A political 2022 Referendum

durangodawood

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Independents are rare birds because Democrats push how the only way to vote against Republicans is to vote for a Democrat. And Republicans push how the only way to vote against a Democrat is to vote Republican. And since most people are voting against someone it's either Tweedle Dee or Tweedle Dum.

I try to get people out of that trap, but politics in America is really the politics of hating the other clan. It isn't about voting for a good candidate.
Youre in the trap. So am I..... so long as we keep the voting system we've got.
 
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Guinan

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I'll vote Democratic in 2022 and 2024 as long as Trump and his yes-man loyalists have control of the GOP. I don't think there will be a Never Trump Republican who could rise to the level of popularity as Trump in order to defeat him or one of his loyalists in the '22 and '24 elections. Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't see a scenario like that happening in these elections. I'm not holding my breath.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I'll vote Democratic in 2022 and 2024 as long as Trump and his yes-man loyalists have control of the GOP. I don't think there will be a Never Trump Republican who could rise to the level of popularity as Trump in order to defeat him or one of his loyalists in the '22 and '24 elections. Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't see a scenario like that happening in these elections. I'm not holding my breath.
So because you don’t like Trump you will instead become a Democrat? No other options available?
 
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Yttrium

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I'll vote for the candidate that has the best chance of beating the Trump Party candidate, whoever that might be. Which will of course be a Democrat.

Of course, it's always possible that the Democrats could come up with a candidate just as bad, but that's hard to imagine. If it ever happens, I'll worry about it then.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I'll vote for the candidate that has the best chance of beating the Trump Party candidate, whoever that might be. Which will of course be a Democrat.

Of course, it's always possible that the Democrats could come up with a candidate just as bad, but that's hard to imagine. If it ever happens, I'll worry about it then.
Hard to imagine but they did come up with Hillary Clinton. And not to be topped, they came up with Joe Biden. Rational people want better candidates than that.
 
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Yttrium

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Hard to imagine but they did come up with Hillary Clinton. And not to be topped, they came up with Joe Biden. Rational people want better candidates than that.

Sure, I'd like better candidates, but I don't consider either of them to be nearly as bad as Trump.
 
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Guinan

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So because you don’t like Trump you will instead become a Democrat? No other options available?

I actually voted third party in the 2016 presidential election because I didn't want to vote for Trump or Clinton. It was first time that I didn't vote Republican since I registered to vote in 1992. I voted for Biden with the sincere hope that he would defeat Trump and he would be a better President. He is the first Democrat I've ever voted for and he won't be the last if Trump continues to control the GOP.

As far as I'm concerned, the Republican Party was sold out to Trump by a horde of Republican leaders who threw the GOP under the bus in an effort to advance their own political career. I wish I could vote Republican in the mid-terms and in the next presidential election, but I won't if Trump and his loyalists are still in control of the GOP. I will continue to vote Democratic if that's what it takes to diminish his control and influence over the party. I'd rather see the Republican Party crash and burn than continue to be under his control. If it has to crash and burn in order to be free of Donald Trump, then so be it.

I've been asked why I haven't switched parties and I've honestly thought about it. I made the decision to stick it out and continue to speak out against Trump as a Never Trump Republican. I still think my opposition to him will be more effective if I remained in the Republican Party. I have put a lot of effort into encouraging other Never Trump Republicans to publicly speak out against him more often too.

I spent years in lockstep with the GOP, but the rise of Trump shook me to my senses and I learned a hard lesson. I won't ever be loyal to the party again as long as he has control and influence over it.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Interesting. I was raised a Democrat, a Humphrey Democrat. I met and kind of liked Eugene McCarthy but I was solidly in the Farmer-Labor wing of the Minnesota DFL party. Later that same party became the party of abortion and they made it clear there was no room for anyone like me. After years of resistance I took the never subtle hint and reluctantly joined the other party. They were way more welcoming of me and my Humphrey Democratic Party positions than the Democrats were of a pro-life Democrat. I even ended up very briefly on the State Central Committee.

