God Needs Us

CMDRExorcist said:

God doesn't need humanity...He wants humanity because He loves us.

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I would agree that God doesn't need us, being part of a trinity God is able to give and to receive love.
He does not need us, but out of a love for us he created us that we might experience both life and love.

God's creative ' urge' can be seen in the overabundance in creation, not two or three trees but hundreds of types of trees, ditto everything else in creation.

Hi - you that A.W. Tozer said:

God, being the God He was and is, and being infinitely perfect and infinitely beautiful and infinitely glorious and infinitely admirable and infinitely loving, out of His own inward necessity had to have some creature that was capable of admiring Him and loving Him and knowing Him.

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I would say this could be what some fathers hope for with their human children: there are parents who honorably want to be good for their children, and desire their children to benefit from them so they love and appreciate and admire their parents; but other parents do so much hard things to spoil their kids, then have an attitude of entitlement for respect, without bringing their kiddos up to know how to love as family and relate in marriage.

And we humans can have a way of representing God in ways which really are speaking for ourselves . . . not for God. The fancy word is "anthropomorphizing" > making to be like humans.

But I can see another side of the wording > God could desire to have lesser beings who can benefit from God . . . appreciating and admiring Him because of how greatly we benefit from having Him as our Father. It could be like how a number of men are told they would make good fathers, meaning they could be good for children and therefore they should have them.

Even so . . . I do not think this is the main focus of why God created the universe and humans.

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So . . . my take on this . . . God was so pleased with His Son Jesus, that He desired to have many children like Christ so delighting to Him. And this universe is God's place where He intended, all along, to have and bring up children who are becoming like Jesus.

Of course, this is so good for us, if God is doing this in us. And we greatly appreciate this, and admire how God is able to change us in our character so we are "blessed" the way Jesus says in His Sermon on the Mount > poor in spirit, meek, merciful, pure in heart . . . like Jesus is > this, I now see, was the focus of our Father and Jesus, right from the start of this message of Jesus.

You say A.W. Tozer said:

So God made man in His own image; in the image and likeness of God made He him; and He made him as near to being like Himself as it was possible for the creature to be like the Creator.

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God is almighty; so He could have made us incapable of sin. But He was not going to have humans be the first perfect beings on this planet. That honor was meant to be for Jesus, "that in all things He may have the preeminence." (in Colossians 1:18)

This was not intended to be just a narcissistic superiority sort of thing, though. But this includes how God made everything, but because "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16) and love is personal, He also pleases to be personally involved in and through all things. And so He came in Person as Jesus, to manifest this, and to share with us and go through what we do (Hebrews 4:15) and bring us with Him to our Father . . . to be family together, not just a bunch of perfect individuals all over the place.

CMDRExorcist said:

(Devotional for June 14: God's Inward Necessity) [REF: Genesis 1:27] I believe that He created man out of no external necessity. I believe it was an internal necessity. God, being the God He was and is, and being infinitely perfect and infinitely beautiful and infinitely glorious and infinitely admirable and infinitely loving, out of His own inward necessity had to have some creature that was capable of admiring Him and loving Him and knowing Him. So God made man in His own image; in the image and likeness of God made He him; and He made him as near to being like Himself as it was possible for the creature to be like the Creator. The most godlike thing in the universe is the soul of man. The reason God made man in His image was that he might appreciate God and admire and adore and worship; so that God might not be a picture, so to speak, hanging in a gallery with nobody looking at Him.

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I sort of agree with both you and Tozer.


The Christian God of the creeds etc. by definition is Self Existent and doesn't need anything. Love however is the very nature of the Trinity, and that was the motivation. It is a desire, but not a need in the strict sense of the word.

False premise with the OP. God being self sufficient has NO NEEDS. That’s known as a fallacious argument or a fallacy.

hope this helps !!!

Pavel Mosko said:

I sort of agree with both you and Tozer.


The Christian God of the creeds etc. by definition is Self Existent and doesn't need anything. Love however is the very nature of the Trinity, and that was the motivation. It is a desire, but not a need in the strict sense of the word.

