Why The Flesh Cannot Enter The Kingdom

ViaCrucis

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He is not denying the bodily resurrection here.

He is simply answering your questions.

What do you think about his point with the use of scripture?

Because He said, point blank, that Jesus doesn't have the same body that was crucified. Jesus didn't cease to have flesh and bone--His body--when He rose. His flesh and bones, His body, was resurrected, glorified, transformed. In the same way our bodies, at the resurrection, will be transformed.

The problem is in thinking in Gnostic or quasi-Gnostic duality between spirit and bodily matter.

Christ did not go from being bodily matter to immaterial spirit. That isn't what Paul means when he speaks of the resurrected body as "spiritual". That simply isn't what the adjective pneumatikos means; in the same way that the adjective psuchekos ("soulish") does not mean that the present body is comprised of some sort of "stuff" called "soul". "Soulish" and "Spiritual" describe not material composition of the body, but what kind of "power" is at work in the body.

That is why I have always maintained that if we want to understand what Paul means by "Spiritual body" we should be looking to Romans chapter 8, noting verse 11, "If the Spirit of Him who raised Christ from the dead dwells also in you, then He who raised Christ from the dead will likewise give life to your mortal bodies." That is resurrection, the Holy Spirit quickening the mortal body, so that it is no longer mortal, but immortal, no longer perishable, but imperishable.

The resurrection does not render the body less solid, but more solid; not less human, but more human; not less part of God's created world, but more a part of it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GallagherM

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I am not sure if you are listening to him correctly though or listening to him by assuming notions however.

Regardless of what anyone says it is important to go and Check scriptures out and see God has to say about the matters.

I agree with you about dying with Christ and being raised with Christ - that is a showing of baptism in His death, and being raised again to new spiritual life. Resurrection of the new born again believer in Christ Jesus raised again to newness of life. (Galatians 2:20) (Romans 6:3-7)

That doesn't answer any of my questions posed to you however friend.
 
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GallagherM

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According to Apostle Paul, our Lord Jesus flesh body was made "a quickening spirit". So just at what stage during His resurrection was that transfiguration from His flesh body to His quickened spirit body, you be the judge.

1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV


Some think it happened at the time He ascended to Heaven in Acts 1. I don't know. God knows.

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, 'I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God.'
KJV


That still doesn't explain our resurrection, but only Christ's, because our flesh won't be transfigured like His, as it is plain to see people's flesh decays in the casket buried per Ecclesiastes 12:5-7.

1 Cor.15:44
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


Paul actually gives more info in that above verse about something that is sown to a natural body (flesh), and then is raised to a spiritual body. He is showing that "It" is something independent from either body type. I have to assume he is pointing to our mortal soul being sown into a natural body at birth, and then 'it' is raised as spiritual body at death, per Eccl.12:5-7. Afterall, Paul defined our makeup God created us as having spirit, soul, and body (flesh) while alive on earth (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Thank you for your time creating this for people to read. I find that I lean towards the belief in what is explained in 1 Corinthians 15 by Apostle Paul who was a disciple of Christ Jesus by the will of God - tells us about the resurrection of the spiritual body that imperishble.

I personally do not desire this body anymore though my soul; and my spiritual body lives inside of it (And that fine for the moment I can still share Christ Jesus :ebil: ). I believe as we walk this earth we build our spiritual bodies up inside of us that lies in the heart of our desires of whether or not we walk by the spirit or we walk by the flesh.

I believe if we sow and reap to the spirit and long for God - the reward that God will give us is that of a spiritual body that is given to God that is fit enough to dwell in the light of the kingdom of heaven.

While unbelievers have a loss though being resurrected the same way and placed outside the kingdom of heaven, they given a spiritual body but without reaping to the spirit they have forfeit a loss because of that which was a made choice while on earth.

Thank you again for taking time to explain a little more I am still confused about it myself sometimes especially when it comes to this understanding.
 
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GallagherM

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In Romans 6-8 I am reminded of Paul explaining that He lives inside of two bodies one being the natural side, and one being of the spiritual. @ViaCrucis

There is also the scriptures in Galatians that talk about the spirit and the flesh war against each other. And that the flesh is an enemy of anything that has to deal with the spiritual side of things IE (Faith).
 