When Trump came along most of us at the State Convention were opposed to him. But he had won too many primaries and could not be stopped. He was popular with primary voters because at that the me the media were all in favor of Trump. It was only after he had the nomination sewn up that the media switched on a dime to being against Trump. The media loved him until they hated him.

I am a never Trumper. I quit the GOP rather than sell my soul to Trump. But I didn’t sell my soul to Hillary or to old Joe either. We dodged a bullet with Hillary but got shot by a Trump bullet. Last election we dodged the second Trump bullet but got shot by the Harris-Biden bullet. And most everybody in the country still thinks we need to belong to one of these two big and out of touch parties.
 
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stevil

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That's basically how your statement above is framed...you're expecting pro-life, pro traditional marriage, anti-marijuana, anti universal healthcare, etc...
They aren't pro-life. They proved that with the anti-mask, anti social distancing, anti vaccine shenanigans.
They are anti-abortion because they think their money goes towards funding that and they would rather keep their money.
They are anti universal healthcare because they think their money goes towards funding that and they would rather keep their money.
There really is no such thing as pro traditional marriage. Noone is trying to ban traditional marriages. They are anti-gay marriages because "bigotry" is a thing. Their thing.
They aren't anti-marijuana, they are anti immigration because they think it will keep out the Mexicans and Muslims. Calling Mexicans drug dealers was just a way to legitimise a wall to keep Mexicans out.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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They aren't pro-life. They proved that with the anti-mask, anti social distancing, anti vaccine shenanigans.
They are anti-abortion because they think their money goes towards funding that and they would rather keep their money.
They are anti universal healthcare because they think their money goes towards funding that and they would rather keep their money.
There really is no such thing as pro traditional marriage. Noone is trying to ban traditional marriages. They are anti-gay marriages because "bigotry" is a thing. Their thing.
They aren't anti-marijuana, they are anti immigration because they think it will keep out the Mexicans and Muslims. Calling Mexicans drug dealers was just a way to legitimise a wall to keep Mexicans out.

My point wasn't really about the details of their positions, everyone's positions have some self-contradiction in the mix.

My point was about the expectation that a person should have to abandon every other political position they have and vote for the other side, otherwise they're somehow complicit in, or were in favor of the capitol insurrection.

The example could've been made with a different set of issues, those just happened to be ones I chose at random to illustrate my point.

Saying "2022 is a referendum on whether you support democratic fair elections, or if you support insurrectionists and voter fraud lies" is as disingenuous as when republicans try to frame it as "the upcoming elections are a referendum on whether you support law and order, or whether you support looting and property destruction"

It'd be unreasonable to expect a democrat (who's pro-choice, pro-environment, in favor of gun control, and pro-LGBT) to have to vote GOP just to prove they're not in support of looting. You'd agree, yes?


The reality is, the majority of republicans were against what happened in the capitol riots, much like most democrats are against the types of property destruction and looting that too place in riots around the country.

79% of Republicans say it is important that federal law enforcement agencies find and prosecute those responsible for the Jan. 6 riot

They may hold views that are self-contradicting on other issues, they may hold views that we think are sort of backwards and outdated on other issues, but the reality is, the majority of republicans didn't support what happened on Jan. 6.

I don't think it's necessarily fair to basically try to strong arm them into voting for the other team (that opposes them on the majority of issues) by making it sound like "unless you vote for democrats, that must mean you support the insurrectionists"
 
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hedrick

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My point wasn't really about the details of their positions, everyone's positions have some self-contradiction in the mix.

My point was about the expectation that a person should have to abandon every other political position they have and vote for the other side, otherwise they're somehow complicit in, or were in favor of the capitol insurrection.

The example could've been made with a different set of issues, those just happened to be ones I chose at random to illustrate my point.

