Clizby WampusCat

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Because the bible is not the manifesto you want it to be.

I believe that men had real experiences with God and documented their experiences as they understood them.
Does God, in your opinion, think slavery is moral or immoral?
 
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RDKirk

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Does God, in your opinion, think slavery is moral or immoral?

We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. -- 1 Timothy 1

Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you, although if you can gain your freedom, do so....do not become slaves of human beings. 1 Corinthians 7

Something else people who want to make the bible a manifesto don't grasp: Fixing the empires of men is not the mission given to the Church.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. -- 1 Timothy 1

Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you, although if you can gain your freedom, do so....do not become slaves of human beings. 1 Corinthians 7

Something else people who want to make the bible a manifesto don't grasp: Fixing the empires of men is not the mission given to the Church.
I see. You won't answer the question.

Thanks
 
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RDKirk

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I see. You won't answer the question.

Thanks

Well, if scripture explicitly says that slaver traders is against God's law (along with murder and other such) and instructs Christians not to become slaves (that would be debt slavery), isn't that an answer?

Yes, I think God considers slavery to be immoral.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Well, if scripture explicitly says that slaver traders is against God's law (along with murder and other such) and instructs Christians not to become slaves (that would be debt slavery), isn't that an answer?

Yes, I think God considers slavery to be immoral.
Thank you.
 
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Ed1wolf

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ed:Irrespective of the semantics, the bible does not condone American style slavery. The Bible only condones voluntary slavery except for POWs and criminals as I demonstrated on another thread a week or two ago that I believe you were involved in for a short time.

cw: I don't care if it condones American type slavery or not. That is not my argument. It supports owning others as property forever.
No, not if they lived to the year of Jubilee, ALL slaves were freed in that year. Of course, they could voluntarily go back into slavery if they wanted to.

ed: I dont claim to be an expert on hebrew but I have read books by experts on hebrew and that is one of the basic facts of hebrew.

cw: No matter what you call them they are owned as property for life and can be inherited as property. This is immoral.
Fraid not, if you survived to the Year of Jubilee. And also they were not considered property because if you murdered a slave you would be executed just like if you murdered a free man. Because they beleived that all humans free or slave were created in the image of God.

cw: Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Lev 25:44-46.
Almost all translations use the word slave in verse 46. But either way all translations say they are property for life and can be inherited as property. No mention of POW's or criminals etc.
You are taking this verse out of context, from other multiple verses like Exodus 21:16 we know that it cant be involuntary so, the verse means that "your male and female voluntary slaves are to come from the nations around you." The hebrews had to treat strangers and foreigners just like fellow hebrews, see Exodus 22:21-24. So obviously enslaving someone involuntarily is oppressing them. So they used the same process as shown in Leviticus 25:47.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Since Romans 13:1-2 says that God chooses our leaders. Can Christians change God's will by voting? If not, why should they vote?

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
Christians are moved by the Holy Spirit to will and to act in accordance with God's will to the extent of the knowledge, wisdom and discernment God has given each. Thus their vote will reflect the collective wisdom of the Body of Christ...the body of true believers in a voting nation although they may not represent a majority of that nation. We exercise our vote both prayerfully and dutifully knowing only God's will and purposes will be carried out in the end. There are times of great trial and tribulations under unwise governance but we aim for perfection. Trials and tribulations which come to us serve God's purposes too...they strengthen faith, hope and love.
Romans 5:2-5:
2 Through him we also have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice confidently on the basis of our hope for the glory of God.
3 Not only this, but we also rejoice confidently in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces patient endurance, 4 and patient endurance produces tested character, and tested character produces hope. 5 And hope will not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, who was given to us.
So, we vote.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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No, not if they lived to the year of Jubilee, ALL slaves were freed in that year. Of course, they could voluntarily go back into slavery if they wanted to.
No, the bible does not say that. It says some are slaves forever. However, even if I grant that they is the case, they are still slaves that cannot leave if they want to. That is immoral.


Fraid not, if you survived to the Year of Jubilee. And also they were not considered property because if you murdered a slave you would be executed just like if you murdered a free man. Because they beleived that all humans free or slave were created in the image of God.
The Bible says they are property.


You are taking this verse out of context, from other multiple verses like Exodus 21:16 we know that it cant be involuntary so, the verse means that "your male and female voluntary slaves are to come from the nations around you." The hebrews had to treat strangers and foreigners just like fellow hebrews, see Exodus 22:21-24. So obviously enslaving someone involuntarily is oppressing them. So they used the same process as shown in Leviticus 25:47.
Ok, so you can just insert your own words into the bible. The bible is clear there are different rules for different people types. There are different rules for males, females, Hebrews non Hebrews etc. Even if you disagree with this the fact is there were slaves and God never said to knock that off He actually condoned it by writing regulations for it.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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We exercise our vote both prayerfully and dutifully knowing only God's will and purposes will be carried out in the end.
If no Christian voted at all in an election, would God's choice still win?
 
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throughfiierytrial

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If no Christian voted at all in an election, would God's choice still win?
Yes, God's will always prevails. But God answers prayer and if we show no inclination to seek godly rule which leads to the ability to lead peaceful, godly lives where there is a means to do so...voting...then we may well be disciplined by God.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Scripture presumes Christians have no say in the selection of the emperor anyway.
However, Apostle Paul used his rights as a citizen of Rome and had those rights defended to advance the Gospel and to glorify God...we use the earthly tools God grants us along with the spiritual (the Word).
 
