Age of the Universe in Jewish Chronology

Humble_Disciple · Jun 24, 2021

Young earth creationists insist that the universe is less than 10,000 years old. While humanity may have begun, according to the Jewish commentaries, 5700 years ago, that doesn't mean the creation itself is only 5700 years old:

Rosh Hashanah commemorate the creation of the Neshama, the soul of human life. We start counting our 5700-plus years from the creation of the soul of Adam.

We have a clock that begins with Adam, and the six days are separate from this clock. The Bible has two clocks.

That might seem like a modern rationalization, if it were not for the fact that Talmudic commentaries 1500 years ago, brings this information. In the Midrash (Vayikra Rabba 29:1), an expansion of the Talmud, all the Sages agree that Rosh Hashanah commemorates the soul of Adam, and that the Six Days of Genesis are separate.

Why were the Six Days taken out of the calendar? Because time is described differently in those Six Days of Genesis...

The Talmud (Chagiga, ch. 2) tells us that from the opening sentence of the Bible, through the beginning of Chapter Two, the entire text is given in parable form, a poem with a text and a subtext.
Age of the Universe

The Talmud considers the story of creation to contain some of the deepest secrets of Kabbalah, which may be taught only to a single student at a time (Mishna Hagigah 2:1).

Further, the Sages clearly exclude the first days of Genesis – before Adam’s creation – from our regular calendar. The current count of 5775 years from Creation actually counts from the first day of Adam’s life (on Rosh Hashanah), not the first day of creation. The earlier days, before the world’s first Rosh Hashanah, are described as part of the “year of tohu (emptiness, chaos).” It is thus entirely possible that the “days” referred to in the story of Creation do not mean 24-hour days but epochs. (See this article which discusses this at length.)
Is the Torah Literal?: Ask the Rabbi Response

The medieval commentator Isaac of Akko dated the creation to be 15 billion years old, which corresponds to Big Bang cosmology:

Rabbi Isaac of Akko who lived between 1250-1350 C.E., wrote in Ozar HaHayyim, since 6 cycles existed before the creation of Adam, their chronology must be measured in "Divine years," not in "human years." How do we measure a "Divine year"? According to Psalm 90:4, there is a hint at the manner of measuring a Divine year: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day."

Therefore, according to Rabbi Isaac, the universe would be 42,000 divine years (i.e.. the six preceding cycles of 7,000 year each) x 365,250 human years (365.25 days in a year, with each divine day =1,000 "human years"). This equals 15,340,500,000. Modern science has concluded from calculations based on the expanding universe and cosmological observations, that the universe is 15 billion years old. Here we see the same calculation from a Torah source written over 700 years ago!
Bereishit 5767

Even if the universe were 15 billion years old, this wouldn’t automatically prove that evolution is true, which is a separate matter from the age of the universe.

Amazingly, the medieval commentator Nachmanides predicted Big Bang cosmology:

At the briefest instant following creation, all the matter of the universe was concentrated in a very small place, no larger than a grain of mustard. . . . From the initial concentration of this intangible substance in its minute location, the substance expanded, expanding the universe as it did so. As the expansion progressed, a change in the substance occurred.
Big Bang | Torah and Science

Since everything that begins to exist has a cause, God was the uncaused first cause of the Big Bang. According to Isaiah 42:5 and Job 9:8, God “stretched out” the heavens, which corresponds to the Big Bang.

Orthodox Jewish physicist Gerald Schroeder, who advances the position that Big Bang cosmology demonstrates the existence of God, is also critical of Darwinian evolution:

As Niles Eldredge, curator at the American Museum of Natural History, NYC, wrote in the New York Times, “The fossil record that we were told to find for the past 150 years (since Charles Darwin ) does not exist.” Darwin insisted that “natura non facit saltum,” that nature does not make jumps. In fact, the flow of life as recorded in the fossil record has many jumps in complexity. The great trade secret of paleontology is that the fossil record does not confirm Darwin. Never did I expect to read in the esteemed, peer reviewed journal, Science, the following: “Did Darwin get it all right?” And the sub-title was no, species appear with a most un-Darwinian rapidity. The problems of evolution begin with the origin of life (Richard Dawkins attributes the origin of life to “luck.”) and continue through the fossil record. Most precisely, the oldest rocks that can bear fossils already have fossils of microbes, some undergoing cell division. Nature “invented” DNA, RNA, cell structure, cell function with startling rapidity...