Saying "2022 is a referendum on whether you support democratic fair elections, or if you support insurrectionists and voter fraud lies" is as disingenuous as when republicans try to frame it as "the upcoming elections are a referendum on whether you support law and order, or whether you support looting and property destruction"

It'd be unreasonable to expect a democrat (who's pro-choice, pro-environment, in favor of gun control, and pro-LGBT) to have to vote GOP just to prove they're not in support of looting. You'd agree, yes?
Every decision is a tradeoff. Most Republican politicians aren't so closely tied to that fiasco that it would dominate everything else. Fortunately there are plenty of other reasons not to want them.
 
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mark46

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So because you don’t like Trump you will instead become a Democrat? No other options available?

If Trump is running, there are no other good options, other than Democrat.

Consider 2020. It took ALL those opposed to Trump to defeat him. A few more choosing a non--Democratic option, and Trump would now be president.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Every decision is a tradeoff. Most Republican politicians aren't so closely tied to that fiasco that it would dominate everything else. Fortunately there are plenty of other reasons not to want them.

That really depends on what part of the country you live in... the Overton Window is very different based on region.

In the deep red areas, democrats are basically moderates, in the deep blue areas, republicans are basically moderates.

If I lived in the south or mid-atlantic regions, I'd be voting democrat almost every single time.

If I lived on the west coast or in the New England region, there'd probably be some republicans who would more closely reflect my views.

I'd vote for a Doug Jones or Joe Manchin over a Roy Moore a million times over.

However, if Governor Charlie Baker of Mass. decided to pursue a House seat instead of his current Governorship and went against Ayanna Pressley, the decision would be easy, I'd vote for Charlie Baker.
 
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stevil

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My point wasn't really about the details of their positions, everyone's positions have some self-contradiction in the mix.
Sure. Sorry to distract. I just get annoyed with the "war of words" that goes on. My bad.

My point was about the expectation that a person should have to abandon every other political position they have and vote for the other side, otherwise they're somehow complicit in, or were in favor of the capitol insurrection.
You made a good point.

It'd be unreasonable to expect a democrat (who's pro-choice, pro-environment, in favor of gun control, and pro-LGBT) to have to vote GOP just to prove they're not in support of looting. You'd agree, yes?
I don't live in USA, I just see the big highlights.
I find it very difficult to understand USA, (USA politics and USA mentality) perhaps that is why I am finding it so intriguing, its a mystery.

In my country we haven't had the level of shenanigans that go on in USA. Our left and right aren't polls apart, we don't have these wedge issues, but also we have a multi-party system and we use MMP where often parties need to band together to form a government. The USA electoral system was much like our old First Past the Post (FPP) system which sometimes resulted in a party gaining control even though they got less overall votes. We abandoned that silly system.

I personally have voted at various times for both the major parties (left, right) and I have also voted for a minor party. There was one election where I didn't trust the guy that was the leader of my preferred party. He wasn't a politician, was only interested in being in a political party if he was going to be prime minister. He wanted to get rid of NZ's nuclear ban. He seemed more interested in personal power than the country. So I voted against him, even though I preferred his party's policies in general. He didn't get into power and he left that party soon after the election.

Personally I wouldn't support a party that attempted a violent insurrection, that tried to invalidate the election process, that put pressure on allies to announce investigations into political opponents. If I were an American and I liked Republican policies and hated Democrat policies I would either refuse to vote or I'd pick a third party.
But that is me. I wouldn't go so far as to accuse all Republican voters of supporting the insurrection. But I would wonder about people that continue to vote for Trump in the primaries.
But hey, I understand that there are huge mis-information campaigns over there and huge wedge issues. I actually struggle to see how USA can continue as a collective of 50 states, maybe one day you guys will separate, like what happened to USSR.

The reality is, the majority of republicans were against what happened in the capitol riots, much like most democrats are against the types of property destruction and looting that too place in riots around the country.
Well there are heaps of Republican members who are saying that there wasn't an insurrection, that it was just capitol tourists, or peaceful protesters, or Antifa in disguise, or planned by the FBI???
And I suppose those Republican members will again get voted into office??
And Trump still seems very popular with the Republican supporters.