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ViaCrucis

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I believe that Jesus Christ rose again; and was seen by the apostles, and touched, and witness by 500 hundred others.

I am kind of still confused about Jesus Christ to and what happened to Him.

I do know the scripture does say 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Why is it that Paul makes these distinction even being as an Apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God?

That Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; Is Apostle Paul lying here? Is what He saying not true at all? Might as well throw out the whole bible.

@ViaCrucis

I believe in the Gospel of Christ but I also would like to know more about what Happened to Jesus because it is confusing sometimes when it comes to the Ascension of Christ Jesus and also that 1 Corinthians does talk about going on to obtain spiritual bodies and I do not know what that is like but I also do believe Jesus Christ came, died, and was risen again from the dead in the body He lived in.

It is just confusing and I can honestly admit that.

@Davy you did a good job explaining what you do know by using scriptures thank you for that I do apperciate it.

The trouble usually happens when we try to imagine a "three-deckered universe" with heaven above, the earth below, and that other "place" even further below.

Let's consider the Tabernacle and the Temple of old, the Holy of Holies, the Mercy Seat atop the Ark of the Covenant, etc, all spoke of God's Divine Presence on earth. When the high priest stepped behind the veil into the Holy of Holies, it was as though the priest had passed through the veil into heaven. That is why the language the author of the Hebrews uses to speak of Christ as our Great High Priest is to speak of Him having entered the inner sanctuary making atonement with His own blood.

The Ascension is, in this sense, a High Priestly entrance into the Heavenly Sanctuary. Not as though there is some celestial temple somewhere out there in the unyielding depths of the universe; but because heaven and earth really are not that far apart at all. Indeed, what does Paul say when quoting the Greek poets, "He is not very far from each of us". Indeed time and again we are reminded throughout Scripture of God's immediacy, "Where can I go to flee from Your presence?" asks the Psalmist.

Our Lord's Ascension, His going away, was not to leave us nor forsake us, as He says, "I am with you always, even until the end of the age." We know from elsewhere that He speaks of the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, who was given on Pentecost, through which Christ and His Father are present with us and in us. But it is also important to understand that the Ascension is not Jesus going from one physical location to another.

It is noteworthy, for example, that a visual description of the Ascension only occurs in Luke-Acts, and we see described the very thing which Daniel beheld in his vision, the Son of Man taken up on the clouds before the Ancient of Days given dominion, all authority, and everlasting kingdom. Elsewhere the fingerprints of the Ascension are clearly there, but do not receive explicit mention. I very much doubt that if one asked the Apostles what happened to Jesus they would say that He is no located somewhere outside of the stratosphere up in outer space (not least of course because such language and thinking about the world was unknown to them).

Rather, the Ascension is Jesus taking the reigns of the kingdom, for "Heaven must keep Him until the restoration of all things" as St. Peter says in Acts chapter 3. And likewise St. Paul tells us that we have a "citizenship in heaven" in Philippians 3, likewise we are told in Ephesians ch. 2 that we are, already even, seated with Christ in heavenly places.

King Jesus the Messiah is in charge, "All power and authority in heaven and on earth has been given unto Me" He says in Matthew 28, just before charging to His Church the commission to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit".

We should also see what the Apostle says in Colossians, that Christ "fills all things". This language of "filling all things" seems very bizarre when thinking of Christ's physical body. Which is why it has often been common in the Reformed Protestant tradition to insist that Christ is bodily constrained but spiritually present everywhere. This is in distinction to the Lutheran view: Christ is, even in His very real, very physical (and very glorified!), very human body, everywhere present. So when we confess that Christ is really, truly, bodily present in, with, and under the bread and wine of the Eucharist, we aren't just using pretty metaphors--Jesus really is there, that bread and wine is literally Jesus.

