Baptism and babies

prodromos

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Both are households, but in the US anyway, ones with infants under 3 are only a little over 6% of the total. A more accurate assumption is there are not infants in the average household.
So when Scripture refers to households it does not exclude those with infants. You are imposing your own beliefs on your interpretation of the passage.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Pot, meet kettle.

no, we have 2000 years of consistent witness. plus, no one is giving personal interpretation, as the Orthodox Church is clear concerning baptism.

no pots, no kettles
 
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buzuxi02

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From another commentary:

"As long as he is a child - Until he arrives at the age. The word rendered "child" (νήπιοι nēpioi) properly means an infant; literally, "one not speaking" (νη nē insep. un, ἔπος epos), and hence, a child or babe, but without any definite limitation - Robinson. It is used as the word "infant" is with us in law, to denote "a minor." In human affairs the condition of a minor is antecedent to the enjoyment of the liberty and the civil rights which accrue to him on coming of age. He is a son and an heir, but during minority his position is that of a slave."

So you agree here we have atleast one example in scripture where it clearly teaches baptism before the age of "accountability" clearly calling the "heir" an infant. And in the original Greek it is clear no need for mental gymnastics even mentioning the Greco- Roman system of education where the wealthy would hire tutors (usually slaves or freedmen) from the age of toddler to about 10 years old.

This verse has INTENTIONALLY been mistranslated, no where does it speak of child which would have used the word teknon as it is elsewhere. But ending chapter 3 at verse 27 itself is a manipulation to disguise what is obviously being said.
There is no need for mental gymnastics when any native Greek speaker knows exactly what is being implied for millenia.

It doesn't say there were infants. I don't have infants in my house, do you?
Paul already includes everyone in the household. Paul never said, "all your adult household", nor did he ever say, "all your household except the kids"...
Before Paul ever asked the jail keeper whether he even had a family or whether it constituted children he made clear it will save his entire household full stop. Paul didnt care if he had babies or only adults. He made clear it's for his household:

Acts 16:30- And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.

In the case of Lydia's household there isn't even a mention of any prerequisites for the household to follow:

Acts 16: 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.
Nowhere does scripture create a false dichotomy between young and old. In the near east the entire household takes direction from the head and households include the children not just the adult relatives and slaves under the roof.
It's even brought home in 1Corinthians:

10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
You think they left the babies and women behind??? That the word "all our fathers" was meant to excluded everyone except for the adult male Hebrews?
 
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East of Eden

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So you agree here we have atleast one example in scripture where it clearly teaches baptism before the age of "accountability" clearly calling the "heir" an infant.

Infant = minor, not an adult, see my prior post.

And in the original Greek it is clear no need for mental gymnastics even mentioning the Greco- Roman system of education where the wealthy would hire tutors (usually slaves or freedmen) from the age of toddler to about 10 years old.

This verse has INTENTIONALLY been mistranslated,

Amazing how you can read other's minds like that.

no where does it speak of child which would have used the word teknon as it is elsewhere. But ending chapter 3 at verse 27 itself is a manipulation to disguise what is obviously being said.
There is no need for mental gymnastics when any native Greek speaker knows exactly what is being implied for millenia.


Paul already includes everyone in the household. Paul never said, "all your adult household", nor did he ever say, "all your household except the kids"...
Before Paul ever asked the jail keeper whether he even had a family or whether it constituted children he made clear it will save his entire household full stop. Paul didnt care if he had babies or only adults. He made clear it's for his household:

Acts 16:30- And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.

Exactly, and an infant can't believe or disbelieve. He also didn't say anything about baptism, neither does John 3:16.

In the case of Lydia's household there isn't even a mention of any prerequisites for the household to follow:

Acts 16: 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.

In the case of Lydia, in Acts 16, her heart was opened in response to hearing the gospel and she believed and those who heard with her in her house believed. There are no children mentioned. In fact, there’s no husband mentioned, and if there’s no husband mentioned, very possibly she didn’t have any children.

Nowhere does scripture create a false dichotomy between young and old. In the near east the entire household takes direction from the head and households include the children not just the adult relatives and slaves under the roof.
It's even brought home in 1Corinthians:

In the Stephanus household of 1 Corinthians, it says all who were baptized were devoted to the ministry of the saints. Compare that and the fifteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians. They were all helping in the spiritual work of the church, 1 Corinthians 1:16. They were baptized. They were devoted to the ministry of the saints, they were helping in the spiritual work of the church; therefore, they weren’t infants.

10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
You think they left the babies and women behind??? That the word "all our fathers" was meant to excluded everyone except for the adult male Hebrews?

If you want to compare today's infant baptism with the OT covenant, remember that only applied to male children, and circumcision didn't convey redemption, it was a sign of redemption. If you want to call infant baptism a sign, OK, but it does not in itself make a person born again, and is a reversal of the NT pattern of conversion, then baptism.

BTW, I say this as someone who had both his children baptized as infants, which I now regret. I'm sorry I denied them the experience of baptism.

Question: The Bible says we should be generous with our money towards the Lord's work, and that that is a fruit for which we may be rewarded in heaven. If you gave an infant money, and then gave that money to the church, would he/she get credit in heaven?
 