79% of Republicans say it is important that federal law enforcement agencies find and prosecute those responsible for the Jan. 6 riot
Did they get upset when the Republican Senators voted against a bipartisan investigation?

I don't think it's necessarily fair to basically try to strong arm them into voting for the other team (that opposes them on the majority of issues) by making it sound like "unless you vote for democrats, that must mean you support the insurrectionists"
It's just words, I'm sure it won't sway their vote.
 
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chevyontheriver

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If Trump is running, there are other good options.[.QUOTE]
Trump or no Trump there are other good options.
Consider 2020. It took ALL those opposed to Trump to defeat him. A few more choosing a non--Democratic option, and Trump would now be president.
Which is why I think we should dump both big parties. If you are a Democrat, pair with a Republican to ditch your parties together. Those two big parties will be the death of democracy and we are all enslaved to those killer parties. Ditch 'em both.

I didn't vote for Trump and thus I got Biden, who I didn't want either. Whose fault is that? All the Democrats. Not me.
 
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Vylo

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There are more choices than Democrat, Republican, or not voting.
I mean if you count voting republican or democrat, then drinking large quantities of alcohol to drown out the pain as a third option, sure.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Personally I wouldn't support a party that attempted a violent insurrection, that tried to invalidate the election process, that put pressure on allies to announce investigations into political opponents. If I were an American and I liked Republican policies and hated Democrat policies I would either refuse to vote or I'd pick a third party.
But that is me. I wouldn't go so far as to accuse all Republican voters of supporting the insurrection. But I would wonder about people that continue to vote for Trump in the primaries.
But hey, I understand that there are huge mis-information campaigns over there and huge wedge issues. I actually struggle to see how USA can continue as a collective of 50 states, maybe one day you guys will separate, like what happened to USSR.

Did they get upset when the Republican Senators voted against a bipartisan investigation?

I would have to think that the 79% who said an investigation was important weren't too happy with them... and I know that for certain republican lawmakers, their approval rates dipped (even among people in their own party)

And the GOP (as a whole) took a pretty good sized dip in approval rating after the Jan 6th (and the subsequent refusal of some lawmakers to call it for what it was)

upload_2021-6-22_19-30-55.png


upload_2021-6-22_19-32-33.png


Obviously, that doesn't mean that they'd never vote republican again, but it made them mad enough that they at least showed an act of defiance. But once everything cools off again, it's possible they may switch back depending on what kind of democratic candidates are out there for 2022 and 2024.

A pro-deregulation, anti-universal healthcare, pro-gun person...no matter how mad they were about how the GOP handled the Jan 6 situation, is still unlikely to vote for a "squad"-type Democrat, and would likely quietly go back to the GOP.
 
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stevil

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But once everything cools off again, it's possible they may switch back depending on what kind of democratic candidates are out there for 2022 and 2024.
I don't think it matters what Democrat party candidates are put forth.
USA has dirty politics, it's a feature of your system.

Right wing media and Republican candidates are going to use relentless smear campaigning. Calling them "Radical Socialists" etc, and Right wing media are going to go to the elevens to hype up fear of the Democrats (they'll take your guns, they want socialism, they are suppressing religious rights, they are cancelling your rights to free speech etc) and also to downplay the insurrection, and to blame Fauci and the Chinese not Trump for the poor pandemic response.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I don't think it matters what Democrat party candidates are put forth.
USA has dirty politics, it's a feature of your system.

Right wing media and Republican candidates are going to use relentless smear campaigning. Calling them "Radical Socialists" etc, and Right wing media are going to go to the elevens to hype up fear of the Democrats (they'll take your guns, they want socialism, they are suppressing religious rights, they are cancelling your rights to free speech etc) and also to downplay the insurrection, and to blame Fauci and the Chinese not Trump for the poor pandemic response.

That's why democrats like James Clyburn and Abigail Spanberger were so frustrated with certain democrats' own use of the word "socialism", as they're basically playing into the republicans' hand when they use that type of misplaced/inaccurate lingo to describe their own policies.