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'
I agree. For God to desire something is very different from God needing something.

CMDRExorcist said:

I'm putting this in the controversial section because I'm not really sure where it belongs. So, here goes...

I read a devotional the other day that bothered me. This is from A.W. Tozer's Tozer for the Christian Leader, which is typically my go-to devotional to start the day:

(Devotional for June 14: God's Inward Necessity) [REF: Genesis 1:27] I believe that He created man out of no external necessity. I believe it was an internal necessity. God, being the God He was and is, and being infinitely perfect and infinitely beautiful and infinitely glorious and infinitely admirable and infinitely loving, out of His own inward necessity had to have some creature that was capable of admiring Him and loving Him and knowing Him. So God made man in His own image; in the image and likeness of God made He him; and He made him as near to being like Himself as it was possible for the creature to be like the Creator. The most godlike thing in the universe is the soul of man. The reason God made man in His image was that he might appreciate God and admire and adore and worship; so that God might not be a picture, so to speak, hanging in a gallery with nobody looking at Him.

The thing that bothers me is the idea that God created mankind solely for the purpose of worshipping him because He had a need for it. It seems extremely contradictory and adds a touch of narcissism to God's creation plan. Surely our loving God created us to experience life and love. To experience the universe that He created and to experience His divine glory. To say that God has an innate need to be worshipped seems to imply some deficiency, almost as though God gets his strength from his devoted worshippers, which, in my opinion, doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, this writing has really disturbed me and had me in deep contemplation a while. I typically love the stuff that comes out of this devotional. It's just that what I know about God, what I've seen, and what I've experienced, tells me that God doesn't need humanity...He wants humanity because He loves us.

Looking forward to being told that I'm overreaching, overreacting, simplifying, or just plain wrong here.

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We are a gift given by a loving, heavenly Father unto His only begotten beloved Son. By this, He is
magnifying His Name beyond His Word. To say it is a necessity might be a stretch, but it is something
in which He takes great delight. Nothing controversial about that in my mind!

John 6:
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me
I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
and I will raise him up at the last day.

CMDRExorcist said:

The thing that bothers me is the idea that God created mankind solely for the purpose of worshipping him because He had a need for it. It seems extremely contradictory and adds a touch of narcissism to God's creation plan. Surely our loving God created us to experience life and love. To experience the universe that He created and to experience His divine glory. To say that God has an innate need to be worshipped seems to imply some deficiency, almost as though God gets his strength from his devoted worshippers, which, in my opinion, doesn't make any sense.

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It is an interesting thought, but surely narcism is all about me

What I really mean is that narcissistic behaviour wants recognition even when it is not deserved... but God does deserve our worship, so it is not narcissistic.

I don't think you could say that God gets his 'strength' from his devoted worshippers, because that would render him pretty impotent given how bad we really are.

It might be truer to say that he allows us our freedom and our good, worshipful choices means that he has less to do (is God twiddling his thumbs )

Does that make sense?

CMDRExorcist said:

I'm putting this in the controversial section because I'm not really sure where it belongs. So, here goes...

I read a devotional the other day that bothered me. This is from A.W. Tozer's Tozer for the Christian Leader, which is typically my go-to devotional to start the day:

(Devotional for June 14: God's Inward Necessity) [REF: Genesis 1:27] I believe that He created man out of no external necessity. I believe it was an internal necessity. God, being the God He was and is, and being infinitely perfect and infinitely beautiful and infinitely glorious and infinitely admirable and infinitely loving, out of His own inward necessity had to have some creature that was capable of admiring Him and loving Him and knowing Him. So God made man in His own image; in the image and likeness of God made He him; and He made him as near to being like Himself as it was possible for the creature to be like the Creator. The most godlike thing in the universe is the soul of man. The reason God made man in His image was that he might appreciate God and admire and adore and worship; so that God might not be a picture, so to speak, hanging in a gallery with nobody looking at Him.

