Did Christians kill Red Indians in America?

Yes, both directly and indirectly. Such is the history of all people groups when they come into contact with each other.

If the Ming had not stopped their efforts in exploration we might live in a world where California and the Eastern USA was majority Chinese. If the Muslims had arrived to South America first they would have seen the potential for power and riches and there would have been a Jihad the likes of which you could not possibly imagine.

But the Europeans did not just indiscriminately kill all natives they came into contact with as I understand it. A majority of North Americans died of Old world diseases and this was inevitable when contact between these two worlds opened up.

JimR-OCDS said:

I'm currently reading the book, "Empire of the Summer Moon" by S. C. Gwynne.
It's a must read for those who are interested in what the nation was like in the early 19th Century.

As S. C. Gwynne wrote, 90% of the Native American population were wiped out by diseases which they had no immunity from.

Before the Europeans arrived, Native American Tribes wared with each other, killing men women and children including babies. They always took prisoners for the sport of torturing them to death, which native tribes enjoyed. They also gang raped and enslaved prisoners. They had no use for taking babies which would have to be cared for, so they just killed them. They also took some of the children and adopted them as their own, especially the sachems and chiefs of the tribe.

Many practiced cannibalism, especially in the Northeast Tribes like the Iroquois.

If you read what things were like in the context of those times, you get to understand that it was a brutal time to live, whether you were an Indian or White European just arriving in the New World.

The Comanches were probably the most powerful tribe in the New World and by the time the territory of Texas began to be settled by whites, they had driven the Apaches down into Mexico.

Texans at that time had to deal with Comanches, Apaches and other Tribes, but eventually the other tribes joined with the Texans to fight the Comanches.

What we read today, especially from Native Americans is a revisionist history of what life among the Native Tribes themselves was like. They were not all friendly and like in the movie Dances With Wolves. This isn't saying that they were wrong, but that what the Europeans who were not always nice either, discovered when they came here was not easy going naïve people they could exploit.

The Native Americans two biggest enemies were, their lust for modern goods which the Europeans traded with them, and disease. Even the accusation that Gen Amherst had knowingly gave blankets infested with smallpox to the Indians in order to wipe them out is not true. In those days they had little knowledge about how diseases could be transferred and Amherst had his own men handle the same blankets he gave to the Indians.

We as Christians of European Descent do not have to feel guilty of the treatment of Natives when our ancestors first came to the New World. There were plenty of sins committed, but what Native peoples were like upon their arrival wasn't always pleasant.

One thing that is rarely mentioned about the Pilgrims who arrived in 1620 is that, they lived in peace with the native tribes for over 50 years after they arrived. If not for Massasoit's son Metacomet's lust for modern goods where he traded away his tribal land, there would've been peace for much longer.

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European wiped off entire race almost to extinct and you blame the native. Amazing!

Tiberius Lee said:

European wiped off entire race almost to extinct and you blame the native. Amazing!

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Native desire for European goods led them to trade with Europeans and contact is how they contacted diseases which killed 90% of the Indians.

Also, the Europeans were greatly outnumbered and only had primitive muskets which were inaccurate and took over a minute to load. Native Americans with spears, bows and arrows and tomahawks could easily wipe out Europeans.

In the west, the big asset the Comanche's had was the horse, which they were far better at riding and shooting from, than the white men. In fact, white soldiers would dismount and try to fight on foot and were easily defeated by the Comanche warriors on horseback. Comanches controlled most of the plains areas of the West. They were far more powerful than what current Native Americans reveal in their revisionists accounts.

As I said, Europeans weren't all nice either and the history must be studied in the context of those times and not try and use 21st Century hindsight to judge them.

Natives Tribes were savage toward other tribes, long before the white man arrived.

It wasn't all the white man's fault as we're taught today and which you seem to believe.

Tiberius Lee said:

From the N.T. teaching there is no such teaching “ self-defense”. You can’t “ self-defense” and love your enemy same time, you can’t self defense and turn the other cheek same time.

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I disagree. It is when your faith is the reason for the threat. Someone coming to kill me, I do not believe Christ called us to die simply because someone wants to kill me for pleasure. We suffer for our faith to keep it.

ralliann said:

I disagree. It is when your faith is the reason for the threat. Someone coming to kill me, I do not believe Christ called us to die simply because someone wants to kill me for pleasure. We suffer for our faith to keep it.

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New Testament Scripture That Supports Nonresistance:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Matthew 26:52-53
52 Then Jesus told him, "Put your sword back in its place because all who take up a sword will perish by a sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot call on My Father, and He will provide Me at once with more than 12 legions of angels?

