John 14:1-3 "I will com again" - post-trib, pre-mill, full Rapture, visible

Jeffwhosoever

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It is time to address the theological holes in your doctrine. Let us see who has corroboration and truth on their side. Frankly: who cares about Occam's Razor! Most of us prefer to let the Bible speak for itself.

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6?

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?
There are no holes in the Scripture as long as its read as written. All the rest above is smoke and mirrors to escape the point that Futurism is the best interpretation of Revelations and no reference to every other book will save can be crafted to counter the inevitable truth that John was being very specific and literal. Referring back to Psalms is really, really weak.
 
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sovereigngrace

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There are no holes in the Scripture as long as its read as written. All the rest above is smoke and mirrors to escape the point that Futurism is the best interpretation of Revelations and no reference to every other book will save can be crafted to counter the inevitable truth that John was being very specific and literal. Referring back to Psalms is really, really weak.

I am a Futurist. What form of Futurism are you talking about? There is a notable lack of biblical support coming forth on your eschatology position in your posts. That speaks volumes. You are also avoiding multiple simple questions. All we are getting is unsubstantiated sweeping partisan statements. It is hard to take these serious without any hard Scripture.

Why even bother when you cannot support your position with the Word of God? All I see in your posts is you criticizing every other position, using links to support your private interpretation and no Scripture. This exposes your position, not reinforces it.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi SG,

It was mentioned that the Lord was the first and only one so far to be resurrected.
The words `first` and `second` refer to the type of resurrection. The resurrection to life and the resurrection to death.

`Jesus said ....Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.` (John 5: 28 & 29)

Acts 26: 23 refers to the Lord.
Col. 1: 18 is also the Lord.
1 Cor. 15: 20 also the Lord.
Rev. 1: 5 again is the Lord.

Rev. 20: 4 - 6 these are those who did not take the mark of the beast and were beheaded for their witness to Jesus and the word of God. (as Jeff has said).

regards, Marilyn

There can only be one first resurrection. Premils invent 2 in order to support their faulty understanding of Revelation 20. Amils are consistent and correct on this.
 
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Timtofly

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Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
This study is figurative. It uses the word thousand in a figurative way to make a figurative point. We do not have to take it as literal.
 
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Timtofly

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There can only be one first resurrection. Premils invent 2 in order to support their faulty understanding of Revelation 20. Amils are consistent and correct on this.
Amil call the first resurrection the first birth, which is not even a resurrection. Any human partaking in the first resurrection has a new permanent incorruptible physical body. The new birth is spiritual giving us the power of the Holy Spirit being in control of our heart, mind, and will. There is only one first resurrection and it is physical. It happens when this corruptible body is left to return to dust. It happened to the OT church in Matthew 27, when Jesus said, "It is finished". They were Christ the firstfruits. We await the resurrection of this body at the Second Coming. Otherwise the soul leaves this current body, for the permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise as part of the firstfruits. The Second Coming is the resurrection of the living, Paul claims as being caught up, and changed in mid air. Unless you think all those who died in the last 1991 years actually came to life at the Cross, even before they were born, there have been millions of first resurrections, along with the one in Matthew 27. If you think God is going to re-animate and change this dead corruptible body, why is there a permanent incorruptible physical body waiting for us in Paradise, made by God, not from biological human parents?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Amil call the first resurrection the first birth, which is not even a resurrection. Any human partaking in the first resurrection has a new permanent incorruptible physical body. The new birth is spiritual giving us the power of the Holy Spirit being in control of our heart, mind, and will. There is only one first resurrection and it is physical. It happens when this corruptible body is left to return to dust. It happened to the OT church in Matthew 27, when Jesus said, "It is finished". They were Christ the firstfruits. We await the resurrection of this body at the Second Coming. Otherwise the soul leaves this current body, for the permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise as part of the firstfruits. The Second Coming is the resurrection of the living, Paul claims as being caught up, and changed in mid air. Unless you think all those who died in the last 1991 years actually came to life at the Cross, even before they were born, there have been millions of first resurrections, along with the one in Matthew 27. If you think God is going to re-animate and change this dead corruptible body, why is there a permanent incorruptible physical body waiting for us in Paradise, made by God, not from biological human parents?

There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).
 
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Timtofly

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There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).
I never denied Christ is the first resurrection.

You deny that we are part of that first resurrection. At the least, you do not confirm you are part of that first resurrection. Are you the one with 2 resurrections?
 
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sovereigngrace

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I never denied Christ is the first resurrection.

You deny that we are part of that first resurrection. At the least, you do not confirm you are part of that first resurrection. Are you the one with 2 resurrections?

Positionally, we have our part in His life, death, resurrection, ascension and glorious reign through regeneration - being "in Christ." This means the lake of fire (the second death) has no claim over us. Our sin was buried with Christ and when He arose we arose. He was our representative. He was our substitute. The company that have their “part” in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6 are all those that are spiritually raised “in Christ” from the grave of their sin.
 