The thing that bothers me is the idea that God created mankind solely for the purpose of worshipping him because He had a need for it. It seems extremely contradictory and adds a touch of narcissism to God's creation plan. Surely our loving God created us to experience life and love. To experience the universe that He created and to experience His divine glory. To say that God has an innate need to be worshipped seems to imply some deficiency, almost as though God gets his strength from his devoted worshippers, which, in my opinion, doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, this writing has really disturbed me and had me in deep contemplation a while. I typically love the stuff that comes out of this devotional. It's just that what I know about God, what I've seen, and what I've experienced, tells me that God doesn't need humanity...He wants humanity because He loves us.

Looking forward to being told that I'm overreaching, overreacting, simplifying, or just plain wrong here.

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Wow! I agree with you. This sounds like the Muslim idea of God needing us to worship Him.

I promise you, we are much more trouble then we are worth.
God is Love, so God's great Love would compel God to make beings some of whom might humbly accept His undeserved charitable gifts as pure charity. God is a giver and does not "need" anything, especially from a created being, but He would create beings because He can create these beings, that He can gift (if they are willing to accept His gifts), so they can become like Himself (having Godly type Love.

CMDRExorcist said:

I'm putting this in the controversial section because I'm not really sure where it belongs. So, here goes...

I read a devotional the other day that bothered me. This is from A.W. Tozer's Tozer for the Christian Leader, which is typically my go-to devotional to start the day:

(Devotional for June 14: God's Inward Necessity) [REF: Genesis 1:27] I believe that He created man out of no external necessity. I believe it was an internal necessity. God, being the God He was and is, and being infinitely perfect and infinitely beautiful and infinitely glorious and infinitely admirable and infinitely loving, out of His own inward necessity had to have some creature that was capable of admiring Him and loving Him and knowing Him. So God made man in His own image; in the image and likeness of God made He him; and He made him as near to being like Himself as it was possible for the creature to be like the Creator. The most godlike thing in the universe is the soul of man. The reason God made man in His image was that he might appreciate God and admire and adore and worship; so that God might not be a picture, so to speak, hanging in a gallery with nobody looking at Him.

The thing that bothers me is the idea that God created mankind solely for the purpose of worshipping him because He had a need for it. It seems extremely contradictory and adds a touch of narcissism to God's creation plan. Surely our loving God created us to experience life and love. To experience the universe that He created and to experience His divine glory. To say that God has an innate need to be worshipped seems to imply some deficiency, almost as though God gets his strength from his devoted worshippers, which, in my opinion, doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, this writing has really disturbed me and had me in deep contemplation a while. I typically love the stuff that comes out of this devotional. It's just that what I know about God, what I've seen, and what I've experienced, tells me that God doesn't need humanity...He wants humanity because He loves us.

Looking forward to being told that I'm overreaching, overreacting, simplifying, or just plain wrong here.

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I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong at all. God is one God in three Persons, who are in perfect harmony and fellowship with each other with well-defined roles. God doesn't NEED us, but we desperately need him.

CMDRExorcist said:

The thing that bothers me is the idea that God created mankind solely for the purpose of worshipping him because He had a need for it. It seems extremely contradictory and adds a touch of narcissism to God's creation plan. Surely our loving God created us to experience life and love. To experience the universe that He created and to experience His divine glory. To say that God has an innate need to be worshipped seems to imply some deficiency, almost as though God gets his strength from his devoted worshippers, which, in my opinion, doesn't make any sense.

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It bothers me, as well;
Very much.

That is why I don't read Tozer...

Because it seemed, from his writings, that he somehow believed that he could theorize his way into the mind of God, when to me, that concept should be left well enough alone.

CMDRExorcist said:

I'm putting this in the controversial section because I'm not really sure where it belongs. So, here goes...