What caused the big bang is still being debated. Scientists suggest that within the laws of nature, the concept of a quantum fluctuation could create a universe. This of course assumes that: 1) the laws of nature (not physical nature, but totally abstract, non-physical laws of nature) pre-date the universe; 2) that these laws are eternal or timeless, outside of time; and 3) that within these eternal laws is the property of a quantum fluctuation that under extreme conditions can produce the physical universe from absolute nothing. Now all this sounds very much like the biblical definition of God. The Bible tells us that the eternal, non-physical God created the universe – perhaps working through the laws of nature. Recall that in the Exodus account, God used a force of nature, a strong east wind, to split the sea (Exodus 14:21). And that the only name for God in Genesis One is Elokim, God as made manifest in nature.
Top Five Scientific Myths Popularly Accepted as Fact | Gerald Schroeder

Gene2memE · Jun 24, 2021

According to evidence from reality, the Jewish tradition on the age of creation is wrong.

EDIT: Also, modern science has not concluded that the Big Bang occurred approximately 15 billion years ago. Modern science has concluded the universe is ~13.77 billion years, plus or minus about 50 million years.

Humble_Disciple · Jun 24, 2021

Gene2memE said:
EDIT: Also, modern science has not concluded that the Big Bang occurred approximately 15 billion years ago. Modern science has concluded the universe is ~13.77 billion years, plus or minus about 50 million years.

For a medieval dating, that would still be an extremely high level of accuracy.

Gene2memE · Jun 24, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
For a medieval dating, that would still be an extremely high level of accuracy.

Out by more than 10%? *Snort* Not really.

Humble_Disciple · Jun 24, 2021

Gene2memE said:
Out by more than 10%? *Snort* Not really.

The medieval commentator Nachmanides predicted Big Bang cosmology:

At the briefest instant following creation, all the matter of the universe was concentrated in a very small place, no larger than a grain of mustard. . . . From the initial concentration of this intangible substance in its minute location, the substance expanded, expanding the universe as it did so. As the expansion progressed, a change in the substance occurred.
Big Bang | Torah and Science

Aryeh Jay · Jun 24, 2021

Gene2memE said:
Out by more than 10%? *Snort* Not really.

1.23 billion years + or - 50 million is not over 10%.

Bradskii · Jun 24, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
According to traditional Jewish chronology, the creation is less than 10,000 years old:

According to the Talmud the planet can't be more than 6,000 years old from the moment of creation. And then the Messiah comes at Shabbat - which is apparently 2239. As he hasn't yet...

Humble_Disciple · Jun 24, 2021

Bradskii said:
According to the Talmud the planet can't be more than 6,000 years old from the moment of creation. And then the Messiah comes at Shabbat - which is apparently 2239. As he hasn't yet...

Where does the Talmud say that the six days of Genesis 1 were literal, 24-hour days? While humanity may have begun, according to the Talmud, 5,700 years ago, that doesn't mean the creation itself is only 5,700 years old:

Rosh Hashanah commemorate the creation of the Neshama, the soul of human life. We start counting our 5700-plus years from the creation of the soul of Adam.

We have a clock that begins with Adam, and the six days are separate from this clock. The Bible has two clocks.

That might seem like a modern rationalization, if it were not for the fact that Talmudic commentaries 1500 years ago, brings this information. In the Midrash (Vayikra Rabba 29:1), an expansion of the Talmud, all the Sages agree that Rosh Hashanah commemorates the soul of Adam, and that the Six Days of Genesis are separate.

Why were the Six Days taken out of the calendar? Because time is described differently in those Six Days of Genesis...

