Catholic House Democrats prepare to send bishops 'statement of principles' on Communion vote

Should Catholic politicians who support abortion be denied communion?

  • Yes

    Votes: 14 56.0%
  • No

    Votes: 11 44.0%

  • Total voters
    25

JimR-OCDS

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On Henry VIII, the Lord works in mysterious ways. It wasn't just about divorce, there was a lot of Reformation sentiment around.

But Henry VIII separated from the Catholic Church over not getting an annulment.

He in fact ordered the closure and confiscation of monasteries.
He in fact, arrested clergy who refused to sign an oath declaring
him as head of the Church of England.


A 9/11? Absolutely.

You wouldn't have knowledge of this, so the torture could be on an innocent person.

Besides, it has been known by intelligence, that the use of torture gives more false results than
true ones.

An aborted baby suffers much more pain and distress than a waterboarded Jihadist.

True, but it depends on how old the fetus is.

I don't remember being born, nor other medical procedures done to me
at the time of my birth.

Do you ?

I'm in no way supporting abortion, just pointing out the flaws in your argument.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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I think I've heard about this. The operation does not require direct termination of the fetus like an abortion but more or less removes it from the womb causing it to die right?

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

It's tragic (sorry for your loss Parousia) but understandable.

Similar, but I'm not a doctor.

But yes, if the pregnancy was terminated to save the life of the mother, without "directly" killing the embryo or fetus, it is licit in the eyes of the Church.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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How is the situation different? There is here a conflict between the secular and the spiritual and whether or not the two can interact with each other. Why should Ambrose have felt himself at liberty to interfere with the matters of the state when he should be concerned with spiritual affairs?

What is the justification for Theodosius and the unjustification for Biden?

Because US government wasn't even a thought in Ambrose's time.

Writing and passing of legislation in the US Congress is far more complex than just declaring
the will of a king.
 
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civilwarbuff

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I mean, it could be accomplished... If one were to admit they're politically Libertarian, but personally Catholic.

...But when you say your faith guides your policy decisions on immigration, spending or some other issue, but not on abortion, it does cause a problem, IMO.
I don't see how our faith (or convictions for those non-believers) cannot guide policy decisions......unless a person has true split personality.......
 
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civilwarbuff

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Question to the ideological bishops: If this is the best Biden can be with the help of frequent Mass and sacraments and rosaries, aren't you a little scared about what he'll do without them?
Why?......it seems as though he has already disregarded them........
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Because US government wasn't even a thought in Ambrose's time.

Writing and passing of legislation in the US Congress is far more complex than just declaring
the will of a king.

Why does that mean it's a radically different situation? Why should Biden be immune from the consequences of his policies but Theodosius shouldn't be? Can the Church not speak out against secular democracies?
 
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Hank77

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I do think that conservative Catholics were disappointed that Coney Barrett and Roberts didn't rule that the Catholic Charities Philadelphia case meant that the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, Hobby Lobby, Chick Fil A, and My Pillow could stop serving gays. Not sure if they were disappointed in Kavanaugh. I would not put him in the same category, personally, but others might.
What about Gorsuch?
 
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chevyontheriver

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Before any Catholic can receive communion, we are compelled to recite, out loud, "I am not worthy to receive you".

So the Bishops telling Catholic Politicians "you are not worthy to receive" seems a bit redundant...
Except when that same afternoon they vote for abortion. Saying 'I am not worthy' implies a firm purpose of amendment, a conversion to abandon sin. If the Catholic politician decides to give up support for abortion, great. If that Catholic politician fails to do that, visibly fails in a recorded vote, their words 'I am not worthy' are a simple sham.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Are you asserting the termination of the ectopic pregnancy was immoral?

Or do you allow for some wiggle room in your "abortion is immoral" stance?

Would you say she was morally Justified to obtain that termination?

Would she have been just as morally Justified to refuse to have that pregnancy terminated, when she knew doing so would kill both her and the baby?

(Full Disclosure: my stance is that she would have been morally justified to make EITHER of those polar opposite choices, but they were hers to make, not the State's)
You are trying to trick him with this. The very same Catholic Church which is against abortion does allow for the double effect removal of diseased tissue even if the baby dies as an unintended result of needed medical treatment. She would have been justified to accept or refuse this treatment. Sorry for your losses.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Was that the treasonous ones working for the Spanish?




Would you waterboard someone to prevent a 9/11? Torture is what aborted babies endure, with the approval of your party.
Just how was Thomas More treasonous?
 
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Fantine

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You have yet to say whether you approve of abortion. You've been asked but so far you have declined to respond.

I am opposed to an abortion and believe that addressing the social and financial causes of abortion is the most effective way to minimize it (given that criminalization won't end abortion, either.)

I realize that "some" pro-lifers might get some emotional gratification from punishing what they cavalierly refer to as "murder." I also realize that most pro-lifers are good people and that those who talk about "baby killers" hurt their cause.

I think Catholic Democrats are badly needed to remind the Church about the hundreds of other issues that get short shrift. I call them the "orphan issues," like the "orphan diseases." Every bishop talks about them and has agencies that effectively deal with perhaps 5% of problems that only government has the funds and clout to eradicate.

They are sort of hostage issues, to be undealt with until the "ransom" of criminalizing abortion is paid.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I am opposed to an abortion and believe that addressing the social and financial causes of abortion is the most effective way to minimize it (given that criminalization won't end abortion, either.)

I realize that "some" pro-lifers might get some emotional gratification from punishing what they cavalierly refer to as "murder." I also realize that most pro-lifers are good people and that those who talk about "baby killers" hurt their cause.