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Timtofly

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Positionally, we have our part in His life, death, resurrection, ascension and glorious reign through regeneration - being "in Christ." This means the lake of fire (the second death) has no claim over us. Our sin was buried with Christ and when He arose we arose. He was our representative. He was our substitute. The company that have their “part” in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6 are all those that are spiritually raised “in Christ” from the grave of their sin.
What is a positional spiritual resurrection? Why not a positional physical resurrection? Do we skip the physical and go directly to the spiritual?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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How could Revelation 20 have occurred when no one has been resurrected yet besides the Lord Jesus?

A literal interpretation of Revelation 20 trumps all symbolic interpretations according to Occam's razor.

Definition of Occam's razor


: a scientific and philosophical rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities

Definition of OCCAM'S RAZOR
I thought you have been studying all the different views of eschatology? Apparently, you have yet to study Amillennialism in any depth or else you would already have an answer to your question. You may not agree, but you'd at least have an answer. But, you're acting as if you're not even aware of how someone might answer the question you asked at the beginning of your post.

Also, please show me where scripture itself teaches that it should be interpreted according to Occam's razor. Do you find that taught here:

1 Corinthians 12:12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi SG,

Yes `a thousand` years can be figurative, however `THE` thousand years, reveals that it is a definite time. The word `THE` refers to a SPECIFIC thing, so no ambiguity there.

Marilyn.
So, using your logic, we can conclude that THE beast with seven heads and ten horns mentioned in the book of Revelation is a literal beast with seven literal heads and ten literal horns?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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There are no holes in the Scripture as long as its read as written.
What does that mean exactly?

Do you interpret the following scripture passage by reading it as written? If so, please tell me how you interpret it.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
 
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Marilyn C

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So, using your logic, we can conclude that THE beast with seven heads and ten horns mentioned in the book of Revelation is a literal beast with seven literal heads and ten literal horns?

.
 
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Marilyn C

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There can only be one first resurrection. Premils invent 2 in order to support their faulty understanding of Revelation 20. Amils are consistent and correct on this.

Hi SG,

God`s word specifically calls the first resurrection, the resurrection to life, for those being judged at the Great White Throne.

See the phrase - `all who are in the grave.`Some will go to `life, and some to `condemnation.` Now there are plenty who will not be in the grave at the great White Throne.

1. The Body of Christ who will be on Christ`s own throne.
2. The OT saints are in the General Assembly awaiting their inheritance.
3. The Great Multitude are also in the General Assembly waiting for their inheritance.
4. The 144,000 are there in the GA also.
5. The martyrs of the trib. will be there in the GA too.

Marilyn.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi SG,

God`s word specifically calls the first resurrection, the resurrection to life, for those being judged at the Great White Throne.

See the phrase - `all who are in the grave.`Some will go to `life, and some to `condemnation.` Now there are plenty who will not be in the grave at the great White Throne.

1. The Body of Christ who will be on Christ`s own throne.
2. The OT saints are in the General Assembly awaiting their inheritance.
3. The Great Multitude are also in the General Assembly waiting for their inheritance.
4. The 144,000 are there in the GA also.
5. The martyrs of the trib. will be there in the GA too.

Marilyn.

The GWT is speaking about the final resurrection when Jesu comes. The first resurrection occurred 2000 years ago.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Hi SG,

God`s word specifically calls the first resurrection, the resurrection to life, for those being judged at the Great White Throne.


Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn

Not so.

Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life


25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Without being bodily resurrected we have confidence that we will not come under the judgment. Those who hear and believe today are covered and cleansed forever by his own blood, and the second death hath no power at all over us. His grace is sufficient for us Amen.

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years




The time now is for not coming into judgment. We have already passed from death to life and the second death ( GWT judgment ) is already avoided as the time now is to possess this blessed hope.



Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life


25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
 
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Marilyn C

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So, using your logic, we can conclude that THE beast with seven heads and ten horns mentioned in the book of Revelation is a literal beast with seven literal heads and ten literal horns?

Hi Spiritual Jew,

I was a bit sarcastic in my last reply, sorry.

Now God does tell us that those beasts are `kingdoms,` (Dan. 7: 23) so we know that the beast is not literal but a composite of those kingdoms.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn

Not so.

Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life


25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Without being bodily resurrected we have confidence that we will not come under the judgment. Those who hear and believe today are covered and cleansed forever by his own blood, and the second death hath no power at all over us. His grace is sufficient for us Amen.

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years




The time now is for not coming into judgment. We have already passed from death to life and the second death ( GWT judgment ) is already avoided as the time now is to possess this blessed hope.



Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life


25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Hi Jeff,

However John 5 was talking about `those in the graves.`

Marilyn.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi SG,

And scriptures for that?

Marilyn.

I have showed Scripture that proves the first resurrection occurred 2000 years ago. There are numerous scriptural proof-texts to corroborate that there is one final future judgment of mankind at the GWT in Rev 20.

· There is nowhere in Scripture that talk about "resurrection days" (plural).
· There is nowhere in Scripture that talk about "judgement days" (plural).
 
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