I read a devotional the other day that bothered me. This is from A.W. Tozer's Tozer for the Christian Leader, which is typically my go-to devotional to start the day:

(Devotional for June 14: God's Inward Necessity) [REF: Genesis 1:27] I believe that He created man out of no external necessity. I believe it was an internal necessity. God, being the God He was and is, and being infinitely perfect and infinitely beautiful and infinitely glorious and infinitely admirable and infinitely loving, out of His own inward necessity had to have some creature that was capable of admiring Him and loving Him and knowing Him. So God made man in His own image; in the image and likeness of God made He him; and He made him as near to being like Himself as it was possible for the creature to be like the Creator. The most godlike thing in the universe is the soul of man. The reason God made man in His image was that he might appreciate God and admire and adore and worship; so that God might not be a picture, so to speak, hanging in a gallery with nobody looking at Him.

The thing that bothers me is the idea that God created mankind solely for the purpose of worshipping him because He had a need for it. It seems extremely contradictory and adds a touch of narcissism to God's creation plan. Surely our loving God created us to experience life and love. To experience the universe that He created and to experience His divine glory. To say that God has an innate need to be worshipped seems to imply some deficiency, almost as though God gets his strength from his devoted worshippers, which, in my opinion, doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, this writing has really disturbed me and had me in deep contemplation a while. I typically love the stuff that comes out of this devotional. It's just that what I know about God, what I've seen, and what I've experienced, tells me that God doesn't need humanity...He wants humanity because He loves us.

Looking forward to being told that I'm overreaching, overreacting, simplifying, or just plain wrong here.

Click to expand...

God doesn't need us, but as the being He is, the being who loves, who is love, He naturally wishes to share that love and goodness with others. To the extent that we respond in love, we begin to experience the happiness that He knows in unbridled form and that He wants all of us to experience in greater and greater measure.

Navair2 said:

It bothers me, as well;
Very much.

That is why I don't read Tozer...

Because it seemed, from his writings, that he somehow believed that he could theorize his way into the mind of God, when to me, that concept should be left well enough alone.

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Surely we should all be aiming to know the mind (will) of God. That people get it wrong is to be expected, which is why we have the Bible as a fallback.

I certainly don't think it is a concept that should be left alone, just not one that we should say that we have definitively found. i.e. we are not the arbiters of the mind of God, only the seekers after it.

CMDRExorcist said:

I'm putting this in the controversial section because I'm not really sure where it belongs. So, here goes...

I read a devotional the other day that bothered me. This is from A.W. Tozer's Tozer for the Christian Leader, which is typically my go-to devotional to start the day:

(Devotional for June 14: God's Inward Necessity) [REF: Genesis 1:27] I believe that He created man out of no external necessity. I believe it was an internal necessity. God, being the God He was and is, and being infinitely perfect and infinitely beautiful and infinitely glorious and infinitely admirable and infinitely loving, out of His own inward necessity had to have some creature that was capable of admiring Him and loving Him and knowing Him. So God made man in His own image; in the image and likeness of God made He him; and He made him as near to being like Himself as it was possible for the creature to be like the Creator. The most godlike thing in the universe is the soul of man. The reason God made man in His image was that he might appreciate God and admire and adore and worship; so that God might not be a picture, so to speak, hanging in a gallery with nobody looking at Him.

The thing that bothers me is the idea that God created mankind solely for the purpose of worshipping him because He had a need for it. It seems extremely contradictory and adds a touch of narcissism to God's creation plan. Surely our loving God created us to experience life and love. To experience the universe that He created and to experience His divine glory. To say that God has an innate need to be worshipped seems to imply some deficiency, almost as though God gets his strength from his devoted worshippers, which, in my opinion, doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, this writing has really disturbed me and had me in deep contemplation a while. I typically love the stuff that comes out of this devotional. It's just that what I know about God, what I've seen, and what I've experienced, tells me that God doesn't need humanity...He wants humanity because He loves us.

Looking forward to being told that I'm overreaching, overreacting, simplifying, or just plain wrong here.

Click to expand...

God is Self Sufficient (Aseity) thus has no "needs".

Jesus is YHWH said:

False premise with the OP. God being self sufficient has NO NEEDS. That’s known as a fallacious argument or a fallacy.

hope this helps !!!

Click to expand...

