Catholic House Democrats prepare to send bishops 'statement of principles' on Communion vote

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 22, 2021

Fantine said:
Supporting candidates who are pro-choice does not mean that one is pro-abortion.

Last November, the choice was between Biden and an incumbent who is under criminal investigation in several jurisdictions, who is heavily indebted in the tune of half a billion dollars to financial institutions both here and overseas, and who is still contesting an election he lost by 8 million votes and tried to incite an insurrection over.

You think he was against abortion? ROFL. Read "The Art of the Deal," a quick read thanks to the ghostwriter who continually warns the U.S. against voting for Trump.

It was just a "deal" for him. And to get the deal you sacrificed the poor, the hungry, the homeless, refugees in Syria and elsewhere, immigrant adults and children, the dreamers, the 6 million Americans who got COVID because of government inaction and reopening and unmasking too quickly, Puerto Ricans who suffered without clean water and electricity while he threw paper towels at them....for starters.

He would have even sacrificed people my age for the economy, with his surrogate in Texas and an unqualified medical doctor telling us we should risk our lives for their stock profits!

We made not only the best choice, but the only choice possible. We saved our democracy...for now.

You're welcome.

Is abortion immoral Fantine?

JimR-OCDS · Jun 22, 2021

East of Eden said:
In Islamic societies, it is very difficult to distinguish between civilians and soldiers, they aren't exactly abiding by the Geneva Conventions. Islamic militants are often embedded in a wider circle of sympathetic civilians.

What gets me is Obama opposed waterboarding, which is a glorified bath, while drone killing entire wedding parties.

As I recall, the wedding party in Afghanistan that was killed, was done under Bush, not Obama. Celebrating by shooting AK-47s in the air was a common way of celebrating by Afghan males. US Helicopters mistook them for hostiles and open fire on them.

Obama opposed water boarding as other means of torture that were used. So is the Catholic Church opposed to torture. So did I oppose it !

Under Bush, prisoners at GITMO, were sent to black sites so they could be tortured their way.

Also, when the US offered to pay $500 for info on whereabouts the Taliban were, some Taliban troops who looked no different than civilians, pointed the US troops toward villages and told them they were Taliban. The US troops then raided the village and arrested every male, including teens as young as 15 years of age and as old as 80. They were sent to GITMO and their families didn't know were they were. They were there for almost 2 years and were tortured via water boarding, placed naked in a cold cell and suffered sleep deprivation.

Bush/Cheney were a black eye to the moral credibility of the United States.

East of Eden · Jun 22, 2021

Fantine said:
Supporting candidates who are pro-choice does not mean that one is pro-abortion.

Huh?

Last November, the choice was between Biden and an incumbent who is under criminal investigation in several jurisdictions,

Politically motivated, as was the Russia Hoax. It was a Deep State coup attempt.

who is heavily indebted in the tune of half a billion dollars to financial institutions both here and overseas, and who is still contesting an election he lost by 8 million votes and tried to incite an insurrection over.

LOL, was it an insurrection when tens of thousands protested Trump's election? It was an insurrection when BLM/Antifa, the military arm of your party just like the KKK used to be, injured or killed 2,000 cops in riots last summer, did over $100M in damage, and actually set up an autonomous zone in OR.

You think he was against abortion?

Yes, are you?

ROFL. Read "The Art of the Deal," a quick read thanks to the ghostwriter who continually warns the U.S. against voting for Trump.

Whatever the motivation, he was the most pro-life POTUS we've had, it is the opposite for the current bunch.

It was just a "deal" for him. And to get the deal many who define "pro-life" in very narrow terms sacrificed the poor, the hungry, the homeless, refugees in Syria and elsewhere, immigrant adults and children, the dreamers, the 6 million Americans who got COVID because of government inaction and reopening and unmasking too quickly, Puerto Ricans who suffered without clean water and electricity while he threw paper towels at them....for starters.

Are you aware minorities had the lowest unemployment in history under Trump? COVID is a global pandemic, was the Spanish Flue Pres. Wilson's fault? Had Biden been POTUS we would have had millions more cases, Trump banned China travel before there was one US casualty, over Biden's objections. Biden has literally done nothing his whole life, other than show up for the cameras and vote in the Senate.

We made not only the best choice, but the only choice possible. We saved our democracy...for now.

You're welcome.

Make America Weak Again, I guess. Doesn't bother me, I'm only visiting this planet.

East of Eden · Jun 22, 2021

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Is abortion immoral Fantine?

Crickets

East of Eden · Jun 22, 2021

JimR-OCDS said:
So is the Catholic Church opposed to torture.

