Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

No

Cormack said:

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

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Which version of universalism?

We cannot improve on God's program.
How would Universalism help "more" humans fulfill their earthly objective and would it not keep more from fulfilling their earthly objective?

bling said:

We cannot improve on God's program.
How would Universalism help "more" humans fulfill their earthly objective and would it not keep more from fulfilling their earthly objective?

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first define universalism (because there are many versions of it) then a discussion can be productive around it.

Michael Collum said:

first define universalism (because there are many versions of it) then a discussion can be productive around it.

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All versions are not scriptual.

Cormack said:

What’s commonly referred to as Christian universalism. Everyone eventually saved and the whole of creation reconciled through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All paths don’t lead to God, but all will someday be upon the one right path.

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I don't have any thoughts on that particular one.

I have looked into the lake of fire being redemptive, but the end of that study lead to understand that ages and ages of torment separate sin from soul, but also destroys the personality hanging onto the sin.

So it kind of ended up having a crossroads between Eternal torment and two popular heresies.

Not sure what I wish, I prefer that the God presented in the sermon on the mount is the true personality of God, and not a facade just to coax rebellious children.

Some people like to think the strict and deadly version of God is the true personality, and their understanding of the judgment proceeds accordingly. However, since there are three persons in the trinity each being God, and all judgment was entrusted to the Son - it would be reasonable to read into the event where God says "Behold I am making all things new," immediately after the judgment is over.

There is reason for optimism, but I'm not God - it's really up to Him.

If Universalism was true then the words of Jesus would be switched around where it says...

Matthew 7:13-14 [13], Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many (Universalism = few to none) are they that enter in thereby. [14], For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few (Universalism = many to all) are they that find it.

I am sure all would prefer to live in known unrepentant sin and still be saved yet this idea is not biblical and a doctrine of the devils (Hebrews 10:26-31; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-9).

If you truly understand infinite time vs finite time you will realize that if you compare the two essentially finite time compared to infinite time is.... NO time at all. When it takes an hour to do something and you only live a day it is a lot of time but when you live 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years it is essentially an instant or a blink in time... nothing. And infinite time means you keep adding infinite zeroes to the years above. In a math equation there is a number called 0.9 with a bar over the nine which means 0.9999999 and the nines are never ending. Now you would think this doesn't equal 1.0, but it can be proven to equal it. This is finite punishment vs infinite time not being punished taking the 1 off the end of a neverending sequence of 9s after 0.9.

Cormack said:

Like always I appreciate your contribution to the topic, @LovesGodsWord, and true to your name you’ve made the topic about Gods word. If you read my reply to @bling you’ll notice I’m not asking for an interpretation of scripture and I’m not asking whether or not you believe universalism to be true.

I’m asking a more personal question about your preference for the world and all of its creatures, in addition to asking why you prefer the answer you have picked.

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Hello Cormack, nice to see you and thanks for the friendly reply. I think I posted that Universalism would be the preferred view of most because the carnal mind loves sin and hates righteousness and is why we need to be born again of the Spirit of God through faith and die daily to temptation. For me I see in the scriptures though that I do not want to prefer this way as Jesus died for my sins and purchased them with His own blood and so I wish to give them all to him who loved me and washed me in His own blood so that I can receive God's forgiveness. I love him and want to honor him as the good news of God's salvation is from sin to walk in His Spirit. Jesus did not die so that we are now free to continue in known unrepentant sin. This of course is the doctrine of devils. My confidence is not in what I can do but what He can do in me who I trust will work in me to will and to do of His own good pleasure as I believe and follow His Word. Before therefore I preferred my ways and now I prefer God's way which is the narrow path that the light of His Word shines to light the way when the road is dark and narrow.

God bless

In general the question is asking would you prefer that every one be saved?

I would actually prefer to see all of the lost saved, even if I don't understand how God did it.

Michael Collum said:

In general the question is asking would you prefer that every one be saved?

I would actually prefer to see all of the lost saved, even if I don't understand how God did it.

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I wish that everyone could be saved. I believe God would prefer if all are saved as well according to the scriptures in 2 Peter 3:9 but according to Gods Word not all will be saved (e.g. Matthew 7:13-14 as posted earlier). God gives us all free will however to choose to believe and follow His Word or not. God's salvation is conditional according to the scriptures on believing and following what his Word says.