How this can be is total mystery. But when we loose the shackles of our preconceptions about what the universe is supposed to look like, and see what Scripture is saying, we are seeing in the Ascension not a description of Jesus zipping away from the world and all its problems. Rather we are seeing Jesus, the Risen and Victorious Lord, as King Messiah, taking the throne that was promised to David so long ago, not over a temporal kingdom; but the eternal kingdom of God. The kingdom of God which is inaugurated in Christ, into which Christ has called us as disciples and servants, by being born anew of God by Baptism--through which we are joined to and share in His death, burial, and resurrection to newness of life--being nourished by His Table, the Eucharist. And now, calling us, in our vocations as Christians in the world, to be the salt and light of the world.

The kingdom, as our Lord Himself declared, was at hand--and He was not joking. For this kingdom "does not come with observation" because the kingdom is found in the authority of its King--who was there in the midst of sinners, tax-collectors, prostitutes, lepers, and hypocrites--eating, drinking, calling, loving, serving. So we are living in the tension of the now-and-not-yet kingdom: It is now, by the grace and promise of God which is ours in Christ; and it is yet when Christ returns in the end and God sets all things to rights, new heavens and new earth.

He's the same Jesus that was cradled in Mary's arms and suckled at her breast. That Jesus, that same Jesus, is at the right hand of God the Father, He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. Seated on the throne. And He is preeminent in all things.

So when we look ahead to what God has in store, we look not to the end of all creation, but the renewal of all creation, "Behold! I make all things new!". For St. Paul writes in Romans 8 that all creation groans in futility--the futility of death, and sin, and all the labors of this present, fallen, sinful age. But as it groans, it groans in hopeful expectation of what is to come, when God raises the dead, "the redemption of your bodies".

Heaven is not so far away, it's right next to us. Christ is, as the New Temple of God--and we with Christ built up as that Temple as the Body of Christ--is the center of God's activity in the cosmos. For "all things were made through Him and for Him" as Paul says in Colossians.

I'm not suggesting that this remains anything more than a mystery, or that we can fully understand or properly imagine it. Only that when we are listening to Scripture speak, we hear this: Jesus Christ is Lord. He is Lord from heaven, in heaven, at the right hand of the Father, not as a distant ruler, but as a present and now ruler, He is the Lord, "For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (1 Corinthians 8:6)

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GallagherM

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I wanna stay on topic and not a huge list of things to go through. I am sorry. @ViaCrucis Just talk small and direct and normal that would help me understand.

Ultimately we are talking about the spiritual resurrection at this point; which is spoken out in 1 Corinthians 15; and my question was should we even listen to Paul if what He is saying was not true?
 
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ViaCrucis

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In Romans 6-8 I am reminded of Paul explaining that He lives inside of two bodies one being the natural side, and one being of the spiritual. @ViaCrucis

There is also the scriptures in Galatians that talk about the spirit and the flesh war against each other. And that the flesh is an enemy of anything that has to deal with the spiritual side of things IE (Faith).

I think a closer reading will show that he makes no mention of two bodies, but rather he speaks of the "body of death", by which he means the present mortality of our flesh, through which the power of sin works in our bodily members. Which is precisely why, by virtue of our Baptism, we can present our bodies as living sacrifices to God, no longer as slaves to sin but of God. Earlier the Apostle had spoken of our free justification by the grace of God, and speaks of how the superabundance of grace means that grace is more powerful than our sin. But that grace is not an excuse for sin.

So the Apostle brings us back to our Baptism, to remind us of what God has done to us and for us in Christ, and in light of this what sorts of people we ought to be. In light of our baptism, we present our bodies before God as living sacrifices, to not let sin "reign over our mortal bodies".

In chapter 7, the Apostle will speak of the intensity of this struggle between the old man and the new man. That he is at war with himself in his own mind, that even though in his mind he knows what the Law says to do and that the Law is holy, good, and right; but that he does not do it, and in this way there is a "law of sin" at work in his bodily members, a law that leads unto death. Therefore, "Who can free me from this body of death?"

In chapter 8 the Apostle now looks forward to the resurrection of the body and the renewal of all creation, the hope for which we are saved he says. And so, on account of God's grace, and the promises of God, "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". For we have received the Holy Spirit, the very down payment of our hope, who is our strength in our weakness. For in our groaning (even as the creation itself groans under the futility of its subjugation to death and sin) the Spirit prays on our behalf (verse 26).