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GodLovesCats

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I was taught that it's because we've inherited the consequences of Ancestral Sin from Adam and Eve through birth, and baptism washes it away.

So to be clear we're not guilty for what they did, but we suffer the consequences.

To wash sin away, you have to be dunked in the Name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Infant baptism is just getting some hair wet for all the baby knows. For me infant baptism is just a long tradition
 
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buzuxi02

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Infant = minor, not an adult, see my prior post.

I'm a native Greek speaker that is not how the word is used. While a baby is certainly a minor, your hoping it's vague enough to include a youth over a certain age.
Nepios is used plenty of times in the bible. The term minor for nepios in biblical texts still refers to one who is too young to be able to speak or too young to speak for himself and whose decisions are made by his parents. Once again this makes your argument that Gal 4:2 means an "older, child" that can give consent nonsensical.

The actual word for minor in Greek is anhelikos (ανήλικα) literally meaning 'not of age'. Thus Gal 4.2 is clear that nepios is one who is not of age and cannot speak for himself. We even see an example in John 9:20 where the opposite of "minor" is used which is (ηλικία) "of age".

Trust me my guy don't travel to Greece or Cyprus and try to say Gal 4:2 means an 8 year old.
 
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buzuxi02

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botez-atena.jpg botez-IN1.jpg
To wash sin away, you have to be dunked in the Name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Infant baptism is just getting some hair wet for all the baby knows. For me infant baptism is just a long tradition

Babies are fully dunked three times in Orthodoxy. To be baptised into the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit means three seperate immersions.
 
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prodromos

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And the RCC for many centuries has had a consistent witness that priests must not marry, what does that prove?
Not consistent. They originally had married priests and still do in the non-Latin rites
 
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ArmyMatt

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And the RCC for many centuries has had a consistent witness that priests must not marry, what does that prove?

they actually haven't. not only do you have the early Church where they DID marry, but even today the Eastern Rite has married priests and married Anglican clergy and such who are accepted into Rome can stay married.

so, that's not consistent.

plus, to answer your question. since the Orthodox have 2000 years of witness, which was not something you asserted, the proverbial pot wasn't calling the kettle black.
 
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ArmyMatt

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To wash sin away, you have to be dunked in the Name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Infant baptism is just getting some hair wet for all the baby knows. For me infant baptism is just a long tradition

yes, we do triple, full immersions. sprinkling is only allowed when there isn't enough water to dunk (which, nowadays is extremely rare).
 
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GodLovesCats

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Babies are fully dunked three times in Orthodoxy. To be baptised into the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit means three seperate immersions.

How do they make sure water does not go up the baby's nose?

I held my nose to avoid that when pastors dunked me. Babies can't do that.
 
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ArmyMatt

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How do they make sure water does not go up the baby's nose?

I held my nose to avoid that when pastors dunked me. Babies can't do that.

babies instinctively know how to hold their breath. they don't need to hold their nose. plus, the immersions don't last long. it's not like they are held under there.
 
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GodLovesCats

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This is one thing I absolutely don't get about some western Christians: it seems to make the infant and the child into something less than full-fledged members of the Church. They're either in or they're not, right? It's very odd.

Baptists do what they call a "baby dedication" - parents line up at the front with their children and one by one, the pastor blesses them. The parents pledge to raise their children into Christ and teach him/her the Gospel. They do this because baptism is symbolic. It represents death and resurrection. This is what I like because being baptized as a baby did me no good as it took 20 years to become a Christian.
 
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Light of the East

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To wash sin away, you have to be dunked in the Name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Infant baptism is just getting some hair wet for all the baby knows. For me infant baptism is just a long tradition

I refer you back to my post on the Covenant of God. Yes, infant baptism is a long HOLY TRADITION which goes back to the beginning of the Christian faith. If you read the writings of the early believers and the Fathers of the Church, there are instructions on how to baptize infant children. This isn't something that the Orthodox Church just pulled out of thin air centuries after Christ left the earth.

And FYI - perhaps you should go to YouTube and search out an Orthodox infant baptism and watch it. The baby is immersed in the baptismal font, which, as you mentioned, is the correct manner of baptism rather than the sprinkling that the Roman Catholic Church has come up with.

**EDIT** Hahaha....should have read the rest of the thread. Several people beat me to this, but I'll leave it up to add my voice to the chorus.
 
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Light of the East

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And the RCC for many centuries has had a consistent witness that priests must not marry, what does that prove?

It proves that they left the apostolic faith.
 
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Justin-H.S.

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And the RCC for many centuries has had a consistent witness that priests must not marry, what does that prove?

No, they don't. Celibate priests is an innovation of the Middle Ages.
 
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East of Eden

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I refer you back to my post on the Covenant of God. Yes, infant baptism is a long HOLY TRADITION which goes back to the beginning of the Christian faith. If you read the writings of the early believers and the Fathers of the Church, there are instructions on how to baptize infant children. This isn't something that the Orthodox Church just pulled out of thin air centuries after Christ left the earth.

And FYI - perhaps you should go to YouTube and search out an Orthodox infant baptism and watch it. The baby is immersed in the baptismal font, which, as you mentioned, is the correct manner of baptism rather than the sprinkling that the Roman Catholic Church has come up with.

This is child abuse.

Russian Priest In Hot Water Over Violent Baptism
 
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