The Talmud (Chagiga, ch. 2) tells us that from the opening sentence of the Bible, through the beginning of Chapter Two, the entire text is given in parable form, a poem with a text and a subtext.
Age of the Universe

The Talmud considers the story of creation to contain some of the deepest secrets of Kabbalah, which may be taught only to a single student at a time (Mishna Hagigah 2:1).

Further, the Sages clearly exclude the first days of Genesis – before Adam’s creation – from our regular calendar. The current count of 5775 years from Creation actually counts from the first day of Adam’s life (on Rosh Hashanah), not the first day of creation. The earlier days, before the world’s first Rosh Hashanah, are described as part of the “year of tohu (emptiness, chaos).” It is thus entirely possible that the “days” referred to in the story of Creation do not mean 24-hour days but epochs. (See this article which discusses this at length.)
https://www.aish.com/atr/Is-the-Torah-Literal.html

Bradskii · Jun 24, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Where does the Talmud say that the six days of Genesis 1 were literal, 24-hour days? While humanity may have begun, according to the Talmud, 5700 years ago, that doesn't mean the creation itself is only 5,700 years old:

It certainly implies it because it says that the 6,000 years is up in 2239. So creation was in 3671 BC.

And in any case, I'm not sure what point you are making by quoting an obscure medieval Jewish philosopher, tying in one interpretation of the age of the planet and then multiplying it by a nice round number to get something roughly the known time since the big bang.

Which, unless I'm mistaken, you think is completely wrong anyway.

Ophiolite · Jun 24, 2021

Gene2memE said:
Out by more than 10%? *Snort* Not really.

I'm reasonably sure the early scientific estimates of the age of the BB were out by a lot more than that. Perhaps you were aiming for humourously flippant.

Estrid · Jun 24, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
While humanity may have begun, according to the Talmud, 5,700 years ago, that doesn't mean the creation itself is only 5,700 years old:

According to medieval Kabbalah, which interprets the Torah mystically, the universe is 15 billion years old, which roughly corresponds to Big Bang cosmology:

Even if the universe were 15 billion years old, this wouldn’t automatically prove that evolution is true, which is a separate matter from the age of the universe.

Amazingly, the medieval commentator Nachmanides predicted Big Bang cosmology:

Since everything that begins to exist has a cause, God was the uncaused first cause of the Big Bang.

Orthodox Jewish physicist Gerald Schroeder, who advances the position that Big Bang cosmology demonstrates the existence of God, is also critical of Darwinian evolution:

Nobody agrees with all of what Darwin
wrote. Nor Plato, Aristotle, Newton,
or Einstein.
There is nothing dreadfully clever in mentioning
that they made mistakes.
Your paleontologist in no way disputes the
validity of ToE.
What point are you trying to make?

Estrid · Jun 24, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
The medieval commentator Nachmanides predicted Big Bang cosmology:

The quote certainly is not written in medieval English,
so something is faked up there.

The IbanezerScrooge · Jun 24, 2021

Estrid said:
The quote certainly is not written in medieval English,
so something is faked up there.

No, no. It's the "quantum" torah. Totally legit.

Estrid · Jun 24, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
While humanity may have begun, according to the Talmud, 5,700 years ago, that doesn't mean the creation itself is only 5,700 years old:

According to medieval Kabbalah, which interprets the Torah mystically, the universe is 15 billion years old, which roughly corresponds to Big Bang cosmology:

Even if the universe were 15 billion years old, this wouldn’t automatically prove that evolution is true, which is a separate matter from the age of the universe.

Amazingly, the medieval commentator Nachmanides predicted Big Bang cosmology:

Since everything that begins to exist has a cause, God was the uncaused first cause of the Big Bang.

Orthodox Jewish physicist Gerald Schroeder, who advances the position that Big Bang cosmology demonstrates the existence of God, is also critical of Darwinian evolution:

We trust this is not another drive - by, posted
for no identified purpose, and with few to no
responses to questions or criticism.