Must be something new, your church has tortured a whole lot of people over the centuries.

Under Bush, prisoners at GITMO, were sent to black sites so they could be tortured their way.

You mean enhanced interrogation? It's how we got Bin Laden.

Also, when the US offered to pay $500 for info on whereabouts the Taliban were, some Taliban troops who looked no different than civilians, pointed the US troops toward villages and told them they were Taliban. The US troops then raided the village and arrested every male, including teens as young as 15 years of age and as old as 80. They were sent to GITMO and their families didn't know were they were. They were there for almost 2 years and were tortured via water boarding, placed naked in a cold cell and suffered sleep deprivation.

Poor babies.

Bush/Cheney were a black eye to the moral credibility of the United States.

Certainly true of the current admin.

JimR-OCDS · Jun 22, 2021

East of Eden said:
Must be something new, your church has tortured a whole lot of people over the centuries.

Yeah, so didn't most of society approve torture and burning at the stake.

We don't now, so try to catch up instead of condemning the past.

Oh and BTW, the Pope issued a Papal Bull limiting the amount of torture that could be used in those days.

King Henry VIII didn't follow those rules when he hung priest til near death, then disemboweled them

You mean enhanced interrogation? It's how we got Bin Laden.

That's what Cheney defined it as, it was still torture, especially at the black sites
prisoners were sent to.

Poor babies.

Pauperem infantem as perhaps the guards said to Christ when they tortured him too, eh ?

chevyontheriver · Jun 22, 2021

Fantine said:
Supporting candidates who are pro-choice does not mean that one is pro-abortion.

You have yet to say whether you approve of abortion. You've been asked but so far you have declined to respond. An oversight on your part perhaps?

Last November, the choice was between Biden and an incumbent who ....

It seems all partisan political to you. Does the faith come a distant second?

We made not only the best choice, but the only choice possible. We saved our democracy...for now.

We made a choice between two bad candidates. Not sure the worst or the second worst won. And we have not saved democracy. We'll be lucky not to see this whole experiment in ordered democracy go up in flames before the summer is out. And I suspect your political friends will do some church burning before it's September.

Joe Biden is the most pro-abortion president ever, eclipsing even president Obama. That was no easy feat but he's done it. And you don't seem to have raised a whisper in opposition to your guy. Not a whisper. Not even to ask him to reconsider on where he has deviated from the Catholic faith. Can you raise the tiniest whisper? Or would that be the political endorsement of Trump? Who isn't a Catholic and at least knows not to march up and take communion in a Catholic church.

East of Eden · Jun 22, 2021

JimR-OCDS said:
King Henry VIII didn't follow those rules when he hung priest til near death, then disemboweled them

Was that the treasonous ones working for the Spanish?

That's what Cheney defined it as, it was still torture, especially at the black sites
prisoners were sent to.

Would you waterboard someone to prevent a 9/11? Torture is what aborted babies endure, with the approval of your party.

parousia70 · Jun 22, 2021

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Is abortion immoral?

My Catholic Wife had 6 pregnancies.
3 resulted in live births.
2 were miscarriages
One was ectopic and required termination to save her life. (There are 88,000 of these/ year in the US)

Are you asserting the termination of the ectopic pregnancy was immoral?

Or do you allow for some wiggle room in your "abortion is immoral" stance?

Would you say she was morally Justified to obtain that termination?

Would she have been just as morally Justified to refuse to have that pregnancy terminated, when she knew doing so would kill both her and the baby?

(Full Disclosure: my stance is that she would have been morally justified to make EITHER of those polar opposite choices, but they were hers to make, not the State's)

Do you want Government deciding which choice was the more moral choice and therefore the one she would be required by law to make, or would you trust her to make it for herself?
(full disclosure: I trusted my wife)

If it were you, or your wife, would you prefer you/she make the choice yourselves, or would you prefer the nanny state compel you one way or the other by force of law?

Is it moral for one human being to compel another to give over their internal organs for the others use?

Is it morally wrong for you to refuse to give me your kidney if I need one and we are a match?
Should you be lawfully compelled to give me your kidney?

What type of beings are baby humans in utero that they cease to be once Born?
Are they not still the same being entitled to the same rights?
Why do babies lose the right to require the use of the Mothers organs the moment they are Born?

If its morally (and legally) justified for a mother to refuse to give her child one of her Kidneys, or part of her liver, AFTER the Child is born, why is it not morally justified for the mother to refuse to allow the child the use of those organs while in utero?

Why should a Child Lose that right to compel the use of the mothers organs the instant it is Born?
Is it moral for society to strip away those rights from that child the moment that child is born?

