They say they don’t believe it because it is not in their Scriptures.

See previous answer Q17…

28. If hell doesn’t exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.)

See previous answer Q17…

29. If hell is real, since SOME English translations use the word “hell” for the Greek word “Gehenna,” in the New Testament, why didn’t this same place (Gehenna) get translated hell in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form “ga ben Hinnom” in the Old Testament? If the Jews did not understand this valley as a symbol of everlasting torture, why do SOME English translations give this word such a meaning?

See previous answer Q17…

30. If hell was real, why did the early church appoint an avowed universalist as the President of the second council of the church in Constantinople in the fourth century? (Gregory Nazianzen, 325-381)

See previous answer Q17. The teachings of Universalism are not biblical and a doctrine of the devil. There were many false teachers entering into the Church according to the scriptures even in Pauls day let alone the 3rd and 4th Century AD. (Acts of the Apostles 20:29; 2 Peter 2:1-3)


31. If hell was real and a place of no escape, why did the early church teach Jesus went to Hell (Hades), preached to them and led captivity captive?” (Eph. 4:8,9; Psalm 68:18; 1 Peter 3:18-20


Jesus went to the grave (Hell) and was resurrected. See previous answer Q17…


32. If hell was real and the grave settled the matter forever, why did the early Christians offer up prayers for the dead?


See previous answer Q17…

33. If hell was real, why didn’t the church teach it until AFTER the church departed from reading the Bible in Greek and Hebrew, substituting Latin in its stead several centuries after Christ’s death?

See previous answer Q17…

34. If hell was real, why did not a single Christian writer of the first 3 centuries declare universalism as a heresy?

See previous answer Q17. The teachings of Universalism are not biblical and a doctrine of the devil. There were many false teachers entering into the Church according to the scriptures even in Pauls day let alone the 3rd and 4th Century AD. (Acts of the Apostles 20:29; 2 Peter 2:1-3)

35. Did Jesus intentionally doom non-Jews to hell? (Matthew 10:5–6; Matthew 15:22–24)

No. We doom themselves by not believing and following Gods’ Word *Romans 14:23

John 3:16-18 [16], For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [17], For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [18], He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36, He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.

36. What kind of person does God resist? Is. 29:13–14; Luke 10:21–22; John 12:39–40; 1 Cor. 1:27–29 (see CLT)

Those who do not believe and follow God’s Word

37. Did Paul wish to be eternally separated from God in hell? Romans 9:3

No, he had heaviness of heart because he wanted his kinsman to be saved shown in the context of Romans 9:1-2 where he goes on to describe who Gods’ true Israel is in Romans 9:6-8 who are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are born of the Spirit through faith in Gods’ new covenant promise.

38. If hell was real and found in the original Greek manuscripts of the Bible, why is it that it was primarily those church leaders who either couldn’t read Greek (Minucius Felix, Tertullian), or hated Greek as in the case of Augustine, that the doctrine of Hell was advocated?

See previous answer Q17…

39. Is fire (i.e. “lake of fire”) a literal fire? Deut. 4:20; Zeph. 3:8–9; Mark 9:49; Luke 3:16; 1 Cor. 3:15; Heb. 12:29

There was not one scriptures you quote here that are references to the lake of fire at the second coming. Yes the lake of fire is a literal fire that all those who do not believe and follow Gods Word and continue in a life of known unrepentant sin will enter into after the second coming. The correct scripture references to the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels and all those who follow them are found here which is the second death *Revelation 20:10-15; Revelation 21:8; Revelation 20:15; Revelation 19:20; Matthew 18:8; Mark 9:47-48; Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; Matthew 13:42; 2 Peter 2:4; Nahum 1:6; Deuteronomy 4:24; Jeremiah 4:4; Malachi 3:2; Matthew 25:41

40. How can people be dead forever if death is destroyed? Isaiah 25:8; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Revelation 20:14

Death is only destroyed for the righteous who receive eternal life not for the wicked who do not believe *John 3:16-18; 36 and follow God’s Word and receive the second death that are destroyed forever with death. *Revelation 2:11; Revelation 20:6

…………………

All 40 questions answered with the scriptures. The doctrine of Universalism that everyone will be saved no matter what they do is not biblical and a doctrine of the devils designed to lead all who follow it away from God and His Word and makes a mockery of the death of Christ who paid the penalty for our sins so that we can be reconciled to God through Gods dear son in Jesus. The wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of Gods’ dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing (Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-39; Hebrews 6:4-8).

