Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

o_mlly · Jun 25, 2021

Cormack said:
So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

Universalism defined as the reconciliation of all men but not the fallen angels, yes.

By faith, one believes. By hope, one prefers.

We may not necessarily believe in universalism but I think one must hope for it. (Probably better for fallen man to not believe that God will save him no matter what.)

1 Timothy 2:4 tell us what God wills.
In the Lord's prayer, we pray that God's will be done.
It would be cognitively dissonant to pray/hope for something that we believe is impossible.

Confused-by-christianity · Jun 25, 2021

Cormack said:
... e.g. people will freely choose God, the “potential” future where everyone lives becomes reality under Gods care.

I wouldn't say it's impossible

Cormack said:
...It seems as though your preference is grounded in what you see as being a believable or likely outcome. I might be wrong in thinking that and if I’m in error I’m sure you’ll understand.

I wouldn't quibble much.
But I'd go like this:
My preference of "no" was because I believe God would accept someone's freewill choice and so I would accept someone's freewill choice. I would not prefer Universalism to be true because that would mean someone's freewill be denied. Of course - I shouldn't assume that someone somewhere will choose to die. So my statement is a little flawed there. Maybe - somehow someway - everyone keeps their freewill and yet God's will is achieved? (That's cool because it means we are all in this eternal school where are paths build us up into better and better beings until finally, when we are capable of making a freewill choice that has eternal consequences - we are also enough like Jesus to choose eternal life 100% certainty??) haha

eleos1954 · Jun 25, 2021

Cormack said:
So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

1 Timothy 2

1First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be offered for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority—so that we may lead tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But alas .... sadly it is not so ... some will not come to the knowledge of the truth.

John Mullally · Jun 25, 2021

A preacher said that God told him the following that rings true to me:

If it hadn't been for sin, I would never have had a serious thought because I am a God of joy,

As a direct answer to your question, Yes. I know God is good because He sent us His son. But of course, concerning judgement I realize God knows infinitely more than the rest of us.

Cormack · Jun 25, 2021

Confused-by-christianity said:
I think heavenly beings are amused by us. I think they listen to our conversations about this stuff and think we are really funny. Like toddlers trying to act like adults and everyone thinks it's funny how seriously they take themselves.

What do you think?

I agree.

I also imagine an angelic army would have mysteries of their own, things God has kept from them, secrets that they ponder and misunderstand in the same way that we have mysteries. Reading from 1 Peter…

They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you. And now this Good News has been announced to you by those who preached in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen.

I’m sure there’s humour too, fear for our state and probably curiosity. The kind of fascination that people have for the angels the angels may have for us too. Humans are wacky, inventive, loving, hateful, fascinating creatures when we spend some time to think on the things we do.

Confused-by-christianity said:
My biggest curiosity is. Why do we think we are so smart? Why do we speak so surely about God, heaven and the scriptures - like we know what's going on?? haha

I dare not answer, for fear of being an insufferable know it all.

Confused-by-christianity said:
Of course - I shouldn't assume that someone somewhere will choose to die.

Maybe this thought could help, @Confused-by-christianity.

Jerry Walls and Thomas Talbott had an exchange in print where one man argued for optimal grace or for full disclosure.

The argument in short was, would anyone freely choose to go to hell if they were fully informed? Or do they pick hellfire out of some degree of ignorance.

I agree with you, humanity is beset on all sides by lies and misinformation and as a result ignorance.

Lastly would God fully inform everyone before sending them away into darkness for an eternity?

I think Jesus Christ is the God of truth, wisdom, knowledge and light, He won’t allow people to be ignorant of His love or of the consequences of refusing Him.

So we go back to the question. Would anybody refuse God if they understood the consequences of losing Him?

I’d have to say no.

Nobody would reject God unless they had been tricked and beset by confusion on all sides, and God won’t allow that confusion to continue forever.

Cormack · Jun 25, 2021

So in my opinion, there are lots of great reasons to be a hopeful universalist.

There are innumerable reasons to prefer universalism, there are as many reasons to prefer universalism as there are unsaved people.

So far I’ve seen no valid reason to prefer a non universalist perspective.

bling · Jun 25, 2021

Cormack said:
So in my opinion, there are lots of great reasons to be a hopeful universalist.

There are innumerable reasons to prefer universalism, there are as many reasons to prefer universalism as there are unsaved people.

So far I’ve seen no valid reason to prefer a non universalist perspective.

You have not addressed my post so I will ask you two final question;

How can you take a selfish carnal person and make them, having their own autonomous free will, choose to be sacrificially unselfish (have Godly type Love) so they are "happy" in heaven?