Many people on the farther end of the left side of the spectrum (particularly younger people) have incorrectly tried to use the word "socialism" as a way to describe "What Denmark has"

...since they've never lived it (by it's true definition), I think there are some blind spots there. You find just about any immigrant (or first-generation descendent of...) who grew up in places like Cuba, China, or Venzeuala...or that lived in any of the eastern bloc countries in the 70's or 80's... that word elicits a very different emotional response from them...and that very economic system could've been the driver behind their decision to pack up and leave their home country.

Immigrant Neighborhoods Shifted Red as the Country Chose Blue

NY Times did an interesting piece (with an interactive map) on it showing where neighborhoods in major cities (in blue states) had some stark shifts from blue to red over the past few years in areas with large immigrant populations - specifically immigrant neighborhoods with large Latino, Chinese, and Eastern European populations.

In Latino areas: "Mr. Trump received 45 percent more votes in these areas than four years ago. Mr. Biden still won, but the number of people who voted Democratic did not increase over 2016."

"In a belt of suburbs north of Chicago — precincts that are home to South Asian, Arab and Eastern European immigrants — there was also higher turnout, and a shift to Mr. Trump."

"In Chinatown, Mr. Trump’s vote increased by 34 percent over 2016, while Mr. Biden received 6 percent fewer votes than Hillary Clinton. Mr. Biden still won in precincts with a majority of residents of Asian descent, but the Democratic margin of victory fell 12 percentage points."



With the Latino community, it's a bit of a political riddle (as the article puts it). Because depending on the country they moved here from, they may have a very negative reaction to "socialism" (places like Cuba & Venezuela), but if you have an immigrant from Chile (who had to live under a far-right dictator like Pinochet), or someone from central America (where "free-market solutions" ended up equating to "allow US interests to come in and buy up your companies, and then price gouge you for your own resources"), then those folks are going to have a more negative response to some of the republican economic rhetoric.

However, I don't know that same dichotomy exists with regards to immigrants from Eastern Europe for a certain age group.

For instance, I think you'd be hard pressed to find an immigrant who lived in East Germany or Romania in 1980-1986 that has a positive view of the word "socialism"


That's one reason why I've made the suggestion to many on the farther end of the left to be more clear about what it is they want so that they don't just feed political ammo to the far right. Obviously I don't agree with their positions on several issues, but some of them I'd like to see happen (like universal healthcare)

Unless they're actually calling for a centrally planned economy with public sector size > 70% (with compulsory employment in the public sector), then they shouldn't be calling their plan "socialism" or "democratic socialism", etc...

If they want a market economy with an expanded welfare state (like Denmark has, and is very different from socialism), then they should be referring to their plan by the rightful name of "The Nordic Model" or "Nordic Capitalism".
 
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stevil

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That's one reason why I've made the suggestion to many on the farther end of the left to be more clear about what it is they want so that they don't just feed political ammo to the far right.
It's a really difficult challenge in this day and age. The "sound bite" age. Where people are too busy to take the time to read long documents or explainations.

Short sound bites was Trump's thing. And it suited his audience. It's also what Right wing media excels at.

IMO
Quite frankly the right are far better at the "war of words" than the left are. The right, very quickly jump on a label and define it in a succinct way and mis-characterise it in a way that instils fear and shock in their audience.
They then label Democrats as "radical socialists" and then "socialist" becomes a dirty word. You can't then get Democrats or left wing people trying to educate people about what form of "socialist" it is that they support. Many peeps on the right won't listen, won't believe, don't have the time or motivation to try to understand.
They aren't interested in long explanations, they aren't interested in nuances, and they have a massive distrust of anyone supporting the left or the left definition of words or terms. They just parrot or think about the sound bites that they often hear "radical socialist", "take away your guns", "Russian hoax", "Dirty Dossier" etc

You don't get these labels happening in MSM (aka non right wing media) or on left wing media (I don't think so), the left don't play that game and so they lose.
 
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