Cormack said:

It’s not a topic about whether or not universalism is scriptural, it’s about whether or not you would prefer the whole of creation to someday be reconciled to God and to live in right standing with Him.

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Scripture gives us God’s plain, so if it is not in God’s plan (which cannot be improved on) then it would not be good for us.

Cormack said:

Could you be more specific here?

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Adam and Eve were made “very good” by God’s standard of “very good”, which I would say: “The best two made beings could be made.” Christ is perfect, but Christ is not a made being but deity, so God cannot make clones of a perfect Christ.

Adam and Eve lacked one very important attribute which could keep them from sinning, but that attribute is something even God cannot gift them, because it has to be humbly accepted of their own free will (with real alternatives), let me explain:

Unfortunately, sin has purpose and appears to be needed for all mature adults (which Adam and Eve showed themselves and us) to help those who are willing to fulfill their earthly objective. The objective drives everything.

Starting with God is Love (the epitome of Love), which means God is totally unselfish and is not doing stuff for His own sake, but is doing everything for the sake of man, which is also God’s desire and might be referred to as His sake.

God would be doing or allowing everything to help humans who are just willing to accept His help to fulfill their earthly objective.

So, God allows evil to happen to help humans, but God also allowed Christ to go to the cross to help humans.

There is really nothing you (a created being) can “do” to help the Creator, but you can allow, of your own free will, God to help you, which is God’s desire, since God is a huge giver of gifts.

You can take any command given in scripture and have Biblical support for calling it “Man’s objective since God said this is what man is to do, but there is one (more like two) commands all other commands are under.

Man’s objective is found in the God given Mission statement of: Loving God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy. In order to fulfill that mission man must first obtain Godly type Love which will make man like God Himself in that man will Love like God Loves. Would becoming like God Himself not be the greatest gift we could get?

The objective is not to never ever sin, but to obtain this Godly type Love is the first of man’s objective.

The Adam and Eve story helps us understand. Most people go through a time in which they ask: “How could a Loving God allow such a thing”, which means “why does God not start us all out in a Garden type situation without, needy people, limited resources, death, and questions about His existence?”

What we can do is thank Adam and Eve for showing us and them that what we might consider the ideal situation is a lousy situation for man to fulfill his earthly objective. Adam and Eve as our very best all human representatives did not fulfill the objective while sinless in the Garden and really could not. The situation after sinning outside the Garden did provide a way to fulfill the objective.

There are just somethings even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like God cannot make another Christ since Christ is not a created being. The big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans on earth those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burdens them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant (this includes hell), so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and grow Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.

I and it seems other have to have opportunities at our doorstep to respond with Love, if I would just cease the opportunities at some distance there might be fewer opportunities (tragedies) needed for me, so if you want to blame someone for all these tragedies blame me for not ceasing more earlier.

Hell does nothing for the people going to hell, but that was their choice since they kept refusing to accept God’s help (forgiveness, Love, grace, mercy, charity) to the point they will never humbly accept. Hell does help some willing individuals to not put off their acceptance of God’s help.

We are not making some honorable choice to accept God’s forgiveness, since sin burdens us and we just want undeserved relief from our pain and burden.

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary, but not desired.

Cormack said:

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

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I am afraid I would need clarification of what you mean by the phrase "universal reconciliation of all things". Are you suggesting that there will come a time when a piece of cardboard will be reconciled to a bar of soap and to the planet Mars and to Andrew Jackson etc. etc. etc. until all things are reconciled to each other? I doubt that could be the case but maybe it is what you mean. I find the phrase confusing in its vagueness. .

bling said:

Scripture gives us God’s plain, so if it is not in God’s plan (which cannot be improved on) then it would not be good for us.

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God's implemented plan is that Society is being redeemed by the Atonement of Christ's blood and the power of the Holy Spirit via the Church. Christ's Church is carrying out God's plan for bringing the reconciliation of the Cross to all nations and we cannot fail (Matthew 16:18-19):

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as God did beseech you by us

So we can see that at this time God is reconciling all the world unto himself, per His Plan to do so.

God's plan is for us to love and focus on the world Jesus loves (John 3:16-17) and rules over (Revelation 1:5; Matthew 28:18)--the world he gave to his followers (Romans 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 3:22).

Jesus loves the world and reconciled it unto Him. That's the Plan.
We are to love the Plan Jesus loves.