You can say: “Live in hell or choose to be unselfish in heaven”, but is that really their autonomous free will choice and is that really unselfish Love so they are happy in heaven?

Bruce Leiter · Jun 25, 2021

Cormack said:
So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

Sorry to disobey you, but my answer is "yes and no." I would prefer that all the unbelievers that I have known would be saved, thus showing God's grace.

But--very sadly--I know that their stubborn self-centeredness in their whole lives will make them lose out in the end. People are all born on their way to hell, thus showing God's justice. But God saves some. Why he saved me is a profound mystery to me.

BrotherJJ · Jun 25, 2021

Cormack said:
So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

Sure that would be great. Having said that, if universalism were true. Their would be no reason to trust Christ.

Making Jesus sin atoning sacrifice a worthless/unneeded payment. And no reason for heavens laws, not to steal, covet, murder etc.

A person must understand & acknowledge that God IS. That they've sinned against a sovereign creator. Have earned heavens just penalty for sin (death/Rom 3:23) & are in need of a savior.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
(NOTE: Vs Key is found in the article "TOWARD". Repentance TOWARD God & faith TOWARD Christ)

The Gospel of Salvation, Source Amplified Bible

1 Cor 15
1 Now brothers and sisters, let me remind you [once again] of the good news [of salvation] which I preached to you, which you welcomed and accepted and on which you stand [by faith].

2 By this faith you are saved [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose], if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain [just superficially and without complete commitment].

3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],

4 and that He was buried, and that He was [bodily] raised on the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: Vrs 1-4 Recap: The gospel of Salvation is: "Christ died for our sins was buried & rose again the third day")

Rom 5:
1 Therefore, since we have been justified [that is, acquitted of sin, declared blameless before God] by faith, [let us grasp the fact that] we have peace with God [and the joy of reconciliation with Him] through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed).

2 Through Him we also have access by faith into this [remarkable state of] grace in which we [firmly and safely and securely] stand. Let us rejoice in our [a]hope and the confident assurance of [experiencing and enjoying] the glory of [our great] God [the manifestation of His excellence and power].
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: Vrs 1-2 recap: We access salvation/justification = Judicially declared righteous by a sovereign Creator God. By placing our FAITH in Jesus sin atoning sacrifice. Found in His death (sins required wage, PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Father's receipt, sins payment received & accepted.)

LoveGodsWord · Jun 25, 2021

Michael Collum said:
As the scripture says, let your yes be yes and your no be no, everything else comes from the evil one.

In general, this means answer the question, and add nothing else.

I am sorry if I answer the question based on scripture which is what I believe and follow. Are you seriously trying to say that if we answer a question based on scripture it is from the devil? I will leave that between you and God to work through as I do not judge you *John 12:47-48. For me however, only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29. What we think is not important or necessarily true.

RickReads · Jun 25, 2021

BrotherJJ said:
Sure that would be great. Having said that, if universalism were true. Their would be no reason to trust Christ.

Making Jesus sin atoning sacrifice a worthless/unneeded payment. And no reason for heavens laws, not to steal, covet, murder etc.

A person must understand & acknowledge that God IS. That they've sinned against a sovereign creator. Have earned heavens just penalty for sin (death/Rom 3:23) & are in need of a savior.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
(NOTE: Vs Key is found in the article "TOWARD". Repentance TOWARD God & faith TOWARD Christ)

The Gospel of Salvation, Source Amplified Bible

1 Cor 15
1 Now brothers and sisters, let me remind you [once again] of the good news [of salvation] which I preached to you, which you welcomed and accepted and on which you stand [by faith].

2 By this faith you are saved [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose], if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain [just superficially and without complete commitment].

3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],

4 and that He was buried, and that He was [bodily] raised on the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: Vrs 1-4 Recap: The gospel of Salvation is: "Christ died for our sins was buried & rose again the third day")

Rom 5:
1 Therefore, since we have been justified [that is, acquitted of sin, declared blameless before God] by faith, [let us grasp the fact that] we have peace with God [and the joy of reconciliation with Him] through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed).

2 Through Him we also have access by faith into this [remarkable state of] grace in which we [firmly and safely and securely] stand. Let us rejoice in our [a]hope and the confident assurance of [experiencing and enjoying] the glory of [our great] God [the manifestation of His excellence and power].
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5 - Amplified Bible

(MY NOTE: Vrs 1-2 recap: We access salvation/justification = Judicially declared righteous by a sovereign Creator God. By placing our FAITH in Jesus sin atoning sacrifice. Found in His death (sins required wage, PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Father's receipt, sins payment received & accepted.)