Does a Human being lose a portion of its moral value once it starts breathing?

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Did Adam as a human being have a greater Moral Value before or after he started breathing?

JimR-OCDS · Jun 22, 2021

East of Eden said:
Was that the treasonous ones working for the Spanish?

No, it was the priest who refused to sign an oath to King Henry VIII making him head of the Church of England.

Would you waterboard someone to prevent a 9/11? Torture is what aborted babies endure, with the approval of your party.

Would you torture a person you suspect is gonna commit a crime ?

Interesting how you include abortion with torture.

FYI, I don't support any political party for they'll only let you down.

parousia70 · Jun 22, 2021

Before any Catholic can receive communion, we are compelled to recite, out loud, "I am not worthy to receive you".

So the Bishops telling Catholic Politicians "you are not worthy to receive" seems a bit redundant...

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 22, 2021

parousia70 said:
My Catholic Wife had 6 pregnancies.
3 resulted in live births.
2 were miscarriages
One was ectopic and required termination to save her life. (There are 88,000 of these/ year in the US)

Are you asserting the termination of the ectopic pregnancy was immoral?

Or do you allow for some wiggle room in your "abortion is immoral" stance?

Would you say she was morally Justified to obtain that termination?

Would she have been just as morally Justified to refuse to have that pregnancy terminated, when she knew doing so would kill both her and the baby?

(Full Disclosure: my stance is that she would have been morally justified to make EITHER of those polar opposite choices)

Do you want Government deciding which choice was the more moral choice and therefore the one she would be required by law to make, or would you trust her to make it for herself?
(full disclosure: I trusted my wife)

If it were you, or your wife, would you prefer you/she make the choice yourselves, or would you prefer the nanny state compel you one way or the other by force of law?

Is it moral for one human being to compel another to give over their internal organs for the others use?

Is it morally wrong for you to refuse to give me your kidney if I need one and we are a match?
Should you be lawfully compelled to give me your kidney?

What type of beings are baby humans in utero that they cease to be once Born?
Are they not still the same being entitled to the same rights?
Why do babies lose the right to require the use of the Mothers organs the moment they are Born?

If its morally (and legally) justified for a mother to refuse to give her child one of her Kidneys, or part of her liver, AFTER the Child is born, why is it not morally justified for the mother to refuse to allow the child the use of those organs while in utero?

Why does a Child Lose that right to compel the use of the mothers organs the instant it is Born?
Is it moral for society to strip away those rights from that child the moment that child is born?

Does the Human life lose a portion of its moral value once it starts breathing?

Well I suppose where we differ in our viewpoints is that I don't believe we are merely individuals. God didn't create us to be apart from each other and nor can that ever be the standard. Having accepted that the individual is not the most important thing I do believe the Mother has no right to abandon her child, that the child requires to be raised and that this is for the good of society. If this makes the Mother feel bad, then perhaps she should have chosen to abstain from sex.

But regarding Ectopic abortion. Fine. Let's grant that babies with that rare abnormality can be aborted. Will you be willing to do anything to limit the idea of convenience abortion? Preventing women who simply don't want a child from aborting? I suspect not and thus I don't think you have any sincere opposition to abortion or it's practice, since you seem to want to support Biden removing the Hyde amendment and expand access to it without any discrimination.

Well?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 22, 2021

parousia70 said:
Before any Catholic can receive communion, we are compelled to recite, out loud, "I am not worthy to receive you".

So the Bishops telling Catholic Politicians "you are not worthy to receive" seems a bit redundant...

Was Saint Ambrose wrong to bar Emperor Theodosius from communion then?

JimR-OCDS · Jun 22, 2021

parousia70 said:
Before any Catholic can receive communion, we are compelled to recite, out loud, "I am not worthy to receive you".

So the Bishops telling Catholic Politicians "you are not worthy to receive" seems a bit redundant...

Not anymore, it's now:

"Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof"

Then finish it,

"but only say the word and I shall be healed."

East of Eden · Jun 22, 2021

JimR-OCDS said:
No, it was the priest who refused to sign an oath to King Henry VIII making him head of the Church of England.

On Henry VIII, the Lord works in mysterious ways. It wasn't just about divorce, there was a lot of Reformation sentiment around.

Would you torture a person you suspect is gonna commit a crime ?

A 9/11? Absolutely.

Interesting how you include abortion with torture.

An aborted baby suffers much more pain and distress than a waterboarded Jihadist.

FYI, I don't support any political party for they'll only let you down.

Can't argue with that.