It is the grace and power of God, through the power of the Spirit in our lives now, that gives us life in the present. What we have been given by God freely by His grace, as we see looking at our baptism and all God accomplished there fore us, is an indestructible life in Christ. The Holy Spirit Himself makes us alive to God even in our present death-filled mortality; with eyes forward to the day when God will, by the same power of His Spirit, transform our lowly bodies to be like Christ's glorious body (turning to Philippians 3:21). Which is why the Apostle can say that of course he has not attained the resurrection of the dead (as it has not yet happened), and yet is alive to God in the power of the resurrection, Christ's resurrection, which is the firstfruits and the hope and promise of that future resurrection.

The old man and the new man are not two bodies--I only have one body, this one, currently sweating and feeling gross in the summer heat. The body is not bad, it's not to be discarded, God doesn't dispose of that which is good--and all physical matter is good. That is why the whole point of the Bible, from Genesis all the way to the Apocalypse, is about God's love and affirmation of the good creation, and His intent to rescue it from the futility of death and sin.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GallagherM

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The old man and the new man are not two bodies--I only have one body, this one, currently sweating and feeling gross in the summer heat. The body is not bad, it's not to be discarded, God doesn't dispose of that which is good--and all physical matter is good. That is why the whole point of the Bible, from Genesis all the way to the Apocalypse, is about God's love and affirmation of the good creation, and His intent to rescue it from the futility of death and sin.

I have two bodies. One inside of me that is spiritual (my soul that longs for God), and the outer person which is the flesh of my body.
 
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GallagherM

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Though God created humans and called them Good; because of sin; we are no longer any good. According to scripture (Romans 3:10-12) Which indicates no one is good. Which also is an indicator of how much we need the Lord Jesus Christ; who makes us right God because of his righteousness and not our own.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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I have two bodies. One inside of me that is spiritual (my soul that longs for God), and the outer person which is the flesh of my body.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say man has more than one body where did you come up with that idea ?
 
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GallagherM

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1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (NASB1977)

1 Corinthians 15:44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies. (NLT)

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (BSB)


I mean if we do not have two bodies Idk how to take this text. I believe I have a spiritual body that resides in me that longs for God and the spirit but at the same time I live in the fleshly body as well that wars against the spirit.

Galatians 5 talks about the war between the spirit and the flesh.

Unless Paul is wrong; I am going to keep trusting what the Apostle Paul has to say about these things.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I wanna stay on topic and not a huge list of things to go through. I am sorry. @ViaCrucis Just talk small and direct and normal that would help me understand.

Ultimately we are talking about the spiritual resurrection at this point; which is spoken out in 1 Corinthians 15; and my question was should we even listen to Paul if what He is saying was not true?

I would encourage you to go back to 1 Corinthians 15, at no point does the Apostle mention a "spiritual resurrection". He mentions the resurrection of the dead.

Paul uses two words to describe the body, the first word he uses to describe the body in its present condition is psuchekos. This word psuchekos is the adjective form of the word for "soul", that is, psuche (which has passed on into English with the word psyche). English does not have an adjective-form for the word "soul", and so English translators have often used the word "natural" or at times "carnal" to capture what Paul is saying, but unfortunately this has seemingly led to more confusion than it has helped.

This is why you'll notice that a lot of people, myself included, use the word "soulish" to translate psuchekos. Because while "soulish" isn't an ordinary English word, but as a coined word does provide a better translation of the word.

So let's look at what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:44

σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν ἔστιν σῶμα ψυχικόν καὶ ἔστιν σῶμα πνευματικόν
speiretai soma psuchekon egeiretai soma pneumatikon estin soma psuchekon kai estin soma pneumatikon

It [the body] is sown a soulish body, [and it is] raised a Spiritual body; [there] is a soulish body and [there] is as Spiritual body.

So the contrast is not between physical and spiritual; the contrast is between soulish and spiritual.