I think Catholic Democrats are badly needed to remind the Church about the hundreds of other issues that get short shrift. I call them the "orphan issues," like the "orphan diseases." Every bishop talks about them and has agencies that effectively deal with perhaps 5% of problems that only government has the funds and clout to eradicate.

They are sort of hostage issues, to be undealt with until the "ransom" of criminalizing abortion is paid.

By opening access to abortion and encouraging it as a social cure for someone's sexual folly, you do nothing to limit the extent of abortion. If you believed the criminalization wouldn't work why do you advocate it in other areas? Back ally abortions might occur but they would not be anywhere near the numbers of legal abortions committed today with the blessing of the US government.

Your approach is ineffective and instead of taking meaningful steps to actually limit abortion (like law and or social pressure), you only pave the way to it's complete acceptance within society by liberalizing the laws and social attitudes and encouraging it being paid for by the tax payer.

Biden could come out today and say abortion is a grave moral travesty. But he and the rest of the Catholic Democrats in high office will never do that. He will say it's a private matter and leave it at that. In refusing to entertain the idea that a Catholic politician should be held to account by his spiritual betters you in the end do nothing to actually discourage abortion. Only defend the current trajectory. A trajectory which will end in social normalization and legitimization.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Why does that mean it's a radically different situation? Why should Biden be immune from the consequences of his policies but Theodosius shouldn't be? Can the Church not speak out against secular democracies?

Because Theodosius directly ordered the slaughter of 7000 people.

Biden doesn't order abortions for anyone, but does allow it as he doesn't write laws, Congress does.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Just how was Thomas More treasonous?
Obviously he should have submitted to his King first instead of the Church.

I guess that is the implication. I do wonder about the Catholics defending Biden in this thread. Would they be willing to defend More without appearing hypocritical?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Because Theodosius directly ordered the slaughter of 7000 people.

Biden doesn't order abortions for anyone, but does allow it as he doesn't write laws, Congress does.

Biden is advocating for more abortion and for it to be funded by the tax payer. How is he not responsible if he manages to get this policy through? A policy which will result in more aborted children and not less.

But why does the action of what Theodosius warrant the Church getting involved? Death is occurring in both cases but it is in the purview of the secular authorities, not divine authorities? To distinguish between the two and argue Ambrose was right and the USCCB is wrong makes little sense to me.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I am opposed to an abortion and believe that addressing the social and financial causes of abortion is the most effective way to minimize it (given that criminalization won't end abortion, either.)

I realize that "some" pro-lifers might get some emotional gratification from punishing what they cavalierly refer to as "murder." I also realize that most pro-lifers are good people and that those who talk about "baby killers" hurt their cause.

I think Catholic Democrats are badly needed to remind the Church about the hundreds of other issues that get short shrift. I call them the "orphan issues," like the "orphan diseases." Every bishop talks about them and has agencies that effectively deal with perhaps 5% of problems that only government has the funds and clout to eradicate.

They are sort of hostage issues, to be undealt with until the "ransom" of criminalizing abortion is paid.
Don't you think that if you could be counted as pro-life, you and dozens of similar people to yourself, we might actually get beyond abortion? Instead this nation is going further in wanting abortion codified into Federal law. Democrats used to say 'safe, legal, and rare'. They dropped the 'rare' part in their rhetoric and now 'shout their abortions'.

We had a lot of politicians in this country in 1858 that thought as you think but about slavery. They were opposed. But not very much. Stephen Douglas was one of those. The Civil War was tragic but the failure to solve the tragedy of slavery made that war necessary. And I remind you that the Democrats were the party of slavery, and they wanted to put off the reckoning on slavery as long as they could. They would compromise and waffle. I'm sure they called the abolitionists good people who hurt their cause. It's all very similar. And until we end the killing of innocent human beings we march on to a debacle as a nation, one it doesn't take much prescience to see.

Can you get beyond the politics of it all and tell your friends and neighbors you are solidly against abortion? Then can you figure out that your favorite politicians voting for abortion is inconsistent with your being solidly against abortion? And then can you tell your politicians that? They don't listen to me. I don't count. My bishop doesn't count. My religion doesn't count. But those politicians are your friends. Have you told them that you are against abortion? Or do they count you as a solid supporter in advancing their cause to make abortion even easier.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Obviously he should have submitted to his King first instead of the Church.

I guess that is the implication. I do wonder about the Catholics defending Biden in this thread. Would they be willing to defend More without appearing hypocritical?
I think they would be shouting for the execution of Thomas More and bishop Fisher as well. Shame on More for daring to even demur from speaking against the king but refusing to sign an oath. Shame on Fisher for remaining a real Catholic. First the House Catholic Democrats tell the bishops to shut up. Tomorrow they go a step further. Then 'off with their heads'.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Biden is advocating for more abortion and for it to be funded by the tax payer. How is he not responsible if he manages to get this policy through? A policy which will result in more aborted children and not less.

But why does the action of what Theodosius warrant the Church getting involved? Death is occurring in both cases but it is in the purview of the secular authorities, not divine authorities? To distinguish between the two and argue Ambrose was right and the USCCB is wrong makes little sense to me.

Because Theodosius made Christianity the religion of Rome.

What he ordered was direct murder.

Now, should Biden be barred from receiving Holy Communion ? That's up to the Bishops, but I have had a problem with Biden dropping his support for the Hyde Amendment just when he decided to run for president. He's come out more strongly in support of keeping abortion legal since then.

In fact, he has stated he wants to make Roe V Wade locked into federal law.

So, yeah I have problems with Biden's claim to be a Catholic.

But again, it will be up to the Bishops, not me.
 
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