JimR-OCDS · Jun 22, 2021

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Well I suppose where we differ in our viewpoints is that I don't believe we are merely individuals. God didn't create us to be apart from each other and nor can that ever be the standard. Having accepted that the individual is not the most important thing I do believe the Mother has no right to abandon her child, that the child requires to be raised and that this is for the good of society. If this makes the Mother feel bad, then perhaps she should have chosen to abstain from sex.

But regarding Ectopic abortion. Fine. Let's grant that babies with that rare abnormality can be aborted. Will you be willing to do anything to limit the idea of convenience abortion? Preventing women who simply don't want a child from aborting? I suspect not and thus I don't think you have any sincere opposition to abortion or it's practice, since you seem to want to support Biden removing the Hyde amendment and expand access to it without any discrimination.

Well?

An Ectopic pregnancy would require an "indirect abortion," which is licit in the Catholic Church.

"Direct Abortions," are intrinsically evil.

There is a difference between the two.

East of Eden · Jun 22, 2021

parousia70 said:
My Catholic Wife had 6 pregnancies.
3 resulted in live births.
2 were miscarriages
One was ectopic and required termination to save her life. (There are 88,000 of these/ year in the US)

Are you asserting the termination of the ectopic pregnancy was immoral?

Or do you allow for some wiggle room in your "abortion is immoral" stance?

Would you say she was morally Justified to obtain that termination?

Would she have been just as morally Justified to refuse to have that pregnancy terminated, when she knew doing so would kill both her and the baby?

This country has some of the most extreme abortion laws in the world, down there with China and North Korea.

(Full Disclosure: my stance is that she would have been morally justified to make EITHER of those polar opposite choices, but they were hers to make, not the State's)

Do you want Government deciding which choice was the more moral choice and therefore the one she would be required by law to make, or would you trust her to make it for herself?
(full disclosure: I trusted my wife)

If it were you, or your wife, would you prefer you/she make the choice yourselves, or would you prefer the nanny state compel you one way or the other by force of law?

Is it moral for one human being to compel another to give over their internal organs for the others use?

Is it morally wrong for you to refuse to give me your kidney if I need one and we are a match?
Should you be lawfully compelled to give me your kidney?

What type of beings are baby humans in utero that they cease to be once Born?
Are they not still the same being entitled to the same rights?
Why do babies lose the right to require the use of the Mothers organs the moment they are Born?

If its morally (and legally) justified for a mother to refuse to give her child one of her Kidneys, or part of her liver, AFTER the Child is born, why is it not morally justified for the mother to refuse to allow the child the use of those organs while in utero?

Why should a Child Lose that right to compel the use of the mothers organs the instant it is Born?
Is it moral for society to strip away those rights from that child the moment that child is born?

Does a Human being lose a portion of its moral value once it starts breathing?

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Did Adam as a human being have a greater Moral Value before or after he started breathing?

You didn't answer the question, but let's set aside for a minute ectopic pregnancies, and abortion in the cases of rape or incest. What about the other 98% of abortions?

JimR-OCDS · Jun 22, 2021

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Was Saint Ambrose wrong to bar Emperor Theodosius from communion then?

Different situation and time and the Church has evolved since then.

The Bishops do have the obligation in telling a person who consistently opposes Church doctrine,
not to receive Holy Communion.

But when it comes to politicians in the US Congress who have to vote on legislation which does not
directly support abortion, we'll soon learn what the Bishops and the Pope come up with.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 22, 2021

JimR-OCDS said:
An Ectopic pregnancy would require an "indirect abortion," which is licit in the Catholic Church.

"Direct Abortions," are intrinsically evil.

There is a difference between the two.

I think I've heard about this. The operation does not require direct termination of the fetus like an abortion but more or less removes it from the womb causing it to die right?

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

It's tragic (sorry for your loss Parousia) but understandable.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 22, 2021

JimR-OCDS said:
Different situation and time and the Church has evolved since then.

The Bishops do have the obligation in telling a person who consistently opposes Church doctrine,
not to receive Holy Communion.

But when it comes to politicians in the US Congress who have to vote on legislation which does not
directly support abortion, we'll soon learn what the Bishops and the Pope come up with.

How is the situation different? There is here a conflict between the secular and the spiritual and whether or not the two can interact with each other. Why should Ambrose have felt himself at liberty to interfere with the matters of the state when he should be concerned with spiritual affairs?

What is the justification for Theodosius and the unjustification for Biden?

Catholic House Democrats prepare to send bishops 'statement of principles' on Communion vote

Should Catholic politicians who support abortion be denied communion?

Yes

No

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