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.
 
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Carl Emerson

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17. Why did He fail to mention “hell” in Genesis as the price for sin?

The Catholic interpretation handed down to many Protestant Churches is not biblical. Hell is simply the grave and it is mentioned indirectly as death which is the penalty for sin. (in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die) *Genesis 3.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust3 of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 3:

19 For the fate of the sons of mankind and the fate of animals is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath, and there is no advantage for mankind over animals, for all is futility. 20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. 21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of mankind ascends upward and the spirit of the animal descends downward to the earth?

Ecc 12:

7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.


This passage seems to confirm that the body returns to dust, but the spirit returns to God...
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Ecc 3:

19 For the fate of the sons of mankind and the fate of animals is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath, and there is no advantage for mankind over animals, for all is futility. 20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. 21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of mankind ascends upward and the spirit of the animal descends downward to the earth?

Ecc 12:

7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.


This passage seems to confirm that the body returns to dust, but the spirit returns to God...

Indeed Carl, the Spirit is the "breath of life" in the Hebrew given by God when we became living and breathing (see Genesis 2:7 and Ecclesiastes 3:12 and look up the Hebrew word meaning of Spirit).
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Not sure I agree, as animals have the breath of life but not an eternal soul.

I think the 'human spirit' and the 'breath of life' are two different things.

All a soul means in Hebrew is living breathing creature. There is no such thing as an immortal soul accept for those who receive everlasting life at the second coming. Ezekiel 18:4 [4], Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die. Though I am not sure what this has to do with the OP Carl?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Much of your thesis hinges on post #17

You make the bold statement that Hell is the Grave...

You will need to account for a lot of scripture to sustain this position.

Not really Carl the many of the questions are repetitious. Hell is the grave for most texts as that is the context of the scriptures.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H7585
שְׁאֹול(shᵉʼôwl | sheh-ole')
Derivation: or שְׁאֹל; from שָׁאַל;
Strong's: Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates KJV: grave, hell, pit.

What is it you do not agree with?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Mark 9:43 and others...

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.

Hell is depicted as a place punishment.

Somehow the term 'Grave' does not represent this...

Your contention that Hell is the grave doesn't really cut it for me...

Saints were raised from the grave and did not suffer punishment.
 
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Mark 9:43 and others...

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.

Hell is depicted as a place punishment.

Somehow the term 'Grave' does not represent this...

Your contention that Hell is the grave doesn't really cut it for me...

Saints were raised from the grave and did not suffer punishment.

According to the scriptures and also shown in the Hebrew word meaning, Hell is depicted as the place of the dead, death, grave. Of course the lake of fire will be a place of death and a grave for many who do not believe and follow Gods' Word. There is no contradiction here.
 
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You statement "Hell is the grave" is wrong because not all who go to the grave go to Hell.
No not at all. As shown in our discussion Hell means the grave or place of the dead in the Hebrew word meaning and scripture contexts as already provided.
 
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40 Questions against traditional Christianity and the doctrine of Hell - Answered
(Answers provided from questions asked by @Saint Steven thread here)

to be continued

Dear LoveGodsWord,
I read your answers to the 40 questions and I don't believe I can agree with any thing you said. You have a works based belief system that makes God out to be less merciful and loving than mankind.

Since there was too much in your post to respond to everything, I'll try to focus on just one of the first things you said:

God creates all of his creation with free will to choose for themselves what they will do or not do.

Mankind was created spiritually marred and subject to vanity. Because of that spiritual condition, everyone quickly becomes carnally minded and sinful. We have no free will ability to change our behavior or to correct our spiritual flaw. In that condition, NO ONE can seek out Christ or understand His truth, much less make a free will decision to accept Christ as Lord. Mankind is utterly lost and no amount of our own "works" will ever change it. We are totally at the mercy of God to save us.

Because mankind's problem is spiritual (within us), the only solution to our problem is to be "born again" with a new spiritual nature which is perfect. That new perfect nature is a gift from Christ. He gives us that gift when He individually comes to us and gives us the Holy Spirit.