Universalism doesn`t rule out the punishment of sinners, it would just rule out the eternal punishing of sinners.

Example from Matthew 5,

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing."

If you give this passage the same kind of weight you give the "Lazarus beggar" parable then you would have to conclude that at a certain point a sinner has paid for their sins and will be released from their punishment.

RickReads · Jun 25, 2021

Cormack said:
So in my opinion, there are lots of great reasons to be a hopeful universalist.

There are innumerable reasons to prefer universalism, there are as many reasons to prefer universalism as there are unsaved people.

So far I’ve seen no valid reason to prefer a non universalist perspective.

Some have suffered greatly at the hands of others and look to Jesus for justice.

The Lord is my avenger let my enemies beware.

Will that do? :liturgy:

RickReads · Jun 25, 2021

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

grasping the after wind · Jun 25, 2021

parousia70 said:
So, if I'm reading your position correctly, it appears you would then agree, that Because of the work of Christ on the Cross, the sins of every human being who ever lived have been completely atoned for, and thereby 100% forgiven, by God, however, You believe that they can't enjoy the benefits of that forgiveness, even though it is complete, until they choose to be reconciled.

Is that about right?

Fairly close. I do not however, say that they cannot enjoy the benefits of forgiveness, I just do not see that there is a strong biblical case to be made that they will. There is an airtight biblical case to be made that if they are reconciled to God they will absolutely enjoy all the benefits of that reconciliation.

parousia70 · Jun 25, 2021

grasping the after wind said:
Fairly close. I do not however, say that they cannot enjoy the benefits of forgiveness, I just do not see that there is a strong biblical case to be made that they will. There is an airtight biblical case to be made that if they are reconciled to God they will absolutely enjoy all the benefits of that reconciliation.

Airtight?
This could devolve into an OSAS discussion pretty easliy...

BrotherJJ · Jun 25, 2021

RickReads said:
Universalism doesn`t rule out the punishment of sinners, it would just rule out the eternal punishing of sinners.

2 Thes 1:
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(MY NOTE: Eternal separation from the presence of the Lord)

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(MY NOTE: Cursed with an everlasting judgment)

Saint Steven · Jun 25, 2021

Cormack said:
So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

Yes.

I would most certainly prefer it if Universalism were true. That is Christian Universalism. Sometimes called Universal Reconciliation, or Ultimate Redemption. (UR)

Unfortunately, most Christians will fight tooth and nail to keep their precious hell. They love it. Eternity will be all the sweeter for them, knowing that friends and love ones are in eternal agony with no hope of escape. And that they will join them if they have but one wrong thought. Sounds like fun, eh?

Hard to imagine a more slanderous opinion about God.

Saint Steven · Jun 25, 2021

Cormack said:
I dare not answer, for fear of being an insufferable know it all.

That is so funny! - lol

Confused-by-christianity said: ↑
My biggest curiosity is. Why do we think we are so smart? Why do we speak so surely about God, heaven and the scriptures - like we know what's going on?? haha

Saint Steven · Jun 25, 2021

Confused-by-christianity said:
(My biggest curiosity is. Why do we think we are so smart? Why do we speak so surely about God, heaven and the scriptures - like we know what's going on?? haha)

My answer:
I defer having a preference. The reason for that is I want to prefer whatever is best in God's eyes, and, I'm not grown spiritually enough to know what that is yet.

(parody)

God: What kind of ice cream do you want? I'm buying.
Human: I want whatever you think is best.
God: That doesn't matter. You can have whatever kind you want.
Human: I don't know which kind you want me to have.
God: You are free to choose whichever kind you want.
Human: Is this a test?
God: No. What kind of ice cream do you want?
Human: How am I supposed to decide?
God: What kinds do you like?
Human: Can't you choose for me?
God: You might not like what I choose.
Human: You know what's best. You choose.
God: Okay, we'll have two Pistachio Nut.
Human: I hate Pistachio Nut.
God: (sigh) I chose what was the best for you.
Human: Is this a test?
God: Yes. Now eat your ice cream before it melts.
Human: (sigh)

RickReads · Jun 26, 2021

BrotherJJ said:
2 Thes
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(MY NOTE: Eternal separation from the presence of the Lord)

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(MY NOTE: Cursed with an everlasting judgment)

Moot. The universalists say we are all victims of bad translation and erroneous views of hell that developed during the dark ages.

Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

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