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RDKirk

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However, Apostle Paul used his rights as a citizen of Rome and had those rights defended to advance the Gospel and to glorify God...we use the earthly tools God grants us along with the spiritual (the Word).

That has nothing to do with Christians (or Paul) having any say in the selection of the emperor.

Moreover, Paul only asserted that right in the specific situations of having been placed before Roman law (such as at Philippi, which was a rare Roman colonia that was populated by Roman citizens instead of Greeks). Other than maneuvering those specific situations before a Roman court, we do not see Paul using his Roman citizenship or even speaking of it.

I can't recall that he ever mentioned his Roman citizenship in any of his epistles. Only Luke mentions it, and there is a theory that Luke wrote his gospel and Acts specifically as "legal depositions" in Paul's behalf, again for a Roman court.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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That has nothing to do with Christians (or Paul) having any say in the selection of the emperor.

Moreover, Paul only asserted that right in the specific situations of having been placed before Roman law (such as at Philippi, which was a rare Roman colonia that was populated by Roman citizens instead of Greeks). Other than maneuvering those specific situations before a Roman court, we do not see Paul using his Roman citizenship or even speaking of it.

I can't recall that he ever mentioned his Roman citizenship in any of his epistles. Only Luke mentions it, and there is a theory that Luke wrote his gospel and Acts specifically as "legal depositions" in Paul's behalf, again for a Roman court.
I disagree that one cannot extrapolate from this instance that one uses his worldly goods and position to advance the Gospel in our various ways using all our spiritual and worldly talents. Jesus, seems to me says the something with the same spiritual truth where He says use your money to buy friends and similarly Apostle Paul says credit your heavenly account with your money (paraphrase). Jesus ssys store up in heaven.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Yes, God's will always prevails. But God answers prayer and if we show no inclination to seek godly rule which leads to the ability to lead peaceful, godly lives where there is a means to do so...voting...then we may well be disciplined by God.
Ok
 
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throughfiierytrial

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That has nothing to do with Christians (or Paul) having any say in the selection of the emperor.

Moreover, Paul only asserted that right in the specific situations of having been placed before Roman law (such as at Philippi, which was a rare Roman colonia that was populated by Roman citizens instead of Greeks). Other than maneuvering those specific situations before a Roman court, we do not see Paul using his Roman citizenship or even speaking of it.

I can't recall that he ever mentioned his Roman citizenship in any of his epistles. Only Luke mentions it, and there is a theory that Luke wrote his gospel and Acts specifically as "legal depositions" in Paul's behalf, again for a Roman court.
I believe that Luke clearly spells out his purposes in writing Gospel of Luke and Acts...no need to dig out more there.
You and I are at loggerheads on the issue of using one's worldly rights and belongings to advance the Gospel of Christ and we can leave it at that. Jesus many times points to this in his instructions...
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed: No, not if they lived to the year of Jubilee, ALL slaves were freed in that year. Of course, they could voluntarily go back into slavery if they wanted to.

cw: No, the bible does not say that. It says some are slaves forever. However, even if I grant that they is the case, they are still slaves that cannot leave if they want to. That is immoral.
Some slaves are slaves forever because many will die before the year of Jubilee. But actually if your master treated you badly, then you can go to a sanctuary city and he cannot come after you. So your slavery would end. This is very different from American slavery.

ed: Exodus 21:16 we know that it cant be involuntary so, the verse means that "your male and female voluntary slaves are to come from the nations around you." The hebrews had to treat strangers and foreigners just like fellow hebrews, see Exodus 22:21-24. So obviously enslaving someone involuntarily is oppressing them. So they used the same process as shown in Leviticus 25:47.

cw: Ok, so you can just insert your own words into the bible.
I didnt do that, I just clarified what it means in context.

cw: The bible is clear there are different rules for different people types. There are different rules for males, females, Hebrews non Hebrews etc. Even if you disagree with this the fact is there were slaves and God never said to knock that off He actually condoned it by writing regulations for it.
Since there was no social security or welfare in ancient times, voluntarily selling your self and family actually saved many lives in ancient Israel during times of economic stress. That is why God did not ban it completely. Though it is certainly not His ideal as seen in His freeing the slaves from Egypt. It is actually more like indentured servitude and in fact that is how the Puritans interpreted in early America.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Some slaves are slaves forever because many will die before the year of Jubilee. But actually if your master treated you badly, then you can go to a sanctuary city and he cannot come after you. So your slavery would end. This is very different from American slavery.
Why do you guys always bring American slavery into this? And no, that is not what the bible says. Read Lev 25:44-46. The fact is even if they were treated the very best they are still slaves and owned as property by other people and God allowed for that.

Since there was no social security or welfare in ancient times, voluntarily selling your self and family actually saved many lives in ancient Israel during times of economic stress. That is why God did not ban it completely.
Why could God not have provided for His people without allowing for an immoral system to take care of them?

Though it is certainly not His ideal as seen in His freeing the slaves from Egypt. It is actually more like indentured servitude and in fact that is how the Puritans interpreted in early America.
Nope, please read your bible. There were slaves taken against their will and slaves forever. Read Lev 25:44-46.

But can you please respond to my assertion that even if the slaves were treated well does not mean that people owning people as property is moral.
 
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