Humble_Disciple · Jun 24, 2021

The medieval commentator Nachmanides predicted Big Bang cosmology:

At the briefest instant following creation, all the matter of the universe was concentrated in a very small place, no larger than a grain of mustard. . . . From the initial concentration of this intangible substance in its minute location, the substance expanded, expanding the universe as it did so. As the expansion progressed, a change in the substance occurred.
Big Bang | Torah and Science

If you don't think that's amazing, there might be something wrong with you. According to Isaiah 42:5 and Job 9:8, God “stretched out” the heavens, which corresponds to the Big Bang.

Estrid · Jun 24, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
The medieval commentator Nachmanides predicted Big Bang cosmology:

If you don't think that's amazing, there might be something wrong with you. According to Isaiah 42:5 and Job 9:8, God “stretched out” the heavens, which corresponds to the Big Bang.

Aristotle and Leucretius both expressed the same
idea hundreds of years before Nachmanudes did.

As for "stretched out", we'll, that is a "stretch".

If your book is soon scientific, what is the flood
story doing in there,

Oh, and it appears I am right about drive by, as
you are just posting for no stated purpose and
ignoring responses.

AV1611VET · Jun 24, 2021

Estrid said:
Aristotle and Leucretius both expressed the same
idea hundreds of years before Nachmanides did.

And Job hundreds of years before they.

Estrid said:
As for "stretched out", we'll, that is a "stretch".

Yupper!

Estrid said:
If your book is soo scientific, what is the flood story doing in there.

Author's choice.

pitabread · Jun 24, 2021

Meanwhile from the Young-Earth creation camp:

The Bible clearly teaches the young-earth creationist view of Genesis 1–11. That was the almost universal belief of the church for 1800 years. Progressive Creationism and Theistic Evolutionism in all their various forms (day-age view, gap theory, framework hypothesis, analogical days view, local flood view, etc.) are recent and novel interpretations that will not stand up to scrutiny with an open Bible. A growing body of overwhelming scientific evidence also shows that evolution and millions of years are religiously motivated myths masquerading as scientific fact.39

Furthermore, the literal history of Genesis 1-11 is absolutely foundational to the truth of the rest of the Bible and the gospel itself. Taking these early chapters of Genesis in any other way undermines God’s Word and the gospel of Jesus Christ, and over the past 200 years such compromises with evolution and millions of years have done incalculable damage to the spiritual health and evangelistic and missionary efforts of the Church. That compromise is one of the greatest reasons, if not the greatest reason, that Western Europe is now labeled “post-Christian” and Britain and America are rapidly approaching that spiritual state. Ultimately, the question of the age of the earth is a question of the truth and authority of Scripture. That’s why the age of the earth matters so much and why the church cannot compromise with millions of years (or evolution).

Young-Earth Creationist View Summarized And Defended

It's funny how OP's past rhetoric about evolution is not unlike the young-Earth creationist rhetoric about an old Earth. I guess OP would be considered one of those Biblical compromisers in the eyes of YECs.

essentialsaltes · Jun 24, 2021

<Puts on giant sarcasm hat>

Oh, like Jews could know more about Genesis than Christians.

<Removes giant sarcasm hat>

Gene2memE · Jun 24, 2021

Aryeh Jay said:
1.23 billion years + or - 50 million is not over 10%.

The estimate was not "15 billion years", but 15.3405 billion years. The exact calculation was given in the OP's quoted text.

Given a 13.77 billion year age of the universe (+/- 0.050 billion), then that's a 1.5705 billion year error.

Depending on which number you want to use as a comparative:

(15.3405-13.77)/13.77*100 = 11.4%.
or
(15.3405-13.77)/15.3405*100 = 10.2%.

So, yes, it is over 10%.

Ophiolite said:
I'm reasonably sure the early scientific estimates of the age of the BB were out by a lot more than that. Perhaps you were aiming for humourously flippant.

Is anyone claiming those early estimates about the age of the universe were "extremely accurate"? Because that's what I was snorting about.

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