When Christ comes to a person to "call" them out from the world, He does so WITHOUT them asking Him to do it. In our flawed spiritual condition, if "asking Him" were a pre-condition to Him coming to us and giving us His gift of the Holy Spirit, then no one would ever be saved. Mankind has no free will ability to choose Christ.

Christ must prepare our hearts with the Holy Spirit, so that the answer from our tongues will be to call Him "Lord".

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Unless Christ does this "work" within us, this verse says we cannot call Him "Lord".

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Only AFTER Christ comes to us and gives us the Holy Spirit, can we choose to call Him "Lord". And that is the only choice we can make because once we have the Holy Spirit, we can no longer call Him "accursed".

Christ doesn't even come to us and ask us for our permission to do His work within us. He knows what is best for mankind so He acts without our permission.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.

Since God created mankind "subject to vanity" without our permission, then He likewise does not need our permission to make us into a child of God.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

As the above verses shows, God does not ask anyone for permission to do anything. He is God and He does as He pleases. He made us marred without our permission and He will make us into a child of God without our permission.

And since God is all powerful, we don't have the ability to resist God's will or to reject His "gifts". God does has He pleases in this world.

Here is how God operates:

2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Scripture says that Paul's conversion is the pattern that all mankind will follow for salvation:

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Christ came to Paul "suddenly", without invitation, on the Damascus Road and gave Paul the Holy Spirit. Christ did not ask Paul for permission to do this work nor could Paul reject it. Paul didn't even seem to be aware that it even happened but we know that it did because Paul called Jesus "Lord".

Most Christians probably aren't aware of when Christ comes to them and gives them the Holy Spirit either. They just know that they made a "decision" to accept Christ. But that "decision" occurred AFTER Christ came to them and give them the Spirit.

After Christ gives us the Spirit, we will no longer call Him "accursed". Paul was the "chief of sinners" who actively hated Christ. If Paul couldn't reject the gift of Christ, then no one else can either.

Your belief in mankind's ability to make a free will choice to accept Christ is not possible according to scripture. You have turned the Grace of God into the work of man. And because you believe it is man's work, you say that most of mankind will not be saved solely because of their inability to make the right choice. Since your beliefs take credit for the decision to accept Christ, then a saved person must be smarter, or wiser or just not as evil as those who do not accept Him. This is the definition of self-righteousness. Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ, lest any man should boast.

Scripture says we ALL reject Christ and cannot seek Him out. It is only because of the Grace of God that Christ comes to us and gives us the Holy Spirit so that we can be "born again". Our works do not come in to play. God's "will" will be done and His "will" is to save all mankind.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe
 
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LoveGodsWord

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In your view is Hell empty?
If not who is presently there?
No, the dead are there. Hell means the grave or place of the dead in the Hebrew. Your question on the state of the dead though is possibly best answered here linked
 
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Dear LoveGodsWord,
I read your answers to the 40 questions and I don't believe I can agree with any thing you said. You have a works based belief system that makes God out to be less merciful and loving than mankind.

Since there was too much in your post to respond to everything, I'll try to focus on just one of the first things you said:

God creates all of his creation with free will to choose for themselves what they will do or not do.

Mankind was created spiritually marred and subject to vanity. Because of that spiritual condition, everyone quickly becomes carnally minded and sinful. We have no free will ability to change our behavior or to correct our spiritual flaw. In that condition, NO ONE can seek out Christ or understand His truth, much less make a free will decision to accept Christ as Lord. Mankind is utterly lost and no amount of our own "works" will ever change it. We are totally at the mercy of God to save us.

Because mankind's problem is spiritual (within us), the only solution to our problem is to be "born again" with a new spiritual nature which is perfect. That new perfect nature is a gift from Christ. He gives us that gift when He individually comes to us and gives us the Holy Spirit.

When Christ comes to a person to "call" them out from the world, He does so WITHOUT them asking Him to do it. In our flawed spiritual condition, if "asking Him" were a pre-condition to Him coming to us and giving us His gift of the Holy Spirit, then no one would ever be saved. Mankind has no free will ability to choose Christ.

Christ must prepare our hearts with the Holy Spirit, so that the answer from our tongues will be to call Him "Lord".

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Unless Christ does this "work" within us, this verse says we cannot call Him "Lord".

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Only AFTER Christ comes to us and gives us the Holy Spirit, can we choose to call Him "Lord". And that is the only choice we can make because once we have the Holy Spirit, we can no longer call Him "accursed".