It seems that this topic is calling into question the definition of God's self-sufficiency. In what way, or ways, does he not need us? Certainly not to survive. But don't needs extend beyond the bare necessities of survival?

And why create humankind in his own image/likeness if it fulfills no need. Do we procreate for no reason? Isn't our relationship with our children a reflection Him? I suppose we could say we don't "need" our children. See if we still feel that way after losing one. (ouch)

I saw a bumper sticker recently about pet adoption as animal rescue. Over the image of a paw print were these words: WHO RESCUED WHO?

Saint Steven said:

It seems that this topic is calling into question the definition of God's self-sufficiency. In what way, or ways, does he not need us? Certainly not to survive. But don't needs extend beyond the bare necessities of survival?

And why create humankind in his own image/likeness if it fulfills no need. Do we procreate for no reason? Isn't our relationship with our children a reflection Him? I suppose we could say we don't "need" our children. See if we still feel that way after losing one. (ouch)

I saw a bumper sticker recently about pet adoption as animal rescue. Over the image of a paw print were these words: WHO RESCUED WHO?

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How long did God exist prior to creation ?

Wrap your mind around that thought and then think of His Aseity.

Jesus is YHWH said:

How long did God exist prior to creation ?

Wrap your mind around that thought and then think of His Aseity.

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How long? (you ask)
Was there time before creation? (wrap your mind around that) - lol

We are still left with the question: Why did God create us in his image, in his likeness? And then go one step further and call us his children and he being our heavenly Father.

As the moon reflects the light of the sun, our human families reflect the nature of God's relationship with us. Do we need our children? It depends on what you mean by "need".

We could survive without them. But there is more to life than mere survival.

Saint Steven said: ↑
It seems that this topic is calling into question the definition of God's self-sufficiency. In what way, or ways, does he not need us? Certainly not to survive. But don't needs extend beyond the bare necessities of survival?

And why create humankind in his own image/likeness if it fulfills no need. Do we procreate for no reason? Isn't our relationship with our children a reflection Him? I suppose we could say we don't "need" our children. See if we still feel that way after losing one. (ouch)

I saw a bumper sticker recently about pet adoption as animal rescue. Over the image of a paw print were these words: WHO RESCUED WHO?

CMDRExorcist said:

I'm putting this in the controversial section because I'm not really sure where it belongs. So, here goes...

I read a devotional the other day that bothered me. This is from A.W. Tozer's Tozer for the Christian Leader, which is typically my go-to devotional to start the day:

(Devotional for June 14: God's Inward Necessity) [REF: Genesis 1:27] I believe that He created man out of no external necessity. I believe it was an internal necessity. God, being the God He was and is, and being infinitely perfect and infinitely beautiful and infinitely glorious and infinitely admirable and infinitely loving, out of His own inward necessity had to have some creature that was capable of admiring Him and loving Him and knowing Him. So God made man in His own image; in the image and likeness of God made He him; and He made him as near to being like Himself as it was possible for the creature to be like the Creator. The most godlike thing in the universe is the soul of man. The reason God made man in His image was that he might appreciate God and admire and adore and worship; so that God might not be a picture, so to speak, hanging in a gallery with nobody looking at Him.

The thing that bothers me is the idea that God created mankind solely for the purpose of worshipping him because He had a need for it. It seems extremely contradictory and adds a touch of narcissism to God's creation plan. Surely our loving God created us to experience life and love. To experience the universe that He created and to experience His divine glory. To say that God has an innate need to be worshipped seems to imply some deficiency, almost as though God gets his strength from his devoted worshippers, which, in my opinion, doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, this writing has really disturbed me and had me in deep contemplation a while. I typically love the stuff that comes out of this devotional. It's just that what I know about God, what I've seen, and what I've experienced, tells me that God doesn't need humanity...He wants humanity because He loves us.

Looking forward to being told that I'm overreaching, overreacting, simplifying, or just plain wrong here.

Click to expand...

This is an interesting and important topic. Thanks.

Did you ever buy something that was very expensive that you didn't need?

It reminds me of us and the price that God paid for us.