Matthew 5:44-45
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Luke 6:27-29
27 But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.
29 If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also;

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.

Matthew 5:39 But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned. -Bible in Basic English

Luke 12:22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on.

Matthew 7:12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets.

1 Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind.
9 Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Romans 12:17-21
17 Never repay anyone evil for evil. Take thought for what is right and gracious and proper in the sight of everyone. - AMP
18 and do your best to live at peace with everyone. - CEV
19 Christian brothers, never pay back someone for the bad he has done to you. Let the anger of God take care of the other person. - NLV for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. - KJV

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.

1 Peter 2:21-23
21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 10:4 We do not use those things to fight with that the world uses. We use the things God gives to fight with and they have power. Those things God gives to fight with destroy the strong-places of the devil.

Luke 3:14 Do violence to no man,

John 8:7 But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Matthew 10:28-31
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will.
30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

James 3:18 The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for them that make peace.

Romans 10:15. How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace.

Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore . . . having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace.

Ephesians 4:1-3
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

Romans 16:20 The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren ... be perfected; be comforted; be of the same mind; live in peace: and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus

Galatians 1:13 - For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it.

2 Timothy 3:12 - Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution

1 Peter 4:12-16
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind...

Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corinthians 13:3 - and though I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profits me nothing.

Philippians 1:21 - For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Revelation 13:10 - He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


Popular Common Objections:

Luke 22:36 is a popular objection because Jesus tells his disciples to buy a sword.

Here is a great article explaining this one in great detail (Which is quoted in the OP of this thread here):

Love and Non-Resistance

As for John the Baptist's silence on not telling the soldiers to quit the military in Luke 3:10-14 (Which is similar to Jesus's encounter with the Roman Centurion - Luke 7:1-10):

Check out this article here:

Did John the Baptist tell repentant soldiers to leave the military?

As for Jesus not telling the Roman Centurion not to quite the military or to do no more violence in Luke 7:1-10:

Well, you have to realize that salvation did not go out unto the Gentiles yet. They first preached the gospel to Israel first.

As for Romans 13:4 that says,

...for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

This is talking about how unbelieving authorities or nations (like a government's leaders, armies, and police) who are God's ministers to execute wrath or judgment on those who do evil. This is not talking about believers because it is telling the reader to be subject unto this higher powers (Romans 13:1). It does not tell the reader that they are these higher powers. The reader that Paul is writing to are believers (not the higher powers who are in authority whereby we are to be subject unto). In fact, God used both Assyria and Babylon to punish His people. So we can see that these nations were God's ministers of justice (Which would be in line with what is said in Romans 13).

Bible Highlighter said:

New Testament Scripture That Supports Nonresistance:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Matthew 26:52-53

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Our warfare is spiritual, it is those that are our enemies because of Christ. They hated him and they will hate us. The bible nowhere speaks of someone threatening our lives merely for criminal acts. That is why we have civil rulers to protect us. No army, no police? No, I disagree with you..... When it comes to the Gospels the context there is theocrasy among Jews, and other legalized religions under the Roman government. Each religion had its own area in the empire that was a theocracy. But Rome had to legalize those religions among those people. That is why Paul was in trouble for speaking against the Godess Diana of the Ephesians at Ephesus.

Ac 19:34 But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
Ac 19:35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?
Pax Romana
No riots or disturbances
39 But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly. {lawful: or, ordinary }
40 For we are in danger to be called in question for this day’s uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account of this concourse.

ralliann said:

Our warfare is spiritual, it is those that are our enemies because of Christ. They hated him and they will hate us. The bible nowhere speaks of someone threatening our lives merely for criminal acts. That is why we have civil rulers to protect us. No army, no police? No, I disagree with you..... When it comes to the Gospels the context there is theocrasy among Jews, and other legalized religions under the Roman government. Each religion had its own area in the empire that was a theocracy. But Rome had to legalize those religions among those people. That is why Paul was in trouble for speaking against the Godess Diana of the Ephesians at Ephesus.

Ac 19:34 But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
Ac 19:35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?
Pax Romana
No riots or disturbances
39 But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly. {lawful: or, ordinary }
40 For we are in danger to be called in question for this day’s uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account of this concourse.

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I am not in disagreement with the police or military protecting me. I am not even in disagreement with calling the police. The police are not a hit squad and they generally try to resolve a conflict by peaceful means if they can. Granted, this is not always the case, but that is how they are supposed to operate, and that is what we see in most cases. Calling the police would be sort of like praying to God for an angel to protect you. You don't know if that angel is going to use violent force or not. The same is true with the polcemen you call. A person can also join the military and be like a Desmond Doss and not take up a gun against the enemy (i.e. to be non-violent).

Anyways, you need to deal with the verses I presented that clearly teach Non-Resistance in the New Testament. If things are as you say, then why are there so many verses that teach it?

Bible Highlighter said:

I am not in disagreement with the police or military protecting me.

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Well, I agree. Scripture upholds civil government. So none in civil rule can be Christians? Or can Christians police or rulers use violence to stop a crime?

Bible Highlighter said:

I am not even in disagreement with calling the police. The police are not a hit squad and they generally try to resolve a conflict by peaceful means if they can. Granted, this is not always the case, but that is how they are supposed to operate, and that is what we see in most cases. Calling the police would be sort of like praying to God for an angel to protect you. You don't know if that angel is going to use violent force or not. The same is true with the polcemen you call. A person can also join the military and be like a Desmond Doss and not take up a gun against the enemy (i.e. to be non-violent).

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Or like Paul Who appealed to the soldiers his citizenship in order to force a fair trial. They were just going to take the crowds word for it, and flog him (which could lead to death)
That was illegal to do to a Roman citizen. They were afraid they had even bound him at that point. It is not helpful to read the scripture outside of the context of the Government and society existing. Various religions were all over the empire with their ruling authorities have law regarding them. Trial for civil crime was equal to religious crime.


Ac 22:25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?
Ac 22:26 When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.
Ac 22:27 Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.
Ac 22:29 Then straightway they departed from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him. {examined him: or, tortured him }
Ac 23:27 This man was taken of the Jews, and should have been killed of them: then came I with an army, and rescued him, having understood that he was a Roman.

Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

Bible Highlighter said:

Anyways, you need to deal with the verses I presented that clearly teach Non-Resistance in the New Testament. If things are as you say, then why are there so many verses that teach it?

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It was all concerning Paul's crime against religious law of the Jew's. That's why Christian persecution broke out against Christians. Once Rome knew they were not just a sect of Judaism, it was an illegal religion. All kinds of accusation were spread about Christians. It isn't about criminals as we know them today.
The same things Gentiles were suffering among Gentiles with their various religions they had to deal with when preaching the Gospel.

ralliann said:

I disagree. It is when your faith is the reason for the threat. Someone coming to kill me, I do not believe Christ called us to die simply because someone wants to kill me for pleasure. We suffer for our faith to keep it.

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Good thing is the Christ I worship is completely different then what you believe. If the Christ I worship would allow me to take another life for my “faith in Christ” then it would be no better than any other religion on earth. If Christ was o.k. with me taking another life to “Save myself ( self-difference) “ then Christianity would be same as Islam or Hinduism.

The Christ I worship, even though he is God, he sacrificed himself on the cross. If the Christ I worship would have used his power and killed his enemy, then he would not be any different then the prophet Muhammad and I would be wasting my entire life worshipping a false God.

Philippians 2 4-9

“Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:”


John 15:19–20

“If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they keep my word, they will also keep yours.”


Matthew 5:10–12

“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you”


Revelation 2:10–11

“Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.”

Tiberius Lee said:

Good thing is the Christ I worship is completely different then what you believe. If the Christ I worship would allow me to take another life for my “faith in Christ” then it would be no better than any other religion on earth.

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That is not what I said. I said we are to die for our faith. We are to accept death rather than deny Christ. Now in order for that to happen someone has to able, and willing to kill me if I don't deny it.
I don't know what you have been reading but it ain't what my posts have put forth.

JimR-OCDS said:

Native desire for European goods led them to trade with Europeans and contact is how they contacted diseases which killed 90% of the Indians.

Also, the Europeans were greatly outnumbered and only had primitive muskets which were inaccurate and took over a minute to load. Native Americans with spears, bows and arrows and tomahawks could easily wipe out Europeans.

In the west, the big asset the Comanche's had was the horse, which they were far better at riding and shooting from, than the white men. In fact, white soldiers would dismount and try to fight on foot and were easily defeated by the Comanche warriors on horseback. Comanches controlled most of the plains areas of the West. They were far more powerful than what current Native Americans reveal in their revisionists accounts.

As I said, Europeans weren't all nice either and the history must be studied in the context of those times and not try and use 21st Century hindsight to judge them.

Natives Tribes were savage toward other tribes, long before the white man arrived.

It wasn't all the white man's fault as we're taught today and which you seem to believe.

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Last I checked I couldn’t find the history where Native Americans sailed thousands of miles to Europe, killed Europeans and took over their land.

Tiberius Lee said:

Last I checked I couldn’t find the history where Native Americans sailed thousands of miles to Europe, killed Europeans and took over their land.

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Again Europeans were not the only people which did this. Indians did it to other Indians etc. Doesn't make it right, but it makes us human. All empires expanded or declined by these things. Europeans, nor other Americans are not somehow by nature something other races are not somewhere along the line

Tiberius Lee said:

Last I checked I couldn’t find the history where Native Americans sailed thousands of miles to Europe, killed Europeans and took over their land.

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Native Americans had no clue there was a land outside of where they existed nor did they have the ability to travel to those lands. Had they had the ability, they certainly would have and sought to conquer, as they did the tribes around them.
They were no different in seeking power and riches than any other humans.

Europeans didn't sail the world with the goal of killing indigenous people they found.

They did intend to defend themselves when needed and to bring the Gospel to the pagan cultures.

But mostly, they were adventurers in seek of fame and riches. It was the time they lived in and all cultures sought the same things and fought against their neighbors.

Not every Christian lived as a Saint.

In fact, even after the Catholic Church banned slavery, there were those Catholics who continued in the slave trade.

Heck, there are Catholics today who continue to be involved in abortion, despite the ban against it.

ralliann said:

Well, I agree. Scripture upholds civil government. So none in civil rule can be Christians? Or can Christians police or rulers use violence to stop a crime?

Or like Paul Who appealed to the soldiers his citizenship in order to force a fair trial. They were just going to take the crowds word for it, and flog him (which could lead to death)
That was illegal to do to a Roman citizen. They were afraid they had even bound him at that point. It is not helpful to read the scripture outside of the context of the Government and society existing. Various religions were all over the empire with their ruling authorities have law regarding them. Trial for civil crime was equal to religious crime.


Ac 22:25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?
Ac 22:26 When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.
Ac 22:27 Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.
Ac 22:29 Then straightway they departed from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him. {examined him: or, tortured him }
Ac 23:27 This man was taken of the Jews, and should have been killed of them: then came I with an army, and rescued him, having understood that he was a Roman.

Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

It was all concerning Paul's crime against religious law of the Jew's. That's why Christian persecution broke out against Christians. Once Rome knew they were not just a sect of Judaism, it was an illegal religion. All kinds of accusation were spread about Christians. It isn't about criminals as we know them today.
The same things Gentiles were suffering among Gentiles with their various religions they had to deal with when preaching the Gospel.

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Not sure what that has to do with anything I said. I was arguing for Christ's teachings on Non-Resistance. Do you agree with that teaching?

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Have Red Indians become Christians today?

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It appears so. Check out this article.

American Indians and Christianity | The Encyclopedia of Oklahoma History and Culture

Bible Highlighter said:

Not sure what that has to do with anything I said. I was arguing for Christ's teachings on Non-Resistance. Do you agree with that teaching?

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I disagree with you. We are to be willing to give up our lives for Christ. There are people out there who hate our faith and Lord. And they will persecute and kill because of it. End of story. A spiritual battle for the soul. You have not answered any of my questions concerning this conversation. Should we have stayed under the authority of the crown in the first place? Are any civil authorities to be Christians?

JimR-OCDS said:

Native Americans had no clue there was a land outside of where they existed nor did they have the ability to travel to those lands. Had they had the ability, they certainly would have and sought to conquer, as they did the tribes around them.
They were no different in seeking power and riches than any other humans.

Europeans didn't sail the world with the goal of killing indigenous people they found.

They did intend to defend themselves when needed and to bring the Gospel to the pagan cultures.

But mostly, they were adventurers in seek of fame and riches. It was the time they lived in and all cultures sought the same things and fought against their neighbors.

Not every Christian lived as a Saint.

In fact, even after the Catholic Church banned slavery, there were those Catholics who continued in the slave trade.

Heck, there are Catholics today who continue to be involved in abortion, despite the ban against it.

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The issue is those which are persecuted for their faith. If we suffer because we have committed a crime, we will pay for that just like everyone else. But we can also suffer for the sake of the gospel. Some can't see the difference.

ralliann said:

The issue is those which are persecuted for their faith. If we suffer because we have committed a crime, we will pay for that just like everyone else. But we can also suffer for the sake of the gospel. Some can't see the difference.

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There is no suffering for the gospel if you have a crowd at gunpoint if they act up violently.

Bible Highlighter said:

There is no suffering for the gospel if you have a crowd at gunpoint if they act up violently.

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Still won't address my questions? I think they were valid. As far as a crowd at gunpoint, who is talking about that? The governing authorities enforcing law and order in a society is not sin. Neither is defending yourself or your family from violence. However if there is a crowd threatening violence and persecution because you won't deny your faith, then you keep the faith and suffer for it. But in order for that to happen LEGALLY, the ruling authorities must allow it.