Christ doesn't even come to us and ask us for our permission to do His work within us. He knows what is best for mankind so He acts without our permission.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.

Since God created mankind "subject to vanity" without our permission, then He likewise does not need our permission to make us into a child of God.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

As the above verses says, God does not ask anyone for permission to do anything. He is God and He does as He pleases. He made us marred without our permission and He will make us into a child of God without our permission.

And since God is all powerful, we don't have the ability to resist God's will or to reject His "gifts". God does has He pleases in this world.

Here is how God operates:

2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Scripture says that Paul's conversion is the pattern that all mankind will follow for salvation:

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Christ came to Paul "suddenly", without invitation, on the Damascus Road and gave Paul the Holy Spirit. Christ did not ask Paul for permission to do this work nor could Paul reject it. Paul didn't even seem to be aware that it even happened but we know that it did because Paul called Jesus "Lord".

Most Christians probably aren't aware of when Christ comes to them and gives them the Holy Spirit either. They just know that they made a "decision" to accept Christ. But that "decision" occurred AFTER Christ came to them and give them the Spirit.

After Christ gives us the Spirit, we will no longer call Him "accursed". Paul was the "chief of sinners" who actively hated Christ. If Paul couldn't reject the gift of Christ, then no one else can either.

Your belief in mankind's ability to make a free will choice to accept Christ is not possible according to scripture. You have turned the Grace of God into the work of man. And because you believe it is man's work, you say that most of mankind will not be saved solely because of their inability to make the right choice. Since your beliefs take credit for the decision to accept Christ, then a saved person must be smarter, or wiser or just not as evil as those who do not accept Him. This is the definition of self-righteousness. Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ, lest any man should boast.

Scripture says we ALL reject Christ and cannot seek Him out. It is only because of the Grace of God that Christ comes to us and gives us the Holy Spirit so that we can be "born again". Our works do not come in to play. God's "will" will be done and His "will" is to save all mankind.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

Thanks for sharing your view Joe but I believe your interpretation of the scriptures you post here is not biblical but allow me to explain why so it might be helpful. God's salvation according to the scriptures is conditional on us believing and following what Gods' Word says. So the scriptures you post here are not the problem it is your interpretation of them that is the problem. What you will notice is that each scripture you provided is in context to those who believe and follow what God's Word says not to those who do not believe and do not follow what Gods' Word says. James in James 2:17-26 calls a faith that does not believe and follow what God's Word says the dead faith of devils and Paul says in Romans 3:31 that faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes God's law. According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. At the second coming Christs reward is with him *Revelation 22:12. The righteous receive their reward of eternal life *Revelation 22:14 and the wicked, the lake of fire. All men will not be saved.

Hope this is helpful
 
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No, the dead are there. Hell means the grave or place of the dead in the Hebrew. Your question on the state of the dead though is possibly best answered here linked

Dear LoveGodsWord,
I will say that I agree with you on this one point.

"Hell" is a spiritual term that represents the place of the grave. It is not a literal place. Once a person dies, their spirit returns to God and their body returns to the dust of the ground.

BODY + SPIRIT = A LIVING SOUL

Without a body, mankind no longer has any existence or consciousness (soul). But because of Christ's work on the cross, Christ earned the "keys" to death and Hell and now has the authority & power to resurrect the dead. And at some future date, Christ will resurrect the dead - a "few" to life but most will go to judgment. Until that time, everyone who has ever lived & died remains in the grave.

Joe
 
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Dear LoveGodsWord,
I will say that I agree with you on this one point.

"Hell" is a spiritual term that represents the place of the grave. It is not a literal place. Once a person dies, their spirit returns to God and their body returns to the dust of the ground.

BODY + SPIRIT = A LIVING SOUL

Without a body, mankind no longer has any existence or consciousness (soul). But because of Christ's work on the cross, Christ earned the "keys" to death and Hell and now has the authority & power to resurrect the dead. And at some future date, Christ will resurrect the dead - a "few" to life but most will go to judgment. Until that time, everyone who has ever lived & died remains in the grave.

Joe

What was it in the post above yours that you disagree with? (post # 16)
 
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No, the dead are there. Hell means the grave or place of the dead in the Hebrew. Your question on the state of the dead though is possibly best answered here linked

So you think the dead are going straight to punishment before judgement of any kind ??
And what about the righteous dead?
 
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