You will notice also that I usually capitalize the word "Spiritual" here, and I do that on purpose. Because the pneuma in pneumatikos that Paul is talking about is, I am convinced, the Holy Spirit Himself.

It is not that the body ceases to be physical and becomes some kind of immaterial ghost stuff; it's that the body as it is now is governed by the mere animal appetites, the "lusts of the flesh"; we have a life at present which is identified with this fallen age because we are ourselves part of that fallen age. God is going to take our bodies, just as He is going to take this earth, and breathe a new life into creation.

So the "Spiritual body" is the body transformed by God's grace and now fully quickened and made alive by the Holy Spirit. A body of redeemed flesh and redeemed matter.

That is what Paul is talking about here.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (NASB1977)

1 Corinthians 15:44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies. (NLT)

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (BSB)


I mean if we do not have two bodies Idk how to take this text. I believe I have a spiritual body that resides in me that longs for God and the spirit but at the same time I live in the fleshly body as well that wars against the spirit.

Galatians 5 talks about the war between the spirit and the flesh.

Unless Paul is wrong; I am going to keep trusting what the Apostle Paul has to say about these things.
Paul is describing your present body that will be transformed in the future at the Resurrection of the saints.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Though God created humans and called them Good; because of sin; we are no longer any good. According to scripture (Romans 3:10-12) Which indicates no one is good. Which also is an indicator of how much we need the Lord Jesus Christ; who makes us right God because of his righteousness and not our own.

No, being human is a good thing. Nothing God made has ever ceased to be good.

What happened is that the good things of God have become subject to the futility of sin and death, and so our good and God-given humanity has been spoiled by sin.

God became man, to save man and all creation.

God's plan of salvation wasn't to destroy Adam, but to heal and save Adam through the new Adam, Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GallagherM

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You guys can explain whatever you want to me.

I just trust what Paul says about these matters.

He explains even in Romans 7 his struggles between his spirit and the war of his flesh. Then goes on in Romans 8 saying that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus walk after the spirit because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

I believe I have two bodies. One spiritual inside of me that is guided by the holy spirit of Christ in me; and also my Fleshly body.
 
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GallagherM

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@ViaCrucis what bible are you reading friend?

I might as well toss my bible away if it is not true.

Romans 3
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


This is why we need the Lord Jesus Christ - So that we can be restored from spiritual deadness becoming alive again being born and becoming spiritually alive in looking towards God; and looking towards the Lord Jesus Christ and his righteousness. For Christ Jesus righteousness is what makes us right with God.

No amount of trying to good is going to help anyone get closer to God; it is by and through the Lord Jesus Christ we have access to God. In the following of God is apparent we desire to do well when it comes to living and being pleasing to God no doubt, living by the spirit.

To say that as human beings we are all good is a lie however because we have all missed the mark.

God loved the population of everyone in the world He sent his Son. (John 3:15-20) But people loved the darkness more than the light. Jesus Christ sets us free from darkness, the bondage of sin, and allows to have new life by and through the spirit. (though we live in the flesh) a spiritual body is created.

An according to scripture to keep alive the spirit is to read the word of God ; communicate with God and pray; have faith; but if you wanna kill the spirit just dont pay attention to God and live solely for your fleshly desires. (For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.)
 
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ViaCrucis

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I have two bodies. One inside of me that is spiritual (my soul that longs for God), and the outer person which is the flesh of my body.

Why do you believe this?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GallagherM

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This is why.

Romans 7

21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. Romans 7.

For in my inner being (soul) (spiritual body - by being spiritually born again from above) delights in God's law - but there is another law at work in my body -> Flesh fleshly body.

1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (NASB1977)

1 Corinthians 15:44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies. (NLT)

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (BSB)


There is outer body - the natural body
The inner man ( the spiritual body).

The dualistic nature of human beings. We are all born with a soul - mind(heart)/will/emotion. We are also all born spiritually dead until being born again in which we become alive spiritually. That is not the natural part of me but is the inner man part of me that delights in Gods law.

Paul even absolves himself of when his body sins that it is not him it is the sin with-in him. (Romans